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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by joel paul View Post
    @ragman @joe I might start a thread about fretboard visualisation, Im curious to see how you guys visualise and navigate through the chords., And not get lost on the fretboard.
    Not everyone uses visual strategies to play music; some use verbal strategies, those of us that play by ear may not use either visual or verbal... I use audial strategies.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Not everyone uses visual strategies to play music; some use verbal strategies, those of us that play by ear may not use either visual or verbal... I use audial strategies.
    White belt
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  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by joel paul View Post
    @ragman @joe I might start a thread about fretboard visualisation, Im curious to see how you guys visualise and navigate through the chords., And not get lost on the fretboard.
    Who says I don't get lost on the fretboard?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by joel paul View Post
    I choose E minor pentatonic over D-7 G7 Cmaj7 because it doesnt have the F or C, the two notes that might give you trouble over fast ii Vs ( C against G7, and 11 against Cmaj7). But you can play all three pentatonics man (Am Em Dm). But like ragman said, you dont want to play pentatonics all the time, might get boring. Theres no real shortcut man, the reality is you gotta know your modes, your pentatonics, your arpeggios all around the fretboard. Im still working on that myself. I still get lost on the fretboard but i work on improving everyday. Years and Years of practice.
    E minor is essentially a static choice. To me that misses the essence of 2 5 1. It will work, even sound great, but it won't create any movement. It will sound kind of floating, and relaxed, which is cool, but if you use this type of option all the time, your playing won't sound dynamic.

    The thing to focus on with a II-V-I is that it is a movement from relative instability to stability. It's a resolution towards a target point.

    You are not obliged to make this resolution at the same time as the written changes, or even to make it at all, but a true changes player must be able create a sense of independent movement and resolution in your playing. This sounds high falutin', but it can be as simple as playing F --> E or A --> Ab --> G...

    One great piece of advice I always bear in mind is 'let the dominant dominate.' The tonic chord - C or E penta on C, or whatever, is a target point, nothing more. The final note of the Dm7 G7 bar links to the Cmaj7 resolving note by a step or half step.

    In practice I find pentatonics a tricky tool to use in this way (probably because I haven't studied them enough). Here's some examples:

    How to play over fast 251's?-pentatonic-ii-v-i-jpg

    The first example here shows the sort of thing I would normally play (bop language) I have suggested a couple of pentatonic ideas using one scale each for the II-V-I - the second contains harmonic clashes against the Dm7 chord.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-12-2019 at 06:18 AM.

  6. #55

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    Absolutely. One problem with the Em or Am trick over the 2-5 is that they belong to the wrong 'family', i.e. the major family, not the dominant family.

    But, as Christian said, it sounds okay over certain tunes because of the floaty feel but doesn't quite nail it. Dm is much better and then Bbm for altered. But it's much better, of course, to play it properly with a G lyd dom (D mel m) or G alt (Ab mel m). But we knew that :-)

    Incidentally, to those not familiar with the alt ideas, it's Bbm pentatonic but Ab melodic minor scale. It's a sort of anomaly.

  7. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    By the way, are we talking about the same tune? I didn't know this tune and I've just found this lead sheet. The bridge looks very different despite that this one's in F.

    Attachment 61386
    The OP is talking about the original version. The lead sheet you've posted is the Miles Davis version. He changed the bridge.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodinFan View Post
    The OP is talking about the original version. The lead sheet you've posted is the Miles Davis version. He changed the bridge.
    I found versions like that, just transposing up and playing the same thing for the bridge... I think this might be the only tune that I've heard that does that (or that so many have done to this tune).
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by GodinFan View Post
    The OP is talking about the original version. The lead sheet you've posted is the Miles Davis version. He changed the bridge.
    I know, we've already done all that :-)

  10. #59

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    How are you getting on, Bahnzo?

    Were you in the Bahnzo Dog Doo-Dah Band?

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    How are you getting on, Bahnzo?

    Were you in the Bahnzo Dog Doo-Dah Band?
    I'm still here. I learned a neat little trick a little by accident the other night. I was reading some stuff about Bird, and it was mentioned he pioneered a little trick for V chords that resolve, which they called a "3 to b9", so I figured out how to play it as a 3-5-b7-b9 lick (which seemed prudent) and it's so nice, all my lines will sound like this for the next couple weeks until I reign myself back in.

