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  1. #1

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    I've just read a book called ' Jazz bebop blues guitar' which suggests playing minor 7th arpeggios a 5th above a dom 7th chord in blues. So for example if the I chord was G7 you play a Dm7 arpeggio above it. Or a Dm9 or Dm6.
    When you break this down in this example the Dm7 arpeggio is:
    D, F, A, C. If we now relate this to the G7 chord we get a spelling of 4 (C note) 5 (D note) 9 (A note) and b7 (F note) So this is really giving us some of the notes of G mixolydian?
    When we add in the 6th of Dm and the 9th we are adding the B note (3rd of G7) and the E ( 6th of G7). So now we have 3,4,5,6,b7,9 which is a rootless G Mixolydian?
    Am I correct so far?
    He then goes on to say you can do the same for the IV and the V chord i.e. play a m7 arp a fifth above each chord. So effectively playing Mixolydian (or partial Mixolydian) for each chord.
    Just wondering if my thinking on this was correct. He doesn't mention that this relates to Mixolydian in the book but says it evokes certain players such as Pat Martino.

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  3. #2

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    I'm not sure of the question, but it looks like you understand it.

    Think of it this way: There are 3 important arpeggios when playing mixolydian. a major triad off the b7, the major off the 1, and the minor off the 5th. These are triads WITHIN the scale that sound classic. Putting the arpeggios together don't make the scale, the scale contains them.

    Just a different frame of thought
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  4. #3

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    Min7b5 Arpeggio off the 3rd of the Dominant 7 Chord, as well.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I'm not sure of the question, but it looks like you understand it.

    Think of it this way: There are 3 important arpeggios when playing mixolydian. a major triad off the b7, the major off the 1, and the minor off the 5th. These are triads WITHIN the scale that sound classic. Putting the arpeggios together don't make the scale, the scale contains them.

    Just a different frame of thought
    ... or the 4 note arps instead of just the 3 ...

  6. #5

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    I know just enough music theory to be dangerous, but I think understand this. You can simplify this by looking at it this way: the dominant 7th is theoretically a V chord. A minor 7th chord up a 5th from a dominant 7th chord is therefore the ii chord. The ii and V are interchangeable.

    I learned this from the Mickey Baker book. Somebody correct me if I wrong.

  7. #6

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    The way I simplify the explanation for extensions is to suggest that any part of the diatonic 13th chord or arp can act as a substitute for the underlying chord. Works for me anyway...

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    ... or the 4 note arps instead of just the 3 ...
    ....yeah or just play the whole scale in 3rds....
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  9. #8

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    I don't know what a minor 7th scale is but if you mean playing the Dorian of the ii of V chord then that makes sense.

    In other words you're playing D Dorian (C maj scale) over G7. The point is that outlining a Dm7 chord over the G7 puts the emphasis on the G7 extensions, especially the 6/13th and 9th.

    Incidentally, if you sharpen the 7th note of the Dorian mode (so C becomes C#) then you're playing the G Lydian Dominant scale which is also effective.

    Or, simple version, just play Dm7 over G7 and see how it sounds different to playing G7 over G7.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I don't know what a minor 7th scale is but if you mean playing the Dorian of the ii of V chord then that makes sense.

    In other words you're playing D Dorian (C maj scale) over G7. The point is that outlining a Dm7 chord over the G7 puts the emphasis on the G7 extensions, especially the 6/13th and 9th.

    Incidentally, if you sharpen the 7th note of the Dorian mode (so C becomes C#) then you're playing the G Lydian Dominant scale which is also effective.

    Or, simple version, just play Dm7 over G7 and see how it sounds different to playing G7 over G7.
    Perhaps should have just said arpeggios not scale of minor 7th.
    But yes that makes sense that playing the Dm7 arps in this case is a way of highlighting the G7 extensions. Thanks

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I'm not sure of the question, but it looks like you understand it.

    Think of it this way: There are 3 important arpeggios when playing mixolydian. a major triad off the b7, the major off the 1, and the minor off the 5th. These are triads WITHIN the scale that sound classic. Putting the arpeggios together don't make the scale, the scale contains them.

