Reply to Thread
Posts 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Hello! I recently took a workshop where teacher suggested using the first ending of No Moe -- https://s3.amazonaws.com/halleonard-...0000215374.png -- last bar, starting with the D on the upbeat -- as a lick over the bridge.

    We used this chord progression on the bridge: Am7 / D7 / Dm7 / G7 / Gm7 / C7 / Cm7 / F7. The lick would be modulated to start on the 9 of each chord -- so on the Am7, the first note would be a B (instead of a D).

    I'm trying to analyze this lick to see how it works, why it sounds like you're superimposing a II-V. I see how first 4 notes are a maj7 arp. But beyond that I'm not really sure. I'm trying to move beyond "this lick sounds good, I'll throw it in" to really understanding the licks, so would appreciate any insight!



  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    As written, your notes are D Eb G Bb Db C Gb F

    D Eb G Bb over C implies Cmin9. (9, b3, 5, b7)

    Db C Gb F over F implies F7b9b13 (b13, 5, b9, R)


    If you keep the same intervals it works over any ii V.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  4. #3
    Thank you! I guess my struggle with this stuff is that it's so far removed from your basic "recognition" of an arpeggio to be like "ah, I see, that's an inversion of F7b9b13 with the b13 in the bass and the root at the top."

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Don't worry if the gap between seeing/hearing the notes and understanding the theory is large right now, it will get much faster with time and practice.

    A nice lesson you can take away from that line is that the IV chord is a great sub for ii (or you can think of it as playing an arpeggio from the 3rd of the chord in a more general sense), and that the V chord is a great place to start throwing in some tensions. As far as tensions go, the b13 and b9 on the V are pretty palatable and the safest places to start IMO. The actual naming of the arpeggio of that V chord is much less important than the actual content, that is, creating some nice tension.

    If you are able to recognize all of the chord tones of the ii chord on the fret board (in any key), you'll be able to see why that line makes sense a lot faster than actually having to spell things out in your mind, as well as being able to recognize the tensions that are non-diatonic to the key.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by deathletter View Post
    Hello! I recently took a workshop where teacher suggested using the first ending of No Moe -- https://s3.amazonaws.com/halleonard-...0000215374.png -- last bar, starting with the D on the upbeat -- as a lick over the bridge.

    We used this chord progression on the bridge: Am7 / D7 / Dm7 / G7 / Gm7 / C7 / Cm7 / F7. The lick would be modulated to start on the 9 of each chord -- so on the Am7, the first note would be a B (instead of a D).

    I'm trying to analyze this lick to see how it works, why it sounds like you're superimposing a II-V. I see how first 4 notes are a maj7 arp. But beyond that I'm not really sure. I'm trying to move beyond "this lick sounds good, I'll throw it in" to really understanding the licks, so would appreciate any insight!


    Ignore the II in a II V I.

    WIth that in mind, you have a phrase that relates to F7. It's just a bit of an easier way to analyse. In effect we are looking at Cm7 as variant of F7sus4

    So what we got?

    D Eb G Bb Db

    Ignore D. It has no meaningful harmonic function as it occurs as you say on the upbeat, serving as a lower neighbour tone to yer Eb7 arpeggio. What comes after a given note is important in determining function. In general, notes on the beat are more likely to harmonic, and especially if they move by leap (Eb-->G)

    That rhythm and phrase BTW - LNT on the upbeat before a triplet arpeggio ending on the next beat. This is classic bebop stuff. Practice that motif with different arpeggios.

    So anyway, Eb7 on F7? Well.... It kind of gives an F9b13 sound.

    The remaining notes - C Gb F- well 2 triad notes of F and a - what's this? Ooh nice b9.

    Obviously in the first half we have G natural, so we of go (kinda) F9b13-->F7b9b13 --> Bb

    The G-Gb-F is a nice line cliche type device. Bit of voice leading.

    No need for Greek :-)

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Presumably you mean this:

    How does this lick imply a II-V?-untitled-jpg

    Have you played it? The chord behind is a Bb. The 2-5 would be Cm7 - F7. Make that an F7alt and there it is. Works perfectly if the first chord is Bb, then Cm7/F7 in the next bar.


  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    How does this lick imply a II-V?-lick-jpg

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    This would also be a very good line to play in bar 6 of Rhythm Changes.

  10. #9
    Thanks so much for the help everyone. And yes, I've played it a lot and could kinda hear it but just couldn't see how to break it down. This is the first jazz standard I've ever learned.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by deathletter View Post
    Hello! I recently took a workshop where teacher suggested using the first ending of No Moe -- https://s3.amazonaws.com/halleonard-...0000215374.png -- last bar, starting with the D on the upbeat -- as a lick over the bridge.

    We used this chord progression on the bridge: Am7 / D7 / Dm7 / G7 / Gm7 / C7 / Cm7 / F7. The lick would be modulated to start on the 9 of each chord -- so on the Am7, the first note would be a B (instead of a D).

