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  1. #1

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    Heya

    I posted this thread on another forum a while ago but I couldn't find a satisfying answer.


    I understand that there are just three dim7 chords and that the remaining nine chords are just inversions of these three. I also understand that a dim7 chord can function as a dom7b9 chord without a root. Since a dim7 chord consists of four notes it has four inversions, so also four related dom7 chords: for example:




    Ddim7 is the same as Fdim7 - Abdim7 and Bdim7




    These give you the following dom7 chords: (please forgive my ignorance when it comes to enharmonic spelling...)


    G7, Db7/C#7, E7, Bb7/A#7




    Now lets look at the relation of those chords taking G7 as our "base":




    Db7 is the tritone sub of G7.


    Bb7/A#7 is the bVII7 in C and is known as the backdoor dominant.




    So looking at G7, Bb7 and Db7 we can see a clear relationship. But what about E7? I know that in the key of C its the III7 chord and can be seen as the V7/vi. But what kind of relationship does it have to the G7? Can E7 be used as a sub for G7? Can I play E7 lines over G7? What does this mean in practice?




    Thanks in advance!

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  3. #2

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    Yes E7 can be used as a sub for G7, it’s a G13b9 sound, it’s quite a cool sound actually pretty common....

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yes E7 can be used as a sub for G7, it’s a G13b9 sound, it’s quite a cool sound actually pretty common....
    +1. For example, if the original progression is G7 CMaj7 and you think "E7 Am7" you're dippin into the relative minor.
    Build bridges, not walls.

  5. #4

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  6. #5
    Hey thanks guys for the info!

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles View Post
    +1. For example, if the original progression is G7 CMaj7 and you think "E7 Am7" you're dippin into the relative minor.
    Ah, so that would give me a G13b9 - Cmaj6 sound correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    E7 Em7 is fun
    And this would give me a G13b9 - Cmaj7 right?

  7. #6

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    Lark -

    I think the connections you're making in your thinking aren't quite right.

    Yes, if you play a G7b9 without the root the notes are the same as a dim chord - but it's functioning as a G7b9, not a diminished.

    You may invert it and play D, F, Ab and Bo up the neck but it's still a G7b9.

    Assume you were the bass player. You'd still play a G7 bass line despite the fact that the chord was a 7b9. You wouldn't start playing diminished bass lines because it would sound pretty odd.

    So that's that. Think function.

    ******************

    Then you go further and say 'Well, if it's an F diminished then it's also a D, Ab and B diminished too. Which means it's also an E7b9, Bb7b9 and Db7b9'.

    Is it? Doesn't it depend again on the function? So personally I wouldn't think like that. I'd see all those 'diminished' chords as the 7b9 they're supposed to represent played without the root.

    In a different context, yes, they could represent E7b9, Bb7b9 and Db7b9 but that isn't the context in C major.

    *******************

    Your other question is 'If Db7 is the tritone of G7 and Bb7 is the backdoor of C, what's the E7?'

    Do you see that's really a different question to the above issue of 7b9's and dim chords?

    You've said the relationship of a Db7 to G7 is the tritone. Quite right. But you haven't asked what the relationship of a Bb7 to G7 is. You've swapped it to the chord of C, which is something else. And, again, you're not looking for the relationship of E7 to G7, you've gone to C again.

    Either, logically, all those chords have a relation to G7 - like Db is the tritone - or they haven't. And they haven't really. Not a direct one anyway.

    I mean, when was the last time, instead of Dm7 - G7 - CM7, you saw Dm7 - E7 - CM7?

    Theoretically they are all related in some way to everything else but I wouldn't really worry about it. Otherwise we'll be here all day discussing modal interchange and borrowed chords :-)

    But, in real terms, when you're soloing you could use the notes of E7 over G7 because it gives a 13b9 sound. And a Bb7 gives a #9/b9 sound. And a Db7 gives a b5b9 sound... and so on.

    They all have 2 notes in common with the G7 which is good enough for substitution purposes.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hey thanks guys for the info!



    Ah, so that would give me a G13b9 - Cmaj6 sound correct?



    And this would give me a G13b9 - Cmaj7 right?
    Yes

  9. #8

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    Yes, an E triad with G7 gives G13b9:

    3x3454

    That shape is pretty obvious. The other well-used shape is this, which is not so obvious:

    3x3100 (That shape can be moved up and is far easier to play on the higher frets. A nice combination is playing 11 to 13b9 - for example C11-C13b9 is 8x8766 - 8x8755)

    And there's a rootless version with the (b)7 in the bass:

    x8999x

    But that doesn't answer your question:

    But what kind of relationship does it have to the G7?
    The Db and Bb have names (tritone, backdoor) but your query was that E7 didn't seem to have one. Quite right! It's not used as a direct substitution like the others.

    Like I said, we see Dm7-Db7-CM7 and Dm7-Bb7-CM7 but we don't see Dm7-E7-CM7.

    It can be analysed by saying it's borrowed from the relative minor (Am) but the fact is it just doesn't sound any good as a substitution. Also, Db and Bb are non-diatonic notes whereas E is not. Probably that's got a lot to do with it.

  10. #9

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    [QUOTE=Lark;938096]Heya




    I understand that there are just three dim7 chords ..."

    there are FOUR dim7 chords..but only THREE diminished SCALES ..
    play well ...
    wolf

  11. #10

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    [QUOTE=wolflen;938484]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I understand that there are just three dim7 chords ..."

    there are FOUR dim7 chords..but only THREE diminished SCALES ..
    I think the OP was correct. When you move a dim7 chord by a minor third you have an inversion. If you consider inversions to be the “same chord” there are only three dim7 chords. Each dim7 chord has four inversions. And 4x3=12, the number of notes in an octave, as it should be.