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  1. #1

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    Hey

    I am looking at There will never be another you. Great tune! However I have a question.

    I've looked at different lead sheets and I understand most small differences. For example using iv minor instead of bVII etc. However I've seen several versions that use a C7 in bar 26 before it moves to the turnaround:


    Abmaj7 | Abmin6 | Ebmaj7 | Amin7b5 D7 |
    Ebmaj7 ......

    Now I saw versions that do this (for example here There Will Never Be Another You
    Abmaj7 | Abmin6 | Ebmaj7 | C7 |
    Ebmaj7 ......


    I understand that Amin7b5 D7 is a sub for the biii dim7 chord. But how does C7 function? It is the V/ii so you would expect it to resolve to Fmin7 or another subdominant chord like IVmaj7. However it resolves to the I?

    Thanks a lot!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I have never seen that C7 before. It looks like the Vanilla changes link (Ralph Patt?)

    I can think of no harmonic explanation and wonder if it's a typo.

  4. #3

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    It's not a typo.

    Some versions of Rhythm Changes have the same change.

    Rhythm Changes usually begins with a I-vim-iim-V7 but you will also see I-vi7-iim-V7.

    It works. As to why it works I'm sure others more astute here can explain it better.

    Cm7 = C-Eb-G-Bb

    C7 = C-E-G-B

    Chords that share two chord tones can be considered substitutes.

    Obviously the I-vi is all in the same key but the I-vi7 is not.

    However, the C Bebop Dominant scale works particularly well with the C7 chord.
    Last edited by Drumbler; 03-16-2019 at 09:33 PM.
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  5. #4

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    Sure, if we are going to TWO.


    We are going to ONE.

    Cdim7 (Co) would make sense.

  6. #5
    I don't know the theory answer, but both share a leadline, which is always a thing in jazz: C-B-Bb-C- Bb, over those 5 bars...

    C7 to Ebmaj7 also has a kind of relative relationship to the common downstep modulation of C7-Cm7...?

    ...and then C9b13 is analogous to Bb9#11 (Bb Lydian Dom)... ?

    But this is a CMiller type question probably...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-16-2019 at 11:52 PM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    Sure, if we are going to TWO.


    We are going to ONE.

    Cdim7 (Co) would make sense.
    yeah, C7 is just the wrong chord here. probably a typo. there is a D in the melody, too.

    Am7b5, Cdim, F7 all work.
    Last edited by djg; 03-17-2019 at 12:32 PM.

  8. #7

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    Yeah I did this a while back with a student. We decided the C7 was a bit shit.

  9. #8

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    I usually play something like Abmaj7 Abm6 Gm7#5 (G F Bb Eb) to C7+9 (C (or G) E Bb Eb).

    I don't mind a D7/C

  10. #9

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    There’s like 4 dominant chords out of 12 i wouldn’t play there and c7 is one of them haha
    White belt
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  11. #10

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    there’s one way i can “justify” to my way of thinking.

    Bb6 as a sub for the first Eb
    then Eb6 as the beginning of the turnaround

    inbetween you can play a bii dim because of the strong chromatic movement. It’s in Alan’s book.

    melody makes it C7b9

    I still dont like it though. i don’t think that movement is intended to have the middle chord for a whole measure...just a passive thing
    White belt
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  12. #11
    It very well may be a mistake, but
    C7 spelled as Bb7 is 9 #11 13 R
    C9 as Bb7: 9 #11 13 R 3
    C9b13 as Bb7: 9 #11 13 R 3 7

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    there’s one way i can “justify” to my way of thinking.

    Bb6 as a sub for the first Eb
    then Eb6 as the beginning of the turnaround

    inbetween you can play a bii dim because of the strong chromatic movement. It’s in Alan’s book.

    melody makes it C7b9

    I still dont like it though. i don’t think that movement is intended to have the middle chord for a whole measure...just a passive thing

    Hey! Don't blame it on me!

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    Hey! Don't blame it on me!
    everytime i sound really bad at the workshop this summer, i’ll just be like “oh i’m sorry that’s what Alan said to do.”
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  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    everytime i sound really bad at the workshop this summer, i’ll just be like “oh i’m sorry that’s what Alan said to do.”

    Aw man, a beautiful player like you?

