The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 26 to 50 of 74
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    One thing worth trying is to strum the chords at tempo and scat sing a solo. When you sing something you like, figure out how to play it.

    For a slightly analytical view, consider ii V I in C. That's Dm7 G7 Cmaj.

    Let's throw out the Dm7 and just think for a moment about G7.

    One thing you can do is think about G13. That's all the white keys. G B D F A C E.

    You're going to resolve to Cmaj, but let's think about Cmaj13. Same notes. All white keys.

    The difference is that G7 is kinda screwed up by the C note. And, Cmaj is kind of screwed up by the F. (In reality, advanced players can make any note work).

    So, one simple way to play through it is leave the C out of the G7 and leave the F out of the Cmaj. All the other notes will work for both chords, more or less. The chord tones sound very inside, the other notes a little less so.

    G7 now draws on G A B D F E.
    Cmaj draws on C E G A B D.

    One important sound of the V-I is that F moving to the E.

    So, now you could figure on playing a few notes from G7, being sure to include the F. Followed by a few notes from Cmaj, omitting the F and playing an E.

    Too much theory, but the kernel is that the notes are similar -- with that F - E movement being most critical. Strum the chords and scat sing lines that include that movement.

    After you're bored with that, you can recognize that the comping instrument is going to have the F E thing so you don't have to do it. At that point, loop the chords, scat sing anything and see what you like.

    Of course, I gave the example as ii V I in C. Your tune moves from one key to another. You'll want to make sure that the transitions between keys are smooth. So, the last note of one key center should, arguably, be a neighbor to the first note of the next key. It's jazz, so you don't have to do that, but it's worth having it in your arsenal.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 04-10-2019 at 06:55 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I simplify almost everything to V-I. Tension-release.
    or ii7- bII7-I7, or....just bII7-I7

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I'll answer for Christian here to save time. According to his diagram it's one every bar, so:

    GbM7 - DbM7 - AM7 - EM7
    CM7 - GM7 - BbM7 - CM7

    That last CM7 gives a neat altered sound. Good trick :-)

    But you might find it tricky to not make them sound disconnected, that's the only thing.
    You credit me with too much. That was a mistake :-)

    Should have written EbM7

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo
    This is what I came up with using a V-I approach.



    And FWIW, this is what I did the night before with ii-I


    WLAL ii - I by Bahnzo | Free Listening on SoundCloud


    For the short ii-V's at the end I played the V for the first bar, then a melodic minor thing for the second.
    Excellent! Jazzy! Tuneful! I wonder why nobody's said anything? Strange people.

    Good for you.

    Well, that's it then, you don't need any more lessons :-)

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You credit me with too much. That was a mistake :-)

    Should have written EbM7
    You mean the last CM7? But I liked that :-)

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You mean the the last CM7? But I liked that :-)
    Hah, many a cool chord discovered by accident.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    The nat E sort of slips by and the b5 B works a treat

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo
    This is what I came up with using a V-I approach.



    And FWIW, this is what I did the night before with ii-I


    WLAL ii - I by Bahnzo | Free Listening on SoundCloud


    For the short ii-V's at the end I played the V for the first bar, then a melodic minor thing for the second.
    Hey Bahnzo, that's solid playing, man. How long did you say you've been learning jazz?

    I particularly like the warm tone and the phrasing and rhythm you used, very good stuff.

    The only thing I can think to flag up is a couple of notes are a teensy bit rushed maybe due to technique/articulation (frankly I have similar issues) but in general you have a nice pocket and feel for the music, so I think this is stuff that will work itself out.

    Keep doing what you are doing! Clearly it's got you going in the right direction.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Christian -

    By the way, when you're playing your IV idea do you just arpeggiate these M7s or slip in other notes, like the 9 and 6? Or play lines from the current key? Or combine the IV triad with the V?

    I've used that IV idea over a 3-chord blues. Works OK in small doses.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Christian -

    By the way, when you're playing your IV idea do you just arpeggiate these M7s or slip in other notes, like the 9 and 6? Or play lines from the current key? Or combine the IV triad with the V?

    I've used that IV idea over a 3-chord blues. Works OK in small doses.
    I usually focus on the chord tones of IVmaj7, using passing tones and chromatics to taste. I usually use it in isolation because it's such a strong sound. Basically, we are playing a V9sus4 sound in combination with the bass. You can also see it as an extension/upper structure of the IIm7 chord. Or just ignore that and play that sound!

    You can also extend it further, to IVmaj9 (or use VIm7, very common sound too on IIm7.)

    It can get a bit much...

    The way I tend to use it is resolve it into the target chord (e.g. into C if we start on F.) Just an enclosure or something should work. You can use a F dim 7 chord or a bit of the G altered scale or what ever if there's time.

    One of my favourite moves is to play the minor third before resolving, so we go.

    Fmaj7 Fm(maj7) C

    So referencing the line A-Ab-G which you hear all over jazz.