    Which is to mean, it sounds great on WLAL both for the faster V-I's, but also the final bar of the bridge to resolve back to the chorus.

  12. #61

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    The 3 to b9 leap is a great idea... it will be recognised by every jazz player in the universe :-)

    Are we ready for another sample of your playing yet? After the last pleasant surprise I suspect we're ready for anything!

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I'm still here. I learned a neat little trick a little by accident the other night. I was reading some stuff about Bird, and it was mentioned he pioneered a little trick for V chords that resolve, which they called a "3 to b9", so I figured out how to play it as a 3-5-b7-b9 lick (which seemed prudent) and it's so nice, all my lines will sound like this for the next couple weeks until I reign myself back in.

    Which is to mean, it sounds great on WLAL both for the faster V-I's, but also the final bar of the bridge to resolve back to the chorus.
    Do understand this correctly? Are they actually claiming that Charlie Parker pioneered resolving diminished seventh chords as a sub for dominants?

    Anyway, great move, I use it all the time.

    It's kind of a swiss army knife one size fits all way of connecting one chord to another. It's basically impossible to overuse, just practice all the different inversions connecting to all the chord tones, with chromatics etc as well as the example you gave.

  14. #63

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    The 3-b9 "trick" goes back at least to Bach but Parker certainly made a lot of mileage out of that move. I hear it mostly in his playing as an expansion of the descending harmonic minor scale (sorry Mark Levine!). Here are two examples from Bird's minor tune, Segment (the second example is actually from its altar ego, Diverse).

    In Example 1, a pivot up the octave from the 3rd to the b9 is followed by chromatic targeting to the 5th and finally an interspersed descending minor arpeggio. Example 2 reverses the procedure: the 3rd to b9 change is filled out via an ascending diminished 7th arpeggio with a simple target to round out the line.

    Incidentally, the same approach can work for a major ii-V-I if a descending harmonic major scale is employed.

    How to play over fast 251's?-3-b9-jpeg

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Are they actually claiming that Charlie Parker pioneered resolving diminished seventh chords as a sub for dominants?
    I took it with a grain of salt, because I've learned over the years claims like this are often misguided. But like you said, it sounds nice, so I'll let Parker have it. He didn't do much else in music.....

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    The 3 to b9 leap is a great idea... it will be recognised by every jazz player in the universe :-)

    Are we ready for another sample of your playing yet? After the last pleasant surprise I suspect we're ready for anything!
    I actually just finished my take on When Lights Are Low. I'll post it in whatever the "watch what I can do!" forum is called here.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    The 3-b9 "trick" goes back at least to Bach but Parker certainly made a lot of mileage out of that move. I hear it mostly in his playing as an expansion of the descending harmonic minor scale (sorry Mark Levine!). Here are two examples from Bird's minor tune, Segment (the second example is actually from its altar ego, Diverse).

    In Example 1, a pivot up the octave from the 3rd to the b9 is followed by chromatic targeting to the 5th and finally an interspersed descending minor arpeggio. Example 2 reverses the procedure: the 3rd to b9 change is filled out via an ascending diminished 7th arpeggio with a simple target to round out the line.

    Incidentally, the same approach can work for a major ii-V-I if a descending harmonic major scale is employed.

    How to play over fast 251's?-3-b9-jpeg
    I hear a lot of the minor key bop language as syncopated Bach. Take things like the middle 8 of Night in Tunisia. Straighten that out and you have a line Bach might have written.

    In this sense although harmonic minor is common in bop the aug 2nd leap from b6 to 7 in the scale is managed in a way similar to classical music. It doesnt sound idiomatic to this music any more than it does to Vivaldi. It’s fine in the examples you posted when we have an arpeggio, or it passes straight through the scale. But if you listen closely there are times when it sounds a bit odd to the style.

    So we use natural minor to smooth out that jump where it sounds a little funny usually when we do something like a stepwise b6 7 b6 (b2 3 b2 from the perspective of the V chord) we change to b6 b7 b6 (b2 b3 b2) This is the origin of V7#9 harmony in jazz.