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    I have never seen that C7 before. It looks like the Vanilla changes link (Ralph Patt?)

    I can think of no harmonic explanation and wonder if it's a typo.
    Hahah, interesting! I asked this question to Jens Larsen on YT and he also said it was probably a typo. Next I asked Matt Warnock and he said that he only has seen people play a C7 there and that some lead sheets say D7 but the has never seen that in practice.

    Here is another example: Dropbox - Another You Form and Melody PDF.pdf

    I also found it really strange!

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    there’s one way i can “justify” to my way of thinking.

    Bb6 as a sub for the first Eb
    then Eb6 as the beginning of the turnaround

    inbetween you can play a bii dim because of the strong chromatic movement. It’s in Alan’s book.

    melody makes it C7b9

    I still dont like it though. i don’t think that movement is intended to have the middle chord for a whole measure...just a passive thing
    Hahah wow, let me check. I am still a newb ;p.

    So Bb6 as a sub for Eb since Bb - D - F - G are the 5 7 2 and 3 of Eb. So we get a Ebmaj9 sound correct? Then we want to connect this Bb6 and the upcoming Eb6. So we can play a Edim7 which can see as either: Eb7, Gb7, A7 or C7.

    Thats interesting and a creative IMO :P. I have to think about it!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hahah, interesting! I asked this question to Jens Larsen on YT and he also said it was probably a typo. Next I asked Matt Warnock and he said that he only has seen people play a C7 there and that some lead sheets say D7 but the has never seen that in practice.

    Here is another example: Dropbox - Another You Form and Melody PDF.pdf

    I also found it really strange!



    Hahah wow, let me check. I am still a newb ;p.

    So Bb6 as a sub for Eb since Bb - D - F - G are the 5 7 2 and 3 of Eb. So we get a Ebmaj9 sound correct? Then we want to connect this Bb6 and the upcoming Eb6. So we can play a Edim7 which can see as either: Eb7, Gb7, A7 or C7.

    Thats interesting and a creative IMO :P. I have to think about it!
    exactly.

    i think you’re out of newb status now— sounds like you have a good grasp of it. good job spotting a stupid chord that doesnt work lol
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  18. #17

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    Interesting question, and it’s prompted me to get a little deeper into this tune than I have before. Here’s an iRealPro chart of bars 25-32 that I’ve marked up a bit, adding the C7 as an option:


    I think the original chords work. To my ear, the measure of Amin7b5 D7 could be thought of as Ebdim7. Either choice has a tension that pulls you back to the Eb chord in the next bar.

    Now some thoughts on where the C7 might come from: Since the melody note in that measure is D, one could actually play an Emaj7 chord in that measure, but it’s kind of boring to hang on the same chord for three measures. One could also play Cmin9 there since it’s just an inversion of Cmaj7(add 6). It’s a little more interesting than hanging on the same chord for three measures, but it adds no tension or forward motion. But hey, there’s a C7 a couple of measures later so how about we borrow that chord a little early?

    The 7th of C7 is E, which seems a little ugly to me, but if it’s buried in the middle of the voicing instead of the top voice it does add a little interest to that measure.

    While playing around with these ideas, I also noticed E7 might be another option in measure 28. The melody note (D) is in it, and it gives a downward chromatic approach to the next chord (Eb).

    The New Real Book Vol I suggests the option of F13 there. That works! F13 could also be thought of as Cmin6 with a 9 and 11 added. Hey I like how that sounds!

    Another book suggests Amin11 Ab7 for bar 28, but Ab7 is just a tritone sub for D7.
    Last edited by KirkP; 03-17-2019 at 01:20 PM.

  19. #18

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    c7 works pulling to the ii because it’s an entirely different function
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  20. #19

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    Ebmaj7 (Am7b5) D7 Ebmaj7 is a really nice chord progression.

    However.....

    It's a little tricky to solo on for just that one bar.

    When soloing, it could make sense to sub in a Gm7 sound (arpeggio) and play a II V I into it, so

    Ebmaj7 | Am7b5 D7b9 | Gm D7b9 (Ab7) | Gm7 C7 |

    So, is fine if you know good minor lines

    Gm7 on Ebmaj7 is big and clever.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    good job spotting a stupid chord that doesnt work lol
    There's plenty of those in iReal. Drives I mad!