    For instance on Dm7 G7 Em7

    Sounds very elegant and you can get that sense of resolution very quickly, which is great for rapid changes.

    Also try flatting the other notes of the Fmaj7 chord. They all work if you can resolve into the next chord. You can get some very hip sounds.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    I'd focus on the I's first. Know where you're going. When you really see those I's you should also see the connected ii/V. At least you should aim to

    E.g. arpeggiate Dbmaj7 - Emaj7 - Gmaj7 (Then maybe add C7 and F7 at the end)
    Then add in more scale notes. Let your ears decide which ones fit. Try to anticipate, e.g. move to the next center on beat 4. Try to visualize Emaj while you're at Dbmaj etc.
    When those centers are really stuck you can add in more complex variations of ii/V.

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    It can get a bit much...
    It's okay, I've got it :-)

    Thanks. I use all those things already. I think it was the unfamiliar keys that were distracting. But if we play with the FM7 then we're really not playing the IV any more over the G7... it becomes the usual standard move over the V.

    Bahnzo might benefit from this:

    1. FM7 - Fo (Abo) - CM9
    2. FM7 - (Fm) - CM6
    3. FM7 - G7alt - CM7
    4. FM7 - (G9?) - CM9#11

    Sorry, quality's not good on this one.

    Last edited by ragman1; 04-10-2019 at 11:25 AM.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Bahnzo -

    See above. There are plenty of other things to do over a 251, of course, but it can get extreme.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Excellent! Jazzy! Tuneful! I wonder why nobody's said anything? Strange people.

    Good for you.

    Well, that's it then, you don't need any more lessons :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hey Bahnzo, that's solid playing, man. How long did you say you've been learning jazz?

    I particularly like the warm tone and the phrasing and rhythm you used, very good stuff.

    The only thing I can think to flag up is a couple of notes are a teensy bit rushed maybe due to technique/articulation (frankly I have similar issues) but in general you have a nice pocket and feel for the music, so I think this is stuff that will work itself out.

    Keep doing what you are doing! Clearly it's got you going in the right direction.
    Thanks both. Keep in mind what I played was composed. I sat down and figured out what I thought sounded good and wrote that down and played it. I have a ways to go with being able to improvise that well. I really need to find the fortitude to sit down and play arpeggios for hours (err days) and get them under my fingers well enough to be able to pull them up at will.

    I've been learning jazz all my life! But only trying to play it for the last couple months. I used to be a DJ at a jazz radio, host events, etc in my younger years. So it's something I've always had in my head. I think I have a decent ear for it, but my problem is translating what I hear in my head to the instrument.

    But I feel like I'm making progress. Especially with all the resources available now due to the internet (even tho it feels like drinking from a fire hose sometimes). And being able to ask questions and get feedback from people at places like this and others is something invaluable. So thanks to both you and everyone else who takes the time. It really is amazing how different learning music is now than what it was 20/30 years ago.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Hah, many a cool chord discovered by accident.
    I think in certain situations, like the ending of the bridge here, it seems you can almost play anything that's dissonant as long as you resolve it to the Bb of the chorus. Maybe not really that simple, but that's the idea anyways.

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    pentatonics work good too. D-7 G7 Cmaj7, I use E minor pentatonic, over all three chords. I choose E minor pentatonic because it doesnt have F or C, the two avoid notes you have to worry about (sus4 of G7, and 11 of Cmaj7).

    I like this move alot too, (D-7) A minor pentatonic, (G7alt) Bb minor pentatonic and (Cmaj7#11) B minor pentatonic. The Bb minor pentatonic comes from the altered scale, giving you g7alt. The B minor gives you the #11 over the Maj7 chord. The pentatonic scale moves up a half step each chord, all you gotta do is blues out and slide up a fret each chord.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Bahnzo -

    get them under my fingers
    That's all. Do that bridge in several different keys. A lot of fingerings are shiftable. Know your shapes, arps, and what you can do over them. After a while it's like tying your shoelace :-)

    I've been learning jazz all my life!
    I wondered what was going on. Those lines came from a jazz mind, not a rock/blues mind. So you have it. Thank your lucky stars!

    I think in certain situations, like the ending of the bridge here, it seems you can almost play anything that's dissonant as long as you resolve it to the Bb of the chorus.
    Spot on. It's amazing what a V before a I will tolerate. Which doesn't mean it'll take anything at all.

    thanks etc
    No problem. So nice to talk to a receptive and willing mind.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Speaking of the adventures of the Cm7th...

    There are lots of things that will throw you, among them are looking for two-fives trying to find scales to play "over" the chords. With a song like this, with the bridge you have, what I do is listen first to make sure the given chords are right. The first thing I noticed listening to the Sarah Vaughn version was that the Cm7 you have is not played there, but the actual stuff is very nice, really the high point of the turnaround. This is the kind of stuff from which ideas come.

    From the Am7 of the bridge:

    |Am7 D7 |Gmaj7 |Gm7 C13 |AbM7sus2 F9 Dm7 Cm7| Bbmaj7...

