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  1. #1

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    I'm learning "When Lights Are Low" and I'm doing the original bridge which is a series of 2-5-1's. But they are fairly quick, with the 2-5 being a half bar each, and then the 1 being a whole bar. So I'm wondering how people would approach this, and I'm finding it a little quick for my current skills.

    Just for reference, here's the bridge as I have it.

    |Ebm7 Ab7|Db |Gbm7 B7|E |
    |Am7 D7 |G |Gm7 C7 |Cm7 F7|

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  3. #2

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    How to play over fast 251's?


    Fast!


    But, more seriously, treat each 2-5 either as just the ii or just the V. Or don't play many notes. Or do a sort of chromatic sequence thing. Or look at some transcriptions and see what they did.

    But WLAL isn't fast at all, it's pretty slow! Or at least a very medium swing... which version are you going by?

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    How to play over fast 251's?


    Fast!


    But, more seriously, treat each 2-5 either as just the ii or just the V. Or don't play many notes. Or do a sort of chromatic sequence thing. Or look at some transcriptions and see what they did.

    But WLAL isn't fast at all, it's pretty slow! Or at least a very medium swing... which version are you going by?
    Like I mentioned, for me, it's quick (probably a better word) as I try to think thru that part of the song. My idea was to just play the V and resolve to the I, but I wasn't sure if there's some "rules of thumb" for how people might approach this sort of situation.

  5. #4

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    The ii and the V are really just the I.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    Like I mentioned, for me, it's quick (probably a better word) as I try to think thru that part of the song. My idea was to just play the V and resolve to the I, but I wasn't sure if there's some "rules of thumb" for how people might approach this sort of situation.
    No particular rule of thumb. Like I said before, you can either take each bar as all the ii, or all the V (before the M7s) or do some other thing with altered sounds like a b9. But the main thing is to find lines that ease neatly into each other. It would take a video to show you.

    Using the minor chord shapes as a guide:

    Say you started with an Ebm at the 6th fret, you could get from there to a DbM7 at the 4th. The 3rd of Db is F so you could shift up one to F#m and then down to a EM7 (G#m and/or C#m).

    Then, from G#m up to Am at the 5th, down to GM7. Then Gm and Cm at the 3rd... and so on.

    Sounds like this. Mind you, this is all diatonic, no nice b9's or anything.



    It depends how well you know the fingerboard, basically. Of course you could always noodle something in Db, then something in E, then something in G, then something in F, then something in Bb. It would work but it probably wouldn't sound much good.

    EDIT!

    By the way, are we talking about the same tune? I didn't know this tune and I've just found this lead sheet. The bridge looks very different despite that this one's in F.

    How to play over fast 251's?-lights-jpg
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-09-2019 at 12:32 AM.

  7. #6

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    I simplify almost everything to V-I. Tension-release.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-10-2019 at 04:14 AM.

  8. #7

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    How does it sound?

    See, I'd be wary about treating each segment as a tonal centre and playing alt sounds to each M7. I think I'd do some b9 sounds and then an F alt at the end.

    Something like that. But I also don't like to do it out of the tune's context. What the tune is affects it quite a lot. For me, anyway.

    (edit)

    And I'm not sure what tune we're talking about at the moment...!
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-09-2019 at 12:33 AM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    It depends how well you know the fingerboard, basically. Of course you could always noodle something in Db, then something in E, then something in G, then something in F, then something in Bb. It would work but it probably wouldn't sound much good.

    EDIT!

    By the way, are we talking about the same tune? I didn't know this tune and I've just found this lead sheet. The bridge looks very different despite that this one's in F.
    I come from years of noodling blues/rock, so I've taught myself to think solely in terms of "This is a blues in A, so play A". So one of my hurdles is learning to not just play in one key, switch to another, etc. Like you said, it doesn't sound good.

    And certainly I don't have to tell you that's not the the original bridge, right?

    I really love the Herb Ellis version of the tune, but I've known for years that it's not the one written by Benny Carter. If you listen to almost any singer, they use the original bridge as written by Carter. But Miles Davis is generally credited with re-writing the bridge and changing the standard for the song (Which is the one you you show). I think both are good in their own way.

    Do a search on youtube for the song, there's a great version from Sarah Vaughan (with some awesome backing from Barney Kessel) which is the original form.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I'm learning "When Lights Are Low" and I'm doing the original bridge which is a series of 2-5-1's. But they are fairly quick, with the 2-5 being a half bar each, and then the 1 being a whole bar. So I'm wondering how people would approach this, and I'm finding it a little quick for my current skills.