    Just a different frame of thought
    Cool, like that idea, will give it some thought. Thanks

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DS71 View Post
    Min7b5 Arpeggio off the 3rd of the Dominant 7 Chord, as well.
    Nice! Cheers

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    The way I simplify the explanation for extensions is to suggest that any part of the diatonic 13th chord or arp can act as a substitute for the underlying chord. Works for me anyway...
    Is this just in relation to dom 7th chords? So you are basically saying you can use 1,3,5,7,9,13 (a 13th chord spelled out) over the underlying chord, yes?

  14. #13

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    Actually any diatonic chord! - so in place of (or over) 1 3 5 7 , you can play : 3 5 7 9, 5 7 9 11, 7 9 11 13.

    All these are very common substitutes.

  15. #14

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    Minor7, Minor6 or Min(Maj7)

    That's all the options you need for a dominant, when you add in tritone sub.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Actually any diatonic chord! - so in place of (or over) 1 3 5 7 , you can play : 3 5 7 9, 5 7 9 11, 7 9 11 13.

    All these are very common substitutes.
    makes sense, thanks

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Minor7, Minor6 or Min(Maj7)

    That's all the options you need for a dominant, when you add in tritone sub.
    Got it, cheers

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandcatcher View Post
    Perhaps should have just said arpeggios not scale of minor 7th.
    But yes that makes sense that playing the Dm7 arps in this case is a way of highlighting the G7 extensions. Thanks
    Sorry, beg pardon, I was rushing earlier and didn't read your post properly but it's apparently all sorted out now. Goody :-)

  19. #18

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    In case this isn't already clear:

    G13 and Dm13 have the same notes. D F A C G E B. All the white keys on the piano. Cmaj13, also. Same notes.

    You can extract groups of notes (groups of 2, 3, 4, 5 etc) and they all have the potential to sound consonant in the right situation, which would include Dm7 G7 Cmaj7.

    You can use triads or arps to add structure and interest. That way, you're not just noodling a Cmaj scale. Some people advocate specific triads over specific chords, generally to try to better outline the changes in the course of the solo. That way, the audience hears a certain relationship between the solo's melody and the chords. If you search this forum for "Warren Nunes" there are some threads covering his approach to this material simply and effectively.

    All of the above may sound pretty vanilla, but it doesn't have to. A great player can make consonant notes sound great with a good melody and good rhythmic content.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post

    All of the above may sound pretty vanilla, but it doesn't have to. A great player can make consonant notes sound great with a good melody and good rhythmic content.

    Yes, for an example of usage for "the family of 4" - see Sheryl Bailey on Bebop Dojo. It's basically related arp fragments up, and bebop scale fragments down. It's kinda Bebop 101...

  21. #20

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    Chords (most chords) are built in 3rds. Just keep on trucking (up in thirds). G B D F A C E G B. Pick the pieces, there is a G in there, a G7, a Bm7b5, a Dm, a Dm7, a F, a Fmaj7, a Am, a Am7. a C, Em. Lo and behold, every diatonic chord!
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post

    A great player can make consonant notes sound great with a good melody and good rhythmic content.
    I experienced this epiphany in the first few days with Jimmy Bruno's lessons.

  23. #22

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    I think the thing to realise is that every diatonic note works on a dominant, but the same is not true of the I chord.

    Learn to play in forward motion, that’s what separates our people who can actually play jazz from the noodlers. Not the pitch choices. The pitch choices are often pretty basic.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandcatcher View Post
    Cool, like that idea, will give it some thought. Thanks
    Sandcatcher, I highly recommend you pick up a copy of Garrison Fewell’s book Jazz Guitar Improvisation a Melodic Approach. Here’s an idea of what you’ll get:

    Ignorance is agony.



  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky View Post
    I experienced this epiphany in the first few days with Jimmy Bruno's lessons.
    I recall a video of his on JBGI where he played Bb Ionian against Bbmaj7 and sounded great. He constructed a good lick of just a few diatonic notes and played it with sizzling time.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    the thing to realise is that every diatonic note works on a dominant
    Trouble is, you don't want to be too diatonic on a dominant :-)

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Trouble is, you don't want to be too diatonic on a dominant :-)
    Why not?

  28. #27

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    I have absolutely no idea

  29. #28

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    Working through both of these books. Halfway through the first one. Next one is on deck.