    So the 3 to b9 leap is another way to manage that jump. Take the first phrase of Bach’s Two Part Invention #1 or the B of Tunisia for instance. Or your second example of course.

    I don’t see much use of the melodic minor to do the same job. Something Bach is known for. Maybe someone has an example from bop?

    I don’t really use harmonic major as a concept except in very specific circumstances (cos it’s just another scale and not a very good sounding one melodically) usually a modal interchange from minor on the ii and V to major on I.

    However if you do use the harmonic major you need to be careful about the aug 2nd leap in exactly the same way as with harmonic minor.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-18-2019 at 03:00 AM.

  18. #67

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    In terms of the history, while Bird can’t be credited with the invention (two part or otherwise) of this melodic feature let alone the use of dim as a sub for dom, it is a characteristic element of his style. Where an earlier player such as Lester young may have played within the key - for instance Em6 on an A7 in C major, Bird is liable to use the dim7 almost every time.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I hear a lot of the minor key bop language as syncopated Bach. Take things like the middle 8 of Night in Tunisia. Straighten that out and you have a line Bach might have written.

    In this sense although harmonic minor is common in bop the aug 2nd leap from b6 to 7 in the scale is managed in a way similar to classical music. It doesnt sound idiomatic to this music any more than it does to Vivaldi. It’s fine in the examples you posted when we have an arpeggio, or it passes straight through the scale. But if you listen closely there are times when it sounds a bit odd to the style.

    So we use natural minor to smooth out that jump where it sounds a little funny usually when we do something like a stepwise b6 7 b6 (b2 3 b2 from the perspective of the V chord) we change to b6 b7 b6 (b2 b3 b2) This is the origin of V7#9 harmony in jazz.

    So the 3 to b9 leap is another way to manage that jump. Take the first phrase of Bach’s Two Part Invention #1 or the B of Tunisia for instance. Or your second example of course.

    I don’t see much use of the melodic minor to do the same job. Something Bach is known for. Maybe someone has an example from bop?

    I don’t really use harmonic major as a concept except in very specific circumstances (cos it’s just another scale and not a very good sounding one melodically) usually a modal interchange from minor on the ii and V to major on I.

    However if you do use the harmonic major you need to be careful about the aug 2nd leap in exactly the same way as with harmonic minor.
    The harmonic minor is certainly an unwieldy beast from a melodic point of view. However, it's interesting how often the 3-b9 jump comes up over a minor ii-V-i in Parker's improvisations where the line is exclusively derived from the harmonic minor scale. I picked Segment for convenience as it's in a minor key but that move is very common throughout his recordings.

    As you point out, the natural minor is more user-friendly. The b9-#9-b9 upper mordent over a V chord usually resolves to the 5th degree of the i minor but could equally work as a 4-5-4 resolution to the 3rd degree of the relative major.

    On that point, for me, one striking aspect of Bird's genius is how he creates melodic figures and devices that can be rolled out in multiple contexts. Taking a rhythmic reduction from my first main example, notice that the line can be played over the original changes (actually, a kind of modal interchange in the opposite direction), the more common minor to major I resolution - a la Night and Day - or regular minor or major ii-V-Is. It also sounds great over a relative major ii-V-I.

    How to play over fast 251's?-short-ii-v-i-jpeg

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    The harmonic minor is certainly an unwieldy beast from a melodic point of view. However, it's interesting how often the 3-b9 jump comes up over a minor ii-V-i in Parker's improvisations where the line is exclusively derived from the harmonic minor scale. I picked Segment for convenience as it's in a minor key but that move is very common throughout his recordings.
    Yeah, I think this is an area where it really pays to think melodically rather than harmonically - kind of like Martino’s Minor topic thing.

    As you point out, the natural minor is more user-friendly. The b9-#9-b9 upper mordent over a V chord usually resolves to the 5th degree of the i minor but could equally work as a 4-5-4 resolution to the 3rd degree of the relative major.
    Yeah, I find it hard to think in natural minor, harmonic minor partly cos it’s a bit basic - I mean to are talking about melodic lines not scales, but also because that’s not what the function is - this isn’t over the tonic function it’s over the dominant... it’s actually hard to find good language for that.

