Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Hi

    Been playing through some Ted Greene Blues progressions and in particular the Blues in Bb which Tim Lerch demonstrates so well. Great tune and Tim's explanation of what is going on is great and I can understand the terms just fine except when he uses the term " companion minor " a couple of times in explaining a progression. Example Bb Blues- bar 3 - Bb7/Fm7( companion minor) / Bb/Eb7 or bar 5 - Eb9inv/Eb9inv/Eb9inv/Bbmin9 (companion minor). I am probably being very dense as my ear gets it but what is the theory explanation or meaning of the term?

    A minor sub of the V of the root of the preceding chord ?

    Will
    Last edited by WillMbCdn5; 01-30-2019 at 10:58 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Looks like a related II-7. "As-if" the chord of the moment is a V7. II-V relationship...

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Companion minor? Google Woody Allen

    David

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Looks like a related II-7. "As-if" the chord of the moment is a V7. II-V relationship...
    I haven't heard the term but I guess you're right.

    If you have a dominant chord which resolves down a fifth (or even not), you can often replace it with a II-V with the same dominant chord.

    example jazz blues progression:
    C7 | F7 | | C7 | C7 |
    F7 | F7 | C7 | A7 |
    Dm | G7 | C7 | G7 |

    we can make bars 4 and 8 into II-V :
    C7 | F7 | | C7 | Gm, C7 |
    F7 | F7 | C7 | Em, A7 |
    Dm ...
    ...

    There are more ways to do this in terms on which beats of a bar you put the II- chord and which beats you put the V7 chord.
    This "trick" is very useful to make a chord progression more "jazzy".

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Companion minor? Google Woody Allen

    David
    Also R. Kelly.
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Yep, Ted Greene used the term "companion minor" and "companion dominant" or "companion 7th" to refer to the package of ii-V. Any dominant chord can be paired with a m7 chord a 5th up, and any minor 7th can be paired with a dominant 7 a 4th up.
    He often said that Wes Montgomery and Debussy made extensive use of this relationship, especially by doing a whole series of them on the same minor/dominant pair...going up and down the scales with different inversions, etc. Beautiful sound!
    Ted has several pages relating to this in the tedgreene.com teachings section. You'll have to hunt around a bit, and you just may stumble upon other things that you like in the process.
    --Jay

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I think the term “companion minor” is used to refer to preceding a dominant chord by a minor 7th rooted a fifth below it. This can be called ii-V if the dominant chord happens to be the V, but if the dominant chord isn’t the V, the more general term is “companion minor”.

    Of course you can also think of every dominant chord as the V in some key, but if it doesn’t resolve to that key why call it a ii-V? For example, in the tune Lover there are a string of companion minors that look like ii-Vs, but only a few even resolve to a temporary I chord.

    Ella sings it in G:

    Coltrane burns it up in Eb:

    I tend to think of the ii-V change as V7sus4-V since they have the same notes. The same thinking can apply to any companion minor. If companion minors are overused I get tired of them so I’l leave some out and go straight to the dominant.
    Last edited by KirkP; 01-31-2019 at 03:44 PM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Companion minor is not a musical term, he invented it. It's just the ii of V, no mystery.

    What is strange about your examples is that the ii is written after the V to which it applies. That's not usual

    Bb Blues- bar 3 - Bb7/Fm7( companion minor) / Bb/Eb7 or bar 5 - Eb9inv/Eb9inv/Eb9inv/Bbmin9 (companion minor)

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    What is strange about your examples is that the ii is written after the V to which it applies. That's not usual
    I wonder if you’re confusing companion minor with backcycling.

    I found this nice tutorial by Ted Greene.
    http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1976-06-02.pdf
    He explains how to apply companion minor 7ths and companion dominants before finally giving them a name at the bottom of page 5. Ted might have coined the term, but it’s useful. And companion minors are always before the dominant, as in the Lover chart I posted above. He also discusses backcycling.

    Ted’s own words:
    “Minor 7th and dominant 7th type chords that stand in the relationship of Am7 – D7, will be called companions (like Gm7 is the companion m7 of C7, and C7 is the companion dominant 7th of Gm7).”
    Last edited by KirkP; 01-31-2019 at 04:30 PM.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    I like that term, wasn't aware of it....