    Just for reference, here's the bridge as I have it.

    | Ebm7 Ab7|Db | Gbm7 B7|E |
    | Am7 D7 |G | Gm7 C7 | Cm7 F7|
    V-I
    |Ab7|Db |B7|E |
    |D7 |G |C7 |F7|

    or

    II-I
    |Ebm7 |Db |Gbm7 |E |
    |Am7 |G |Gm7 |Cm7|

    or (my favourite) IV-I
    |Gb^7 | Db^7 |A^7 | E^7
    | C^7 | G^7 | Bb^7 | C^7

    ^ = maj7

    Don't bother playing too much of I. Just a couple of chord tones will do. Major is jazz kryptonite.

    Here's a vid about it, on another ii-V heavy song:


  11. #10

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    Just get someone else to do it. Life's complicated enough already

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I come from years of noodling blues/rock, so I've taught myself to think solely in terms of "This is a blues in A, so play A". So one of my hurdles is learning to not just play in one key, switch to another, etc. Like you said, it doesn't sound good.

    And certainly I don't have to tell you that's not the the original bridge, right?

    I really love the Herb Ellis version of the tune, but I've known for years that it's not the one written by Benny Carter. If you listen to almost any singer, they use the original bridge as written by Carter. But Miles Davis is generally credited with re-writing the bridge and changing the standard for the song (Which is the one you you show). I think both are good in their own way.

    Do a search on youtube for the song, there's a great version from Sarah Vaughan (with some awesome backing from Barney Kessel) which is the original form.
    I listened to all those (and more) before I answered you!

    The answer's the same, though. Either minors or dominants, cut down the number of notes, make it fit the feel of the tune, etc etc.

    As I said, it's a question of how well you know the fingerboard. If you start with something dead easy you can build on it. As Christian said, a couple of notes per chord. Then you'll get into the idea and perhaps do more.

    But whatever, dive into it and just do something!

  13. #12

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    Bump for any thead that says jazz is too fast. It is too fast! Slow down!

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    V-I
    |Ab7|Db |B7|E |
    |D7 |G |C7 |F7|

    or

    II-I
    |Ebm7 |Db |Gbm7 |E |
    |Am7 |G |Gm7 |Cm7|

    or (my favourite) IV-I
    |Gb^7 | Db^7 |A^7 | E^7
    | C^7 | G^7 | Bb^7 | C^7

    ^ = maj7

    Don't bother playing too much of I. Just a couple of chord tones will do. Major is jazz kryptonite.

    What about taking that a step further and just playing IV iii for each?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomems View Post
    What about taking that a step further and just playing IV iii for each?
    True.

  16. #15
    I feel like sometimes people get warped out over the "Play everything as ii" ... or V etc. At a basic level it's this: Take any II-V line you like, and write it out as numbers (scale degrees of the chord of the moment). But write the whole thing out as if ALL of the pitches are an extension of the II chord (or V if you like).

    It's simply a way of organizing melodic material conceptionally at tempo. You're not pretending that one or the other doesn't exist or something. Not necessarily anyway. And you can play lines this way which actually address each chord in a pretty specific way as well. It's simply easier to conceptualize in-time.

    Of course, it goes without saying that you can do all that without writing anything down as well.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I feel like sometimes people get warped out over the "Play everything as ii" ... or V etc. At a basic level it's this: Take any II-V line you like, and write it out as numbers (scale degrees of the chord of the moment). But write the whole thing out as if ALL of the pitches are an extension of the II chord (or V if you like).

    It's simply a way of organizing melodic material conceptionally at tempo. You're not pretending that one or the other doesn't exist or something. Not necessarily anyway. And you can play lines this way which actually address each chord in a pretty specific way as well. It's simply easier to conceptualize in-time.

    Of course, it goes without saying that you can do all that without writing anything down as well.
    that's what I do. I think all dominant, but if i want ii i'll just make a big deal about the 4th degree
    White belt
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  18. #17

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    Just done this. It's basic swing, not many melodic lines, and the bridge is simplified to ii-IM7 arpeggios. There's a touch of F7alt. It doesn't need to be complex.

    But I suppose it could be!