    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02 View Post
    Sandcatcher, I highly recommend you pick up a copy of Garrison Fewell’s book Jazz Guitar Improvisation a Melodic Approach. Here’s an idea of what you’ll get:


  30. #29

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    I was taught in the context of a blues to take a Bebop dominant scale and build arpeggios from the 1/3/5 and b7 so you get-

    from 1 - dom 7
    from 3 - m7b5
    from 5 - m7
    from b7 - bmaj7

    which covers all the tones and extensions using arpeggios as a base.

    wrong approach?

    Will

  31. #30

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    That's what I do, right there. Especially if you just mean Maj7 on the last one, off the b7. IV across the V. Sometimes I play the IV across the ii V.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5 View Post
    I was taught in the context of a blues to take a Bebop dominant scale and build arpeggios from the 1/3/5 and b7 so you get-

    from 1 - dom 7
    from 3 - m7b5
    from 5 - m7
    from b7 - bmaj7

    which covers all the tones and extensions using arpeggios as a base.

    wrong approach?

    Will

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5 View Post
    I was taught in the context of a blues to take a Bebop dominant scale and build arpeggios from the 1/3/5 and b7 so you get-

    from 1 - dom 7
    from 3 - m7b5
    from 5 - m7
    from b7 - bmaj7

    which covers all the tones and extensions using arpeggios as a base.

    wrong approach?

    Will
    I teach this too. I think it’s fine, but there are more options.

    Basically you can look at the dominant scale (ie the diatonic scale on V) as a big ole repeating stack of thirds.

    1 3 5 b7 9 11 13 1 3 5 b7 etc

    And if you take any three notes you get a triad, and any four notes you get a seventh chord, and so on.

    So all the diatonic options are there. The four you mention are simply the first four options. Barry Harris teaches that any of these can be used freely...

    Anyway those four are a useful teaching tool. You can convert any chord type into a dominant and vice verse .

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think the thing to realise is that every diatonic note works on a dominant, but the same is not true of the I chord.
    Why not? Moving through the 11th as part of an arp extension sounds ok to me, just as long as the line resolves satisfactorily.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Why not? Moving through the 11th as part of an arp extension sounds ok to me, just as long as the line resolves satisfactorily.
    Yeah that’s because in that case you are still playing the dominant.

    You can do it if you know how to resolve.

    But then you can play literally anything if you know how to resolve.

  35. #34

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    Warren Nunes, and, apparently, others taught this...

    Two types of chords from the major scale. He called them I and II. I'd call them major and dominant.

    In a harmonized C major scale, Cmaj7, Em7 and Am7 are all major.

    Dm7 Fmaj7 and Am7 are dominant. Bm7b5 is dominant, but it's a little different.

    Now, in the other poster's example, basically, he's thinking G7 Bm7b5 Dm7 Fmaj7.
    For the dominants, that's G7, a rootless G9, G11/D and G11/F.

    Same as what he wrote, just another way to think about it. An advantage is that once you know the names in all 12 keys, it isn't just soloing, it's also substitution while comping.

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02 View Post
    Sandcatcher, I highly recommend you pick up a copy of Garrison Fewell’s book Jazz Guitar Improvisation a Melodic Approach. Here’s an idea of what you’ll get:

    Many thanks for the recommendation, will give it a look.

  37. #36
    Looks good, just ordered!

  38. #37

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    fewell's book is fantastic if wes is your man
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  39. #38

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    Fewell wrote two books, but they aren’t really meant as a series. The “Harmonic Method” book covers much of the same ground in its first chapters as “Melodic” but goes way beyond.

    The second book covers a lot of ground and is quite dense. In some ways the first book is easier to get started with. But if you want the whole package I would suggest skipping it and just getting his 2010 release.

    He died not too long after that book came out, which is really a shame. I think he had some really interesting ideas for building lines. But I sense he was just pulling together how to explain and teach his approach. I know I’ve been left with questions I wish he could answer.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Fewell wrote two books, but they aren’t really meant as a series. The “Harmonic Method” book covers much of the same ground in its first chapters as “Melodic” but goes way beyond.

    The second book covers a lot of ground and is quite dense. In some ways the first book is easier to get started with. But if you want the whole package I would suggest skipping it and just getting his 2010 release.

    He died not too long after that book came out, which is really a shame. I think he had some really interesting ideas for building lines. But I sense he was just pulling together how to explain and teach his approach. I know I’ve been left with questions I wish he could answer.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I learnt a lot from the first video posted! Look forward to more in the book.