    Aside from Barry Harris’s bVII Dominant down to the third of the V thing (which makes more sense than it sounds because it allows you to use all of the dominant language you use in Major in the minor key) - one way to look at it is that the 3rd of the V chord (7th of the scale) allows you to change the scale from a subdominant sound (IIm7b5) to Dominant (V)

    On that point, for me, one striking aspect of Bird's genius is how he creates melodic figures and devices that can be rolled out in multiple contexts. Taking a rhythmic reduction from my first main example, notice that the line can be played over the original changes (actually, a kind of modal interchange in the opposite direction), the more common minor to major I resolution - a la Night and Day - or regular minor or major ii-V-Is. It also sounds great over a relative major ii-V-I.

    How to play over fast 251's?-short-ii-v-i-jpeg
    Yes absolutely, I’ve always felt a great improviser maximises application of material over sheer amount of material. This is what all the NYC guys seem to practice.

    Charlie Parker saw every ii chord as potentially m7b5 and every dominant as potentially altered.

    That incidentally is one reason why Barry’s approach is better than more common CST approaches IMO, it encourages the student to focus on different ways to apply dominant (and later minor) language in multiple different situations. It changes the emphasis to how you resolve rather than playing different things on different chord colours.

  21. #70

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    Bahnzo -

    I don't know if this would interest you. This is Autumn Leaves by Jimmy Raney. Multiple 2-5s and all that, major and minor.

    Of course it's masterful playing and it's fast. But the point is, since you read notation, to see how he plays it. A combination of scales and arpeggios, altered notes here and there, and so on.

    It sort of follows the melody but not quite. But one thing that stands out is the phrasing - his ability to cross bars, start in the middle of bars, and all that. It's incredibly difficult.

    Just for interest :-)


  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Bahnzo -

    I don't know if this would interest you. This is Autumn Leaves by Jimmy Raney. Multiple 2-5s and all that, major and minor.
    Ahh, yes. Jimmy and his son Doug. I actually just got a couple Doug albums. They both are kind of how I "think" when I hear a jazz line. I've considered over the years that my head hears a lot of bebop when I sing over chords, and they are both good.

    I'm unsure what I'm doing next. I need to do arpeggios and learn those I think, so I'm trying to force myself there. But to be honest, I hate practice. Allen Iverson and I agree in that. I like learning songs and learning their structure, so I'm also going back to the Grant Green song I posted about here earlier and re-examining it. I really like how he uses the harmonic minor in the song. It's still really an eye opener for me on how to approach the blues.

  23. #72

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    Bahnzo, if you're still interested in working over the WLAL bridge ii-V-Is, be aware that in the first three instances, they move up by minor 3rds. It can sound too predictable if you follow that same pattern with your lines. Try playing phrases in one area of the neck and connect each statement as smoothly as possible. Here's an example where phrases are mostly linked by a semitone and each ii-V-I begins on a different scale degree:

    How to play over fast 251's?-wlal-jpeg
    Last edited by PMB; 04-21-2019 at 04:53 AM.

  24. #73

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    Bahnzo -

    But to be honest, I hate practice
    Ah, a true player! Join the club. I don't think I've ever 'practiced' in my life. Too mechanical. But I do play a few things over and over and do experiments.

    Um... which Grant Green blues was that? Or is it on a different thread?

    EDIT!

    Got it, it's on another thread... hang on... :-)

    More edit

    Oh, Tracin' Tracy. We did tons of it, I'd completely forgotten it! Life is strange, especially when you're 103 like me

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Bahnzo, if you're still interested in working over the WLAL bridge ii-V-Is, be aware that in the first three instances, they move up by minor 3rds. It can sound too predictable if you follow that same pattern with your lines. Try playing phrases in one area of the neck and connect each statement as smoothly as possible. Here's an example where phrases are mostly linked by a semitone and each ii-V-I begins on a different scale degree:
    Interesting. I'll sit down tomorrow and give those a whirl and see what's what.