  19. #18

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    Whenever I try to write things out beforehand I find it sounds contrived and I can't play it naturally. It's all on the fly with me. Probably shows too :-)

  20. #19

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    I don't know if anyone's up for it but I'd quite like to hear a version of that bridge where the solo's been reduced only to V - I's. Just to see what you do with it.

    Won't hold my breath though

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I don't know if anyone's up for it but I'd quite like to hear a version of that bridge where the solo's been reduced only to V - I's. Just to see what you do with it.

    Won't hold my breath though
    I spent last night doing what you posted earlier, ii-IM7 arp's. I might try V-I tonight and see not only how those sound, but how a mix of both might sound.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    V-I

    or (my favourite) IV-I
    |Gb^7 | Db^7 |A^7 | E^7
    | C^7 | G^7 | Bb^7 | C^7

    ^ = maj7
    If I could ask a question here. Are you meaning to just use the IV major of each ii-V?

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I spent last night doing what you posted earlier, ii-IM7 arp's. I might try V-I tonight and see not only how those sound, but how a mix of both might sound.
    Goody :-)

    I asked for a demo of just V-I's because, as far as the V's are concerned, I don't see what can be done with them unless they're considerably altered. Play the mixolydian? Then you're basically just using the major scale. So unless they become 7b9, 7alt, 7+, 7#9, etc, etc, I don't see what the point is.

    But it's you who've asked for this info and, if the V's are going to be so altered... well, you can't do it. At least, that's how I've understood it.

    But the ii's can very easily be made into very nice lines... but we won't bang on about that

    NB: The M7's are very like minors so that idea could be very productive. I'd certainly support that.

  24. #23

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    I'll answer for Christian here to save time. According to his diagram it's one every bar, so:

    GbM7 - DbM7 - AM7 - EM7
    CM7 - GM7 - BbM7 - CM7

    That last CM7 gives a neat altered sound. Good trick :-)

    But you might find it tricky to not make them sound disconnected, that's the only thing.

  25. #24

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    In the book Introduction to Jazz Guitar Improvisation, the author has one work on arps over common chord situations which is a preparation for writing licks over common chord situations. You do this to develop vocabulary and you can use the licks verbatium or as launching points for coming up with variations.

    ii-V-I is a common situation in the book and you work on both four beats each and two beats each. You start with consecutive eigth notes for both the arps and the licks. It was extremely useful for me, the book and the exercises.

    For example, this is me doing some lick writing:



    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  26. #25

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    This is what I came up with using a V-I approach.



    And FWIW, this is what I did the night before with ii-I


    WLAL ii - I by Bahnzo | Free Listening on SoundCloud


    For the short ii-V's at the end I played the V for the first bar, then a melodic minor thing for the second.

  27. #26

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    One thing worth trying is to strum the chords at tempo and scat sing a solo. When you sing something you like, figure out how to play it.

    For a slightly analytical view, consider ii V I in C. That's Dm7 G7 Cmaj.

    Let's throw out the Dm7 and just think for a moment about G7.

    One thing you can do is think about G13. That's all the white keys. G B D F A C E.

    You're going to resolve to Cmaj, but let's think about Cmaj13. Same notes. All white keys.

    The difference is that G7 is kinda screwed up by the C note. And, Cmaj is kind of screwed up by the F. (In reality, advanced players can make any note work).

    So, one simple way to play through it is leave the C out of the G7 and leave the F out of the Cmaj. All the other notes will work for both chords, more or less. The chord tones sound very inside, the other notes a little less so.

    G7 now draws on G A B D F E.
    Cmaj draws on C E G A B D.

    One important sound of the V-I is that F moving to the E.

    So, now you could figure on playing a few notes from G7, being sure to include the F. Followed by a few notes from Cmaj, omitting the F and playing an E.

    Too much theory, but the kernel is that the notes are similar -- with that F - E movement being most critical. Strum the chords and scat sing lines that include that movement.

    After you're bored with that, you can recognize that the comping instrument is going to have the F E thing so you don't have to do it. At that point, loop the chords, scat sing anything and see what you like.

    Of course, I gave the example as ii V I in C. Your tune moves from one key to another. You'll want to make sure that the transitions between keys are smooth. So, the last note of one key center should, arguably, be a neighbor to the first note of the next key. It's jazz, so you don't have to do that, but it's worth having it in your arsenal.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 04-10-2019 at 06:55 PM.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    I simplify almost everything to V-I. Tension-release.
    or ii7- bII7-I7, or....just bII7-I7

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I'll answer for Christian here to save time. According to his diagram it's one every bar, so:

    GbM7 - DbM7 - AM7 - EM7
    CM7 - GM7 - BbM7 - CM7

    That last CM7 gives a neat altered sound. Good trick :-)

    But you might find it tricky to not make them sound disconnected, that's the only thing.
    You credit me with too much. That was a mistake :-)

    Should have written EbM7

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    This is what I came up with using a V-I approach.



