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In traditional (Riemann) harmony:
Originally Posted by emanresu
Gosh, from my old harmony classes, only now I remember that at few times when the functions/triads were explained, the teach mentioned that the triad built from III was closer to dominant function than to tonic. I think this was for both - in major and minor keys but not completely sure. But not a clear solid dominant... rather a "mixture".
When trying it out right now, playing G#m -> E with the note D# solving to E half step above, it does sound somewhat "dominanty".
Playing G -> Em, it feels less so, but I can feel the G wanting to go home to E.
Anyway, it seems I am unable for useful theoretical input. Just responded to Ragman. The harmony lessons were actually superbly annoying for 20-yearolds
In Major and Harmonic Minor the triads of Dominant group are those that contain leadtone, VII degree of the scale.
Subdominant group are those that contain VI.
That is connected with the conception that VI and VII are the only degrees that have one direction to resolve.
VI -> V
VII - > I
II and IV degrees can be resooved in both directions.
I,III,V belong to Tonci triad and are not in consideration as stable degrees of the scale
So functional semantics (or routing) of major goes like
T (stability) - > S (instability) - >D (maximum instability) - > T (stability)
Dominant has interesting semantics. It works like an elastic that you try to pull more an more and get more and more tension. That makes it as remote as possible from T and at the same time as tension force increase it makes the return more inevitable.
It has sort of ambiguation: one one hand it is very far from T (at the point of breaking it), on the other it has best chances of all to get back into T.
As for Subdominant it has this ambiguation too... it has much less tension but this also give it some kind of independence right?
So these things are all built around a few different forces that can be implied in music simultaneously.. and that was the composers used for centuries as a tool to create meanings in music.
Let us just try to imply not to chords but to keys of T, S, D ... the creative possibilities become almost limitless but at the same time everthing stay interconected and interdependent.
(It really resembles a universe and the way planets work between each other).
As for Natural Minor it is a bit differnt
S has more tension to T than D
Its functions semantics it
T (stable) - Dnat. (instable) - S (most instablity) - T (stable)
Anyway it is quite a conventional notion for Natural Minor because there is NO natural minor strictly speakin in this tradition described by Riemann's theory.
In classical tradition Natural Harmony is mostly used in specific turnarounds (like Phrygian cadence) or as specific modal colour that has refernce to folk or early music modality... so like a genre semantic refererence, not as a harmonic tool of a language.
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12-18-2018 11:02 AM
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Emanresu -
Well remembered anyway! And I appreciate your suffering :-)
To my ear the G triad is a better sounding dominant: Am - Dm - G - Am. I think that resolves a lot better than Em. Em seems a bit weak. And Dm to G seems reasonable.
Trouble is, this whole thing's about triads and, jazz especially, doesn't really stick to triads. That's one problem. I'd like to ask the OP why he's asking about this at all.
I think it all depends how the chords are used. One way to make the C sound (vaguely) dominant is to put it before the F: Am - Bm7b5 - C - F.
But if it's played: Am - Dm - G - C then it sounds like the tonic because the ear hears it as a modulation into C.
I wish the OP (or someone else) would provide actual musical examples where the C definitely sounds dominant. Who's going to disagree then? Same with the other question about the F as the pre-dom too.
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Cool, thx. Originally Posted by Jonah
So! If we use the harmonic minor, the III triad's 5th degree gets sharpened and voila! it is a damn dominant now
Em - G(#5) - Em.
The world makes sense again!
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But we're not talking about the harmonic minor!
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In the harmonic minor, using 7 chords, the III becomes M7#5. In Em that's GM7#5 which is probably B/G or, at a stretch, B7#5. All very well but it seems to me to be only a theoretical twist on things.
Also, since when did this Riemann character rewrite music? Ideas always breed counter-ideas and there's a whole Wiki site dedicated to Non-Reimannian theory! It's absurd. The next one will be Non-non-Reimannian theory and so it goes on. One can amuse oneself endlessly.
The OP's questions were about the Aeolian mode or natural minor... and no one, as far as I know, has answered them properly. But they may be confused questions, of course, in which case good luck!
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I guess the OP should chime in here. To see if he still insists having the issue with Aeolian and quote or give a link where the classical musician types talk about Aeolian's III being used as dominant. Originally Posted by ragman1
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It's far for being theoretical twist. I've used it without thinking twice as dominant. Originally Posted by ragman1
edit: I give up. This has turned into a mania now. Browsing through my old inventions to find the thing there.... You carry on, have fun
Last edited by emanresu; 12-18-2018 at 01:54 PM.