  22. #21

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    There Will Never Be Another You: Piano/Vocal/Guitar, Sheet (Original Sheet Music Edition): Mack Gordon, Harry Warren: 9780739088227: Amazon.com: Books

    This might be the original changes. It seems stylistically like the period.

    Not a modern jazzer's chords though.

    It isn't written as Am7b5 to D7. But it's close. More or less.

  23. #22

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    I don't think there is any deep meaning to this chord change.

    EbM7 and Cm7 are subs.

    The difference between Cm7 and C7 is only one note. The difference just adds some dissonance.

    However, there is some logic to it from this standpoint

    EbM = Gm7 (1- 3 in Eb)

    Gm7 = C7 (2-5 in F)

    EbM7 = Gm7 = C7

    EbM7 = C7

    It also sounds good to my ears.

    The C7 appears in "Real Book of Jazz - Vol. 1".

    AbM7 - Fm7b5 - Bb7 - EbM7 - Gm7 - C7
    Attached Images Attached Images There will never be another you: C7 as a sub for biii dim7 or Am7b5 D7-twnbau-jpg 
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler View Post
    It also sounds good to my ears.
    that's what it comes down to!

    Play an Eb6 chord, then raise the root up a half step, then lower it back down. That is all that's happening, and if you like it go for it!
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  25. #24

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    I think what's missing a bit from here is any audio reference. What are people's favourite versions and what do those musicians play?

    A great resource for getting started in the recorded history of a tune is jazzstandards.com. Here's the page for TWNAY:

    Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals (There Will Never Be Another You)

  26. #25

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    I like the Oscar Moore Quartet version. He plays it in Db. I tried to capture the changes in iReal below, highlighting the changes that seem a little unusual. I’ve left out a few more complex things the piano is doing such as a line cliche, because I think of them as still working within Oscar’s simpler changes.



    Note that you could think of Cb7#11 as Gb-6(maj7) and Eb9 as Bb-6. I tend to think of the minor chord when I’m soloing even though the bass is playing the the root of the dominant a fourth above. My old fashioned ears hear it as the minor.

    Here’s the Oscar Moore track I was working from.


    Here’s my Oscar Moore chart transposed to Eb. Let me know if I’ve made any major errors.
    Last edited by KirkP; 03-19-2019 at 05:17 PM.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post

    Here’s my Oscar Moore chart transposed to Eb. Let me know if I’ve made any major errors.
    That's how I learned it, with the Abm6 in the second bar of "B" (and also "C") and often substituting the descending tritone dominant cliche in bars 30 and 31: | G7 / Gb7 | F7 / E7 | with alts / m6 subs to taste.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There's plenty of those in iReal. Drives I mad!
    Most of the time I tell my students that "there are no correct chords for a standard, but the ones in iRealPro are usually wrong, so go listen to some recordings"

    Jens
    jenslarsen.nl --- My YouTube Channel with lessons and live videos--- YT Lesson Facebook page --- Træben album: Storm on itunes

    I endorse Ibanez guitars, John Daw Custom picks and QSC monitors

  29. #28

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    As in there are no correct changes, but there are definitely wrong ones :-)

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    As in there are no correct changes, but there are definitely wrong ones :-)
    There’s also the problem of bandmates playing to different charts. Sometimes it works but it can also get ugly. So I try to analyze or play along with a variety of recordings when learning a tune to understand some of the most common variations. The goal for me is to hear when there is a clash and quickly adapt to how the lead voice hears the harmony. I’m not great at that, but I’m slowly getting better.

    I’ll often search for a tune in a streaming app, set it to play all in succession, and challenge myself to work out the chords on each track in one play. Of course some interpretations are much more complex than others, so my success rate varies.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    There’s also the problem of bandmates playing to different charts. Sometimes it works but it can also get ugly. So I try to analyze or play along with a variety of recordings when learning a tune to understand some of the most common variations. The goal for me is to hear when there is a clash and quickly adapt to how the lead voice hears the harmony. I’m not great at that, but I’m slowly getting better.
    That is only a problem if you are in a band where you are not allowed to talk to each other
    And with the dilemma of ear-training vs. good music on stage, I think it is is about find the right balance.