    That AbM7sus2 (if I'm naming it correctly) might be either [x 11 13 12 11 x] or [x x 6 8 8 6] depending on where you are, sounds like the Dm7 and Cm7 are being ghosted on their low notes...

    The point is to notice that a straight two-five of Cm7- F7 going into Bbmaj7 is being slightly re-harmonized in a very nice and subtle way. When you see things like this you want to think of how your lines could describe this, whats tests you might perform to answer the first wave of questions:

    - does a line that describes the re-harmonization still work over the straight two-five?
    - will it work over any others of the two-fives?
    - do "regular" two-five lines work with the re-harmonized chords?
    - do the vocal melody lines offer any hints (does she ever sing hints of the re-harmonization)?

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joel paul
    pentatonics work good too. D-7 G7 Cmaj7, I use E minor pentatonic, over all three chords. I choose E minor pentatonic because it doesnt have F or C, the two avoid notes you have to worry about (sus4 of G7, and 11 of Cmaj7).

    I like this move alot too, (D-7) A minor pentatonic, (G7alt) Bb minor pentatonic and (Cmaj7#11) B minor pentatonic. The Bb minor pentatonic comes from the altered scale, giving you g7alt. The B minor gives you the #11 over the Maj7 chord. The pentatonic scale moves up a half step each chord, all you gotta do is blues out and slide up a fret each chord.
    That's an interesting way to think of it. Do you have a way of thinking of the changes(I mean shortcut) that lead you to think of the E minor pentatonic over that?

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Speaking of the adventures of the Cm7th...

    There are lots of things that will throw you, among them are looking for two-fives trying to find scales to play "over" the chords. With a song like this, with the bridge you have, what I do is listen first to make sure the given chords are right. The first thing I noticed listening to the Sarah Vaughn version was that the Cm7 you have is not played there, but the actual stuff is very nice, really the high point of the turnaround. This is the kind of stuff from which ideas come.
    I never noticed if they changed the later part of the bridge in that version, good catch. But reharminizing is pretty far down my list. I really only used the Sarah Vaughan version to learn the melody from a singer's perspective. The fact that Barney Kessel plays some hip little chord lines here and there was a bonus.

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Penatonics in jazz, check of Chick's solo:


  22. #46

    User Info Menu

    a way of thinking of the changes (I mean shortcut)
    Yes, but be warned, you can't survive on pentatonics. They're probably more suited to rock guitar.

    When I first discovered this (many moons ago) I thought whoopee, a quick way to get those jazzy sounds! Of course, there's no such thing. Far better to think of these subs as shapes and/or arpeggios and find lines that work. Or use them very sparingly. There are no pents for diminished and augmented sounds.

    If you check out that example above by joel paul of Am - Bbm - Bm, in effect you're playing Dm9 - G7alt - CM7#11. At least, that's the idea.

    Over C major:

    Em pent (M7 sound)
    Am pent (M6 sound)
    Bm pent (Lydian sound)
    Cm pent (Blues sound)


    Over D minor:

    Dm pent (m7 sound/blues sound)
    Am pent (m9 sound)
    Em pent (m6 sound)


    Over G7:

    Dm pent (sus4 sound)
    Em pent (13th sound)
    Fm pent (b9 sound)
    Am pent (4ths sound)
    Bbm pent (altered sound)
    Gm pent (blues sound)

    Over Bm7b5:

    Dm pent (m7b5 sound)
    Em pent (m9b5 sound)


    Over a Major 2-5-1:

    Em and Am pentatonic can be played over Dm7 – G7 – CM7.


    Over a minor 2-5-1:

    Bm7b5 (Dm or Em) – E7b9 (Dm or Gm) – Am7 (Am or Bm)

  23. #47

    User Info Menu

    That's an interesting way to think of it. Do you have a way of thinking of the changes(I mean shortcut) that lead you to think of the E minor pentatonic over that?
    I choose E minor pentatonic over D-7 G7 Cmaj7 because it doesnt have the F or C, the two notes that might give you trouble over fast ii Vs ( C against G7, and 11 against Cmaj7). But you can play all three pentatonics man (Am Em Dm). But like ragman said, you dont want to play pentatonics all the time, might get boring. Theres no real shortcut man, the reality is you gotta know your modes, your pentatonics, your arpeggios all around the fretboard. Im still working on that myself. I still get lost on the fretboard but i work on improving everyday. Years and Years of practice.

  24. #48

    User Info Menu

    Years and Years of practice.
    Sad but true. Or lots of fun, depending how you look at it :-)

  25. #49

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Sad but true. Or lots of fun, depending how you look at it :-)
    I try to consider myself more of a "practicer" than a "player." I had a music teacher who instilled that in us. If we practice more than we play then we're practicers, and that's just what we do.

    depends what your goals are and what you enjoy

  26. #50

    User Info Menu

    @ragman @joe I might start a thread about fretboard visualisation, Im curious to see how you guys visualise and navigate through the chords., And not get lost on the fretboard.