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Oh, this isn't fun at all, trust me. Originally Posted by emanresu
I don't mean theoretical twist that way. Harmonising the harmonic minor scale produces a M7#5 because of the #7. That's fine, that's the chord. Most people just play it as a M7, of course, but the #7 can certainly be added for colour.
But, as normal, if they want the dominant in Em it's B7 or B7alt. And if you've honestly really used, as you say, GM7#5 as the dominant instead without thinking, that's amazing :-)
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I forgot to mention one thing..
In classical conception there is no Tonic chords... there is only ONE tonic chord it is the tonic triad. (so nothing like 'III functions as Tonic' for sure)
It is quite clearly understood if we get the whole conception as relation between Stability and Instability.
Subdominant and Dominant are different degrees of Instability.
So it is possible that there more shadows of Instability withtin each group, right?
But Stability is opposed to it and obviously there cannot be but ONE expression of Stability. Because it is either Stable and that is it, or if it less stable it is already one of the degrees of Instability.
If I contnue heliocentric analogy, Tonis is the Sun and there is only one Sun in a solar system. Planets can have different tensions if some planet goes too far falls under gravity of another it can be in some kind of transitopn (Modulation) when it simultaneously belongs to two solar systems, then one moment it changes the system (the Key) and we follow it..
now imagine that these planets interacts on different levels (inside and outside their systems), and that these Suns have also their own ierarchy on higher level etc. And that they all always move.
And that someone builds it to express complex inner movements of the human soul,
This is where the symphonies for 1 hour long come from.
But it can be seen on the level of small baroque Largo too.
We should remember that these theories describe the real music, and these are not just a set of boring rules.
They express how people undertood the world, the realtions between things, it is a philosphy that expresses the practice of life.
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Yes and harmonic minor has limited application in calssical harmony - it works only for donminant function... when you harmonize III you use Natural Minor.So! If we use the harmonic minor, the III triad's 5th degree gets sharpened and voila!
It is as simple as you described. They just needed good Dominant. And Melodic Minor added VI# to fill the jump betwen natVI and VII# it was used in ascending lines, in descending it was natural minor usually.
This is not crazy science... this is useful tool that heplps to hear music better sometimes.
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Found one. III#5.mp3 - Google Drive
94.bar
http://noodid.ee/images/kasutajad/si...antaasia2f.pdf
Ok now I'm done with all this
Crap there's a typo. Should be G B D# F#
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Good idea. You go first, I'll just check everything's safe...
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I did not get it... sorry. Where is it?94.bar
http://noodid.ee/images/kasutajad/si...antaasia2f.pdf
Ok now I'm done with all this
Crap there's a typo. Should be G B D# F#
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That last chord in 94. measure. But there is a typo. Should start from the note G. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Oh I see...That last chord in 94. measure. But there is a typo. Should start from the note G.
It is your piece?
I am asking becasue otherwise I would think it should be F# there as an inversion Dominant chord in melodic minor...
But of course anyone can choose whatever he wants... if we are not talking about stylization.
But if you take for example music from Schumann it would have bee F# in that place for sure)))
I try to say that everything I wrote above is connected with certain period in music history, musical styles and musical language.
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It's mine yes. I played it for a long time, when relearning, the fingers remembered it the right way and noticed the typo later. That wasn't meant to be nice clean triad there.
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Well I think he got boxed in by your question, to be fair, and said Aeolian. The OP said in "minor key", and the III and VI symbols were non-specific, and finally jazz was mentioned. Originally Posted by ragman1
So to clarify a bit, I would say that compositions are in minor, and are free to use chords derived from Natural/Aeolian, Melodic and Harmonic Minor - especially in jazz. Natural, Melodic and Harmonic Minor are not keys. We don't say the tune or piece is "in D Melodic Minor" we say "in D Minor".
So for jazz, and for III and VI chords we can fairly say:
Tonic function:
bIIIMaj7
bIIIMaj7#5
VI-7b5
Subdominant function:
bVIMaj7
Scale sources for the above in order are: Aeolian, Mel. Minor, Mel. Minor, Aeolian.
Others in this thread have spelled out traditional/classical usages and considerations...Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 12-19-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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