    I'm trying to analyze this lick to see how it works, why it sounds like you're superimposing a II-V. I see how first 4 notes are a maj7 arp. But beyond that I'm not really sure. I'm trying to move beyond "this lick sounds good, I'll throw it in" to really understanding the licks, so would appreciate any insight!

    I think your subject header asks a better question than your post.
    These notes sort of (see below) imply a II-V but it's not a superimposed II-V.
    The II-V being implied by the soloist is the same II-V that the band is playing.

    How do these notes imply the chords of a II-V, in this case, Cm7-F7?

    Well with the 1st 4 notes it's basically just statistics.
    Three of those notes are chord tones on Cm7 and the one that isn't, D, is being used as a chromatic approach, on a weak beat, into one of the chord tones on the next strong beat, Eb.

    On the first half of that measure, using the lead sheet's rhythm, the note that's being emphasized the most is the Eb because it's right on beat 2.
    If you play that note against a bass player playing a low C, any listener's ear will hear a Cm chord.
    [Why we hear Cm7 even if there is no low C is harder to explain, so I'll come back to that below.]
    [FYI Those notes, D Eb G Bb, are also found within only 2 possible diatonic scales; Eb major and Bb major.]

    [The last 4 notes, Db C Gb F are only found in 1 diatonic scale, Db major, which may be more or less irrelevant here.]
    These notes don't really "imply" an "F7" chord, per se, in and of themselves.
    But they do imply an Fmaj chord being approached from a 1/2 step above.
    and since the ear has already heard the Eb, i.e. the F7 chord's 7th, and since the key feeling of Bb major has already been firmly established, the ear hears it as F7 vs Fmaj.

    As far as playing these notes against an F7 chord is concerned then the analysis is:
    Db is an appoggiatura above the chord tone C.
    Gb is an appoggiatura above the root.
    [An appoggiatura is a harmonically weak note (usually a non-chord tone) played on a strong beat that resolves to a harmonically stronger note (usually a chord tone) on a weaker beat.
    Appoggiaturas that don't resolve are called "extensions".
    Extensions that don't sound good, vertically speaking, on the chord (usually because they create a min 9 or min 2 with one of the chord tones below), are known as "avoid-notes".
    Avoid-notes that don't resolve at all are often experienced as mistakes by listeners and players alike.]
    Also, in the original tune, the last F is heard as an anticipation of the 5th of the Bb chord at the top of the form, not as the root of F7.
    But as you play this lick isolated from the I chord, that last note does feel like the root of Fmaj or F7.
    And since the key feeling of this tune is firmly established at that point, Fmaj is the D function chord of the key.
    I.e. F and F7 are functionally equivalent in this key.

    In my opinion this lick has the feeling of movement from SD to D kind of baked into into it.
    But this line doesn't really "imply" a II-V per se.
    It does imply the harmonic movement of SD-D which is implicit in any II-V progression.
    What it really is, IMO, is just a line that *fits* a II-V, especially where a whiff of some altered extensions on the V7 chord are desired.
    As such, it's worth practising by transposing to all 12 keys.

    So why does D Eb G Bb imply Cm7 even w/o a bass player playing a low C?
    Well, it doesn't really.
    Those notes are literally spelling out Ebmaj7.
    And with the D on such a weak beat and the Eb on such a strong beat it comes off more like an implied Ebmaj triad than Ebmaj7.
    If you're in a harmonic setting where the key feeling of Bb major has already been firmly established, as is the case with the original tune from which the lick was taken, then an Ebmaj chord will be experienced by most listeners as a chord with Subdominant function within that key.
    The other main SD chord in that key is Cm.
    So, functionally speaking, this Ebmaj chord and Cm are both identical.
    I.e. they can both serve as stand-ins for the other.
    I.e. In a setting where a listener expects to hear Cm7, these notes will be heard that as an expression of Cm7.

    But when you take this lick and transpose it to fit onto those other II-Vs on the bridge of the tune, where each II-V does not resolve to its related I chord, then something else is at work beyond the SD function thing I'm talking about even though that "thing" is still active as well.
    I.e. If you play those notes w/o first having established the key or w/o resolving to that key after the II-V happens, the the main thing at work here is the fact of how those notes fit vertically on the chords that the rhythm section is playing.
    Again, the analysis is:
    Cm7
    D - chrom approach below Eb.
    Eb - Chord Tone
    G - CT
    Bb - CT
    F7
    Db - appoggiatura above C.
    C - CT
    Gb - appoggiatura above F.
    F - CT.

    Am7
    B - chr app to C
    C - CT
    E - CT
    G - CT
    D7
    Bb - appogiatura above A.
    A - CT
    Eb - appoggiatura above D.
    D - CT.

    Etc., etc.

    Hope that's not to cryptic to be useful.

    JG

  12. #11
    That's not too cryptic at all, very helpful! I appreciate the rephrasing and contextualizing of some of the above ideas too. I've learned a lot from the thread

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    It's kind of a paraphrase of the opening phrase of Cheryl . And it accents the flat 3rd of the tonic key which is a big feature of this tune .