    And FWIW, this is what I did the night before with ii-I


    WLAL ii - I by Bahnzo | Free Listening on SoundCloud


    For the short ii-V's at the end I played the V for the first bar, then a melodic minor thing for the second.
    Excellent! Jazzy! Tuneful! I wonder why nobody's said anything? Strange people.

    Good for you.

    Well, that's it then, you don't need any more lessons :-)

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You credit me with too much. That was a mistake :-)

    Should have written EbM7
    You mean the last CM7? But I liked that :-)

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    You mean the the last CM7? But I liked that :-)
    Hah, many a cool chord discovered by accident.

  33. #32

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    The nat E sort of slips by and the b5 B works a treat

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    This is what I came up with using a V-I approach.



    And FWIW, this is what I did the night before with ii-I


    WLAL ii - I by Bahnzo | Free Listening on SoundCloud


    For the short ii-V's at the end I played the V for the first bar, then a melodic minor thing for the second.
    Hey Bahnzo, that's solid playing, man. How long did you say you've been learning jazz?

    I particularly like the warm tone and the phrasing and rhythm you used, very good stuff.

    The only thing I can think to flag up is a couple of notes are a teensy bit rushed maybe due to technique/articulation (frankly I have similar issues) but in general you have a nice pocket and feel for the music, so I think this is stuff that will work itself out.

    Keep doing what you are doing! Clearly it's got you going in the right direction.

  35. #34

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    Christian -

    By the way, when you're playing your IV idea do you just arpeggiate these M7s or slip in other notes, like the 9 and 6? Or play lines from the current key? Or combine the IV triad with the V?

    I've used that IV idea over a 3-chord blues. Works OK in small doses.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Christian -

    By the way, when you're playing your IV idea do you just arpeggiate these M7s or slip in other notes, like the 9 and 6? Or play lines from the current key? Or combine the IV triad with the V?

    I've used that IV idea over a 3-chord blues. Works OK in small doses.
    I usually focus on the chord tones of IVmaj7, using passing tones and chromatics to taste. I usually use it in isolation because it's such a strong sound. Basically, we are playing a V9sus4 sound in combination with the bass. You can also see it as an extension/upper structure of the IIm7 chord. Or just ignore that and play that sound!

    You can also extend it further, to IVmaj9 (or use VIm7, very common sound too on IIm7.)

    It can get a bit much...

    The way I tend to use it is resolve it into the target chord (e.g. into C if we start on F.) Just an enclosure or something should work. You can use a F dim 7 chord or a bit of the G altered scale or what ever if there's time.

    One of my favourite moves is to play the minor third before resolving, so we go.

    Fmaj7 Fm(maj7) C

    So referencing the line A-Ab-G which you hear all over jazz.

    For instance on Dm7 G7 Em7

    Sounds very elegant and you can get that sense of resolution very quickly, which is great for rapid changes.

    Also try flatting the other notes of the Fmaj7 chord. They all work if you can resolve into the next chord. You can get some very hip sounds.

  37. #36

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    I'd focus on the I's first. Know where you're going. When you really see those I's you should also see the connected ii/V. At least you should aim to

    E.g. arpeggiate Dbmaj7 - Emaj7 - Gmaj7 (Then maybe add C7 and F7 at the end)
    Then add in more scale notes. Let your ears decide which ones fit. Try to anticipate, e.g. move to the next center on beat 4. Try to visualize Emaj while you're at Dbmaj etc.
    When those centers are really stuck you can add in more complex variations of ii/V.

  38. #37

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    It can get a bit much...
    It's okay, I've got it :-)

    Thanks. I use all those things already. I think it was the unfamiliar keys that were distracting. But if we play with the FM7 then we're really not playing the IV any more over the G7... it becomes the usual standard move over the V.

    Bahnzo might benefit from this:

    1. FM7 - Fo (Abo) - CM9
    2. FM7 - (Fm) - CM6
    3. FM7 - G7alt - CM7
    4. FM7 - (G9?) - CM9#11

    Sorry, quality's not good on this one.

