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  1. #1

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    Heya,

    I have a question about Just Friends. In the RB you have the following progression if the tune is in G:

    Cmaj7 - Cmin7 - F7 - Gmaj7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7 ....

    So when we analyze this we get:

    IV - ivminor7 - bVII7 - I - biiim7 - bVI7 - iim7 - V7 - I

    So ivm7 and bVII7 is pretty standard modal interchange stuff from the parallel minor right, the so called backdoor pattern. However what about the biiim7 bVI7?

    I consider it the tritone sub for A7. So if we simplify the changes and consider the ii and V the same (since the ii is basically a suspended V) we get the following:

    Cmaj7 - Cmin7 - F7 - Gmaj7 - A7 - D7 - GMaj7

    This makes sense right? The A7 is just a V\V. And what we do is we use the tritone sub:

    Gmaj7 - Eb7 - D7 - GMaj7

    Then add the related ii chords:

    Gmaj7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Am7 - D7 - GMaj7

    Now my questions:

    1. Is this the same way you guys think about this? Or am I overlooking something?

    2. In some versions I see they play a Bbdim7 for Bbm7 | Eb7. But a Bbdim7 is the same as a rootless A7b9 right?

    Thanks in advance!

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  3. #2

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    In G, Eb7 Gb7 A7 and c7 come from the biii dim chord who’s function is to pull toward either the ii or the I in this casee it’s pulling to the ii
    White belt
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  4. #3

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    Oh, who cares, just play it!

    Just Friends - Bbm7 | Eb7 or Bbdim7 | Bbdim7-just-friends2-jpg

  5. #4

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    Harmonic analysis using the book may fall short because the representation of the harmony uses simple chords; more simple than the ones typically used when playing the tune; so you can sort of use the book's chords' roots and types to figure a fundamental schematic of the progression, but many of the harmonies that characterize the song, and many harmonic interpretations used in performance, are mostly missing.

    For example:

    - with additional chords you can descend chromatically from the C to the A, which is a path to many harmonic insights

    - notice there are places where the same chord can work over adjacent chord changes (what does that mean and how might you do something with that?)

    - hear how the 7b5 rooted on the 6th of a minor chord foreshadows resolution to its four

    Here are some additional chords you might play with to reveal more harmonic substance:

    Cmaj7 try C6sus2 or C69
    Cm7 try A79b5
    F7 try Cm6 or A79b5 (A79b5 works on both Cm7 and F7)
    Gmaj7 try Bm7
    Bbm7 try G7b5
    Eb(7) try Bbm6 or G7b5
    Am7
    D7 try D9
    Bm7
    Em7 try E7sus(2or4)
    A7 try A13/G
    Am7 try D9sus4 or D11
    D7 try D9sus4 or D11 (D11 works on both Am7 and D7)
    Db(7) try Db(7#11sus2) or Db(79b5)
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  6. #5

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    Love this tune, btw!

  7. #6

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    I've just been playing with this tune and re-learning the Jimmy Raney solo over the changes from the Aebersold Vol. 20 book. Raney does really interesting things with the tune, including making it basically a 64 bar statement. You don't feel the "here's the second chorus" transition. It has some really quick sections, then some sections with long rests and rhythmic phrasing that is difficult for me to get. On the clip below I think somewhere about 2/3s the way through I get off by half a beat, not sure... it's s slippery solo in the second chorus.

    Some good ideas here, though.

    I play the head before the solo.

    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Harmonic analysis using the book may fall short because the representation of the harmony uses simple chords; more simple than the ones typically used when playing the tune; so you can sort of use the book's chords' roots and types to figure a fundamental schematic of the progression, but many of the harmonies that characterize the song, and many harmonic interpretations used in performance, are mostly missing.

    For example:

    - with additional chords you can descend chromatically from the C to the A, which is a path to many harmonic insights

    - notice there are places where the same chord can work over adjacent chord changes (what does that mean and how might you do something with that?)

    - hear how the 7b5 rooted on the 6th of a minor chord foreshadows resolution to its four

    Here are some additional chords you might play with to reveal more harmonic substance:

    Cmaj7 try C6sus2 or C69
    Cm7 try A79b5
    F7 try Cm6 or A79b5 (A79b5 works on both Cm7 and F7)
    Gmaj7 try Bm7
    Bbm7 try G7b5
    Eb(7) try Bbm6 or G7b5
    Am7
    D7 try D9
    Bm7
    Em7 try E7sus(2or4)
    A7 try A13/G
    Am7 try D9sus4 or D11
    D7 try D9sus4 or D11 (D11 works on both Am7 and D7)
    Db(7) try Db(7#11sus2) or Db(79b5)
    Hey thanks a lot! That are some interesting subs! I "understand" most of them but how does A79b5 for Cm7 or F7 work?

    A9b5 consists of the following notes:

    A C# Eb G B

    Over a Cmin7 that are the following intervals: 6 b2 b3 5 and 7.
    Now considering that the ivminor chord and its related bVII7 are often seen as coming from the melodic minor scale on the root of the iv chord (this case c mel minor) this makes sense. Since the iv minor is then a ivmin6 or a ivminmaj7. However what about the C# the b2? Is this just voice leading to the 5 of G, the D?

    You do the same with the Bbm7 and Eb7 correct?