    Barry Harris has 'important minor' which is similar.

  12. #11
    I think reg refers to it as related minor (or related II-7) and related dominant or V7...

    Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    confusing companion minor
    Absolutely not. Companion minor is an invented term so it doesn't matter what it means.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Absolutely not. Companion minor is an invented term so it doesn't matter what it means.
    Every musical term was invented. Maybe “companion minor” isn’t a conventional term, but since the OP asked about it we should give him the inventor’s definition.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jayv999 View Post
    Yep, Ted Greene used the term "companion minor" and "companion dominant" or "companion 7th" to refer to the package of ii-V. Any dominant chord can be paired with a m7 chord a 5th up, and any minor 7th can be paired with a dominant 7 a 4th up.
    He often said that Wes Montgomery and Debussy made extensive use of this relationship, especially by doing a whole series of them on the same minor/dominant pair...going up and down the scales with different inversions, etc. Beautiful sound!
    Ted has several pages relating to this in the tedgreene.com teachings section. You'll have to hunt around a bit, and you just may stumble upon other things that you like in the process.
    Thanks Jay- This makes sense to me in the context of the example. )

    Will

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    I wonder if you’re confusing companion minor with backcycling.

    I found this nice tutorial by Ted Greene.
    http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1976-06-02.pdf
    He explains how to apply companion minor 7ths and companion dominants before finally giving them a name at the bottom of page 5. Ted might have coined the term, but it’s useful. And companion minors are always before the dominant, as in the Lover chart I posted above. He also discusses backcycling.

    Ted’s own words:
    “Minor 7th and dominant 7th type chords that stand in the relationship of Am7 – D7, will be called companions (like Gm7 is the companion m7 of C7, and C7 is the companion dominant 7th of Gm7).”
    Great reference back to Ted stuff thanks!!!!

    Will

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    I didn't see this before.

    Ted’s own words:
    “Minor 7th and dominant 7th type chords that stand in the relationship of Am7 – D7, will be called companions (like Gm7 is the companion m7 of C7, and C7 is the companion dominant 7th of Gm7).”
    Good, solved then!

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    I think the term “companion minor” is used to refer to preceding a dominant chord by a minor 7th rooted a fifth below it. This can be called ii-V if the dominant chord happens to be the V, but if the dominant chord isn’t the V, the more general term is “companion minor”.

    Of course you can also think of every dominant chord as the V in some key, but if it doesn’t resolve to that key why call it a ii-V? For example, in the tune Lover there are a string of companion minors that look like ii-Vs, but only a few even resolve to a temporary I chord.

    Ella sings it in G:

    Coltrane burns it up in Eb:

    I tend to think of the ii-V change as V7sus4-V since they have the same notes. The same thinking can apply to any companion minor. If companion minors are overused I get tired of them so I’l leave some out and go straight to the dominant.
    Yeah, exactly... I would see that chart as

    | G | % | F#7 | % |
    | F7 | % | E7 | % |
    | Eb7 | % | D7 | % | etc

    (i.e chromatic descent to V7 in dom7s)

    I might even play it like that if it was an old school gig. But if it was the right vibe, I would put in some 'companion minors' like the iReal chart. Just because I'm thinking dominant doesn't mean I play only dominant... I would make decisions based on my experience, knowledge of style and what I am hearing from the other players.

    Most modern charts have companion minors put in... When I play Gypsy Jazz etc I've developed the skill of ignoring them. This is also useful for Barry Harris style soloing approaches.

    Another advantage of this is that companion minor is just one way of decorating a dominant - using a 7sus4 is a related way for instance. Sometimes the ear gets a bit tired of endless ii-V's (I know mine can) though they are obviously a big feature of post-bop jazz.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Having said that, that 4-3 suspension in the chromatic dominant chords is quite an important feature of the original song, basically it's a counter melody:



    So, yeah, but II-V's? Well I'll leave that up to the bass....

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler View Post
    Also R. Kelly.
    Michael Jackson. The King.