    Last edited by ragman1; 04-10-2019 at 11:25 AM.

  39. #38

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    Bahnzo -

    See above. There are plenty of other things to do over a 251, of course, but it can get extreme.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Excellent! Jazzy! Tuneful! I wonder why nobody's said anything? Strange people.

    Good for you.

    Well, that's it then, you don't need any more lessons :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hey Bahnzo, that's solid playing, man. How long did you say you've been learning jazz?

    I particularly like the warm tone and the phrasing and rhythm you used, very good stuff.

    The only thing I can think to flag up is a couple of notes are a teensy bit rushed maybe due to technique/articulation (frankly I have similar issues) but in general you have a nice pocket and feel for the music, so I think this is stuff that will work itself out.

    Keep doing what you are doing! Clearly it's got you going in the right direction.
    Thanks both. Keep in mind what I played was composed. I sat down and figured out what I thought sounded good and wrote that down and played it. I have a ways to go with being able to improvise that well. I really need to find the fortitude to sit down and play arpeggios for hours (err days) and get them under my fingers well enough to be able to pull them up at will.

    I've been learning jazz all my life! But only trying to play it for the last couple months. I used to be a DJ at a jazz radio, host events, etc in my younger years. So it's something I've always had in my head. I think I have a decent ear for it, but my problem is translating what I hear in my head to the instrument.

    But I feel like I'm making progress. Especially with all the resources available now due to the internet (even tho it feels like drinking from a fire hose sometimes). And being able to ask questions and get feedback from people at places like this and others is something invaluable. So thanks to both you and everyone else who takes the time. It really is amazing how different learning music is now than what it was 20/30 years ago.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hah, many a cool chord discovered by accident.
    I think in certain situations, like the ending of the bridge here, it seems you can almost play anything that's dissonant as long as you resolve it to the Bb of the chorus. Maybe not really that simple, but that's the idea anyways.

  42. #41

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    pentatonics work good too. D-7 G7 Cmaj7, I use E minor pentatonic, over all three chords. I choose E minor pentatonic because it doesnt have F or C, the two avoid notes you have to worry about (sus4 of G7, and 11 of Cmaj7).

    I like this move alot too, (D-7) A minor pentatonic, (G7alt) Bb minor pentatonic and (Cmaj7#11) B minor pentatonic. The Bb minor pentatonic comes from the altered scale, giving you g7alt. The B minor gives you the #11 over the Maj7 chord. The pentatonic scale moves up a half step each chord, all you gotta do is blues out and slide up a fret each chord.

  43. #42

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    Bahnzo -

    get them under my fingers
    That's all. Do that bridge in several different keys. A lot of fingerings are shiftable. Know your shapes, arps, and what you can do over them. After a while it's like tying your shoelace :-)

    I've been learning jazz all my life!
    I wondered what was going on. Those lines came from a jazz mind, not a rock/blues mind. So you have it. Thank your lucky stars!

    I think in certain situations, like the ending of the bridge here, it seems you can almost play anything that's dissonant as long as you resolve it to the Bb of the chorus.
    Spot on. It's amazing what a V before a I will tolerate. Which doesn't mean it'll take anything at all.

    thanks etc
    No problem. So nice to talk to a receptive and willing mind.

  44. #43

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    Speaking of the adventures of the Cm7th...

    There are lots of things that will throw you, among them are looking for two-fives trying to find scales to play "over" the chords. With a song like this, with the bridge you have, what I do is listen first to make sure the given chords are right. The first thing I noticed listening to the Sarah Vaughn version was that the Cm7 you have is not played there, but the actual stuff is very nice, really the high point of the turnaround. This is the kind of stuff from which ideas come.

    From the Am7 of the bridge:

    |Am7 D7 |Gmaj7 |Gm7 C13 |AbM7sus2 F9 Dm7 Cm7| Bbmaj7...

    That AbM7sus2 (if I'm naming it correctly) might be either [x 11 13 12 11 x] or [x x 6 8 8 6] depending on where you are, sounds like the Dm7 and Cm7 are being ghosted on their low notes...