    Jens
    jenslarsen.nl --- My YouTube Channel with lessons and live videos--- YT Lesson Facebook page --- Træben album: Storm on itunes

    I endorse Ibanez guitars, John Daw Custom picks and QSC monitors

  32. #31

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    So the simple analysis is the C7 is just the V of the implied II-7(F-7).

    So last 8...Abmaj is IV chord... SubDominant and the Eb is I... Tonic, with II V before....then Ebma7 or Tonic, then the C7 or G-7 C7 on bar before the last 4 bars or turnaround.

  33. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler View Post
    I don't think there is any deep meaning to this chord change.

    EbM7 and Cm7 are subs.

    The difference between Cm7 and C7 is only one note. The difference just adds some dissonance.

    However, there is some logic to it from this standpoint

    EbM = Gm7 (1- 3 in Eb)

    Gm7 = C7 (2-5 in F)

    EbM7 = Gm7 = C7

    EbM7 = C7

    It also sounds good to my ears.

    The C7 appears in "Real Book of Jazz - Vol. 1".

    AbM7 - Fm7b5 - Bb7 - EbM7 - Gm7 - C7
    Whoa thats a great way to explain it IMO! Although we consider the Gm7 a ii chord in that situation instead of a iii chord which is in the key of Eb. But given that this is jazz and we can use modal interchange this is a great way to see it. Isn't this also what Pat Martino does a lot of the time? Minorizing everything and using all the minor scales (dorian, natural minor, melodic minor, phrygian etc), since he plays so fast the "clashes" don't really sound bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    So the simple analysis is the C7 is just the V of the implied II-7(F-7).

    So last 8...Abmaj is IV chord... SubDominant and the Eb is I... Tonic, with II V before....then Ebma7 or Tonic, then the C7 or G-7 C7 on bar before the last 4 bars or turnaround.
    Hey Reg thanks for your reply! I'm not sure I understand you but thats probably me :P.

    We talk about the last 8 bars right?

    | Ab | Abm | Eb | C7 |


    | Eb D7 | G7 C7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb |

    So Ab is the IV chord in the key of Eb. Next we go to a Abm: the ivminor chord, which is quite common in jazz, a so called subdominant minor chord together with the bVII7. They create the so called backdoor cadence that goes to the I chord correct? So we go to the I, a tonic chord. Next we go to C7 which can be seen as G-7 C7 this is the V/ii or the VI7. However instead of going to the ii chord we go to the I. Why :P?

    Because as Drumbler said since C7 is G-7 and G-7 is also Ebmaj when we're using modal interchange? As C7 is G-7 assumes G-7 is dorian while G-7 is Ebmaj suggests G-7 is phrygian.

    Thanks a lot!

  34. #33

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    Hey Lark.... when your making a analysis... you need something to become the Reference.... that which all of your labeling relates to. generally the basic reference is functional harmony.... so what is the function of the chord your labeling, how does the chord work within the context... whole tune and in target shorter sections etc...

    The Tune is in Eb right... the tonic is Eb, the relative Min. C- is also a Tonic etc...

    By labeling the C7 or G-7 C7 as II V of Fmin. The II V becomes a II V of the implied II- chord with Subdominant function, A deceptive resolution Implies but does not actually go there..... So the analysis make a choice of calling C7 or G-7 C7 a subdominant function... with reference to The II- chord...F-. The G-7 C7 can still have Dom. function in the short context of Fmim being the Target.... but that Dominant function is in the Target world of Fmim as tonal target.... usually just labeled as II V of II. The chords are all within a SD functional area or space of the Tune. generally this becomes a secondary target functional layer of analysis.

    When you start calling chords inversions or voicings with some same notes notes etc... your using a different approach for analysis.
    Not wrong etc... but Analysis generally is a total concept approach.

    Whether the last 8 bars are...| Ab | Abm | Eb | C7 |or l Ab13 l F-7b5 Bb7? l Ebmaj7 G-7 C7altered l

    The analysis should be the same.... Tonic l Sub dom l SD l ? l I tend to call the last bar SD which sets up the turnaround.

    How one chooses to play something is different from the analysis.... I mean when you actually start playing the tune.... there are millions of harmonic approaches which change most of the chords to chord patterns and subs etc.... start using MI and Blues or modal relationships....

    the reason for analysis to to have common ground for relationships and their development when playing or arranging.