    Thanks!

    And great playing lawson-stone! Just Friends is one of my favorite standards! Beautiful melody!

  9. #8

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    A79b5
    What's that? Do you mean A7b5 or A9b5?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    What's that? Do you mean A7b5 or A9b5?
    A7b5 e.g., x 12 13 12 14 x ... like F7b13/A

    As in the Cmadd9 x 15 13 12 15 x to A7b5 x 12 13 12 14 x kind of sound...

    It changes the Cm7 to F9 resolution from one step to two; the Cmadd9 is "pre-loaded" with part of it but not enough to fully resolve, but followed by the A7b5 the resolution completes.

    This is an artifact of how I play... I play solo lines as if there are more chords between the main ones of the progression, like passing chords, or even passing chords between passing chords; typically I don't play these as chords but they are the chords you would attribute if you took the solo lines apart to find their source harmonies. Since this thread is about harmonic analysis, I did that reverse engineering exercise to provide some additional chords to examine.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    Is this the same way you guys think about this?
    Yes.

    Or am I overlooking something?
    No.

    That should do it :-)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    A7b5 e.g., x 12 13 12 14 x ... like F7b13/A

    As in the Cmadd9 x 15 13 12 15 x to A7b5 x 12 13 12 14 x kind of sound...

    It changes the Cm7 to F9 resolution from one step to two; the Cmadd9 is "pre-loaded" with part of it but not enough to fully resolve, but followed by the A7b5 the resolution completes.

    This is an artifact of how I play... I play solo lines as if there are more chords between the main ones of the progression, like passing chords, or even passing chords between passing chords; typically I don't play these as chords but they are the chords you would attribute if you took the solo lines apart to find their source harmonies. Since this thread is about harmonic analysis, I did that reverse engineering exercise to provide some additional chords to examine.
    I think I just meant that, as far as I know, there's no chord named A79b5. I'm supposing it's a typo, except there's a difference between A7b5 and A9b5. Probably it doesn't matter much.

  13. #12

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    In G, Eb7 Gb7 A7 and c7 come from the biii dim chord who’s function is to pull toward either the ii or the I in this casee it’s pulling to the ii
    You said .. Barry who?

    this minor realtion thing and dim chord behind is one the most beautiful thing in his theory.

    And actually I used these dominants chords as relative before but he really puts it so nicely together.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    You said .. Barry who?

    this minor realtion thing and dim chord behind is one the most beautiful thing in his theory.

    And actually I used these dominants chords as relative before but he really puts it so nicely together.
    It doesn't get better than Barry Harris for straight ahead or bebop playing.
    White belt
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  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I think I just meant that, as far as I know, there's no chord named A79b5. I'm supposing it's a typo, except there's a difference between A7b5 and A9b5. Probably it doesn't matter much.
    I wrote A79b5 as my name for (5 x 5 6 6 x ); what you probably call A9#11...?

    With over two octaves under my hand, how I would allocate and assign a note's place name within a chord (which I never do because I play exclusively by ear, but if I did...) would depend on whether the note is positioned within the "chord tone" octave or within the "extension" octave. However, that relative placement seems dependent on the assignment of the octaves - the lower octave might be the chord tone octave with an extension octave above it, or the upper octave might stand alone as the chord tone octave without an extension octave above it (but perhaps a note from the lower octave below serving as a non-tonic bottom?).

    It all seems kind of fluid depending on my intention (which strings I sound). Sometimes I emphasize the lower part of that chord; other times I "ghost" the bottom and emphasize the top so that it might be written more like A9#11/G.

    If I play the bottom A and 7th in the lower octave, that might tend to make the upper octave sound like the extension octave, but if I play the same thing without the bottom A in the context of intending that 7th to be a non-tonic bottom, what of the notes in the octave above it? Do 9th and #11 become sus2 and b5 ?

    Does the 6th of A6 played like this: x 12 11 11 10 x become the 13th of A13/G when played like this: x 10 11 11 10 x ?

    Music already has the peculiar combination of the same identical thing taking multiple names, multiple different things taking the same name, and a lot of important things without names at all. I just always seek to hear and grasp the musical intention apart from the symbolic labeling.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  16. #15

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    I wrote A79b5 as my name for (5 x 5 6 6 x ); what you probably call A9#11...?
    That's an A7#5, also called A7b13.

    There is no 9 or #11 in that chord. Why are you inventing your own names? You're going to confuse people and yourself.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That's an A7#5, also called A7b13.

    There is no 9 or #11 in that chord. Why are you inventing your own names? You're going to confuse people and yourself.
    Sorry, I meant 5x544x... I always run a high risk is getting chord names and fingerings incorrect because I just don't think about them or use them when playing.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  18. #17

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    er...what was the thread about???

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    er...what was the thread about???
    Bbo.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Sorry, I meant 5x544x... I always run a high risk is getting chord names and fingerings incorrect because I just don't think about them or use them when playing.
    Okay, that's an A9b5, I guess.

    But you must have got the chords from somewhere even if you don't think about the names while playing. Neither do I, names are the last thing on my mind!

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Okay, that's an A9b5, I guess.

    But you must have got the chords from somewhere even if you don't think about the names while playing. Neither do I, names are the last thing on my mind!
    By ear... the unwritten method, making them up just based on how they sound...
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."