    The point is to notice that a straight two-five of Cm7- F7 going into Bbmaj7 is being slightly re-harmonized in a very nice and subtle way. When you see things like this you want to think of how your lines could describe this, whats tests you might perform to answer the first wave of questions:

    - does a line that describes the re-harmonization still work over the straight two-five?
    - will it work over any others of the two-fives?
    - do "regular" two-five lines work with the re-harmonized chords?
    - do the vocal melody lines offer any hints (does she ever sing hints of the re-harmonization)?
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by joel paul View Post
    pentatonics work good too. D-7 G7 Cmaj7, I use E minor pentatonic, over all three chords. I choose E minor pentatonic because it doesnt have F or C, the two avoid notes you have to worry about (sus4 of G7, and 11 of Cmaj7).

    I like this move alot too, (D-7) A minor pentatonic, (G7alt) Bb minor pentatonic and (Cmaj7#11) B minor pentatonic. The Bb minor pentatonic comes from the altered scale, giving you g7alt. The B minor gives you the #11 over the Maj7 chord. The pentatonic scale moves up a half step each chord, all you gotta do is blues out and slide up a fret each chord.
    That's an interesting way to think of it. Do you have a way of thinking of the changes(I mean shortcut) that lead you to think of the E minor pentatonic over that?

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Speaking of the adventures of the Cm7th...

    There are lots of things that will throw you, among them are looking for two-fives trying to find scales to play "over" the chords. With a song like this, with the bridge you have, what I do is listen first to make sure the given chords are right. The first thing I noticed listening to the Sarah Vaughn version was that the Cm7 you have is not played there, but the actual stuff is very nice, really the high point of the turnaround. This is the kind of stuff from which ideas come.
    I never noticed if they changed the later part of the bridge in that version, good catch. But reharminizing is pretty far down my list. I really only used the Sarah Vaughan version to learn the melody from a singer's perspective. The fact that Barney Kessel plays some hip little chord lines here and there was a bonus.

  46. #45

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    Penatonics in jazz, check of Chick's solo:

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  47. #46

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    a way of thinking of the changes (I mean shortcut)
    Yes, but be warned, you can't survive on pentatonics. They're probably more suited to rock guitar.

    When I first discovered this (many moons ago) I thought whoopee, a quick way to get those jazzy sounds! Of course, there's no such thing. Far better to think of these subs as shapes and/or arpeggios and find lines that work. Or use them very sparingly. There are no pents for diminished and augmented sounds.

    If you check out that example above by joel paul of Am - Bbm - Bm, in effect you're playing Dm9 - G7alt - CM7#11. At least, that's the idea.

    Over C major:

    Em pent (M7 sound)
    Am pent (M6 sound)
    Bm pent (Lydian sound)
    Cm pent (Blues sound)


    Over D minor:

    Dm pent (m7 sound/blues sound)
    Am pent (m9 sound)
    Em pent (m6 sound)


    Over G7:

    Dm pent (sus4 sound)
    Em pent (13th sound)
    Fm pent (b9 sound)
    Am pent (4ths sound)
    Bbm pent (altered sound)
    Gm pent (blues sound)

    Over Bm7b5:

    Dm pent (m7b5 sound)
    Em pent (m9b5 sound)


    Over a Major 2-5-1:

    Em and Am pentatonic can be played over Dm7 – G7 – CM7.


    Over a minor 2-5-1:

    Bm7b5 (Dm or Em) – E7b9 (Dm or Gm) – Am7 (Am or Bm)

  48. #47

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    That's an interesting way to think of it. Do you have a way of thinking of the changes(I mean shortcut) that lead you to think of the E minor pentatonic over that?
    I choose E minor pentatonic over D-7 G7 Cmaj7 because it doesnt have the F or C, the two notes that might give you trouble over fast ii Vs ( C against G7, and 11 against Cmaj7). But you can play all three pentatonics man (Am Em Dm). But like ragman said, you dont want to play pentatonics all the time, might get boring. Theres no real shortcut man, the reality is you gotta know your modes, your pentatonics, your arpeggios all around the fretboard. Im still working on that myself. I still get lost on the fretboard but i work on improving everyday. Years and Years of practice.

  49. #48

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    Years and Years of practice.
    Sad but true. Or lots of fun, depending how you look at it :-)

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Sad but true. Or lots of fun, depending how you look at it :-)
    I try to consider myself more of a "practicer" than a "player." I had a music teacher who instilled that in us. If we practice more than we play then we're practicers, and that's just what we do.

    depends what your goals are and what you enjoy
    White belt
    My Youtube

  51. #50

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    @ragman @joe I might start a thread about fretboard visualisation, Im curious to see how you guys visualise and navigate through the chords., And not get lost on the fretboard.