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Jazzers tend to call an major minor seventh chord dominant, which is one massive difference to classical theory, where dominant is a function; not a chord colour.
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12-16-2018 05:44 AM
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Am - Bm7b5 - C - F
Originally Posted by thared33
Dm - Em - Am - %
Am - Bm7b5 - C - F
Em - Dm - Am - %
I'm surprised you can't hear it. It's 100% Aeolian. The point is that the VI (F) chord becomes the focal point. The progression moves up to it and then down again. It sounds like a strong IV chord and the III before it sounds as though it's functioning almost as a III7 because probably that's what the ear is used to.
I also played it with 7 chords - Am7 - Bm7b5 - CM7 - FM7 etc - and it makes no difference.
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I know. That's what the OP said. That's the point of the demo. Are we asleep today? Originally Posted by christianm77
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This is basically about the names for things. It’s not really about the sound of things. Em chord sounds like Em. Originally Posted by ragman1
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If I remember correctly, there was also perfectly good term - minor dominant - in classical harmony. Built on natural scale, no alteration of the 7th step (when the VI is considered the 1st - tonic). So, jazzy thinking: III -> VI, classical thinking: mV -> mI. Can use the minor seventh chords.
But I haven't noticed M7 ever been used as a dominant chord . Only major triad. If trying to play I as M7 and V as M7, try as I might, they switch to VI and I in my mind.
Classical theory treats those roman numerals more like as function's markers rather than as fixed chords, tied to natural scale steps. The latter is much easier and makes way more sense in jazz and pop music in general.
The good question is - where the classical harmony stops? I mean, it is quite a certain period and rules. Very particular sound, but it's meant to explain/express only that. Didn't the pinnacle of the theory happen 200 years ago or something?
Oh, for example Take Five has VI - III, where the III surely sounds like a natural dominant.
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In aeolian the V chord is a minor.
I agree that in, say, a C major scale, if we're dealing only with triads, the G major performs the dominant (V) function. But it doesn't make it a dominant chord, which was the implication.
This is apparently a discussion about two different things.
Mind you, I'm also not convinced that the V triad isn't a dominant in disguise. Western harmony is tertiary and it's a short step from the triad to a dom7. Also a melody over those chords (V-I) is almost bound to contain the F, making it sound like a dominant even if it technically isn't.
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Dominant is a scale degree. The 5th note in a diatonic scale (major or minor) is termed "dominant". Originally Posted by ragman1
Chords can be built from that scale degree.
(sorry to nitpick but that's what were doing anyway, and is what we always do with theory threads, so...)
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How much of the preceding discussion have you read? Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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You were referring to a V chord as not being dominant. What I'm saying is that is a fallacy, by definition. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Er what? That's the post I'm referring to. What I am saying is that it is insufficient, so in essence am agreeing with you.
"some classical type musicians say" saying xyz is not a sturdy reference, and is subject to misinterpretation and/or faulty memory etc. Insufficient.
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You haven't read or understood the previous discussion.
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Shore I have. I've read enough of this "discussion about confusion" (which is what it is).
And I took notice of errors and unfortunate references to VI and bVI as being the same etc. How much focus does a person need to invest in errors?
But it's all good, the OP was a question, not an answer.
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So that’s a no then. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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Is there a specific - and concise - summary to the OP?
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Classical: dominant is a function that is tied to scale degrees that the chords get built on. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Jazz: dominant is either a function (derived directly from classical theory) or a certain type of (often isolated&independent) 7th chord(which happens quite often... I guess).
It gets messy when those two worlds collide.
Hm. I hope I got it right
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Thanks for that eman, but the OP was about the function of III and VI chords in minor, and further, how they may be different in traditional vs. jazz harmony.
The opening question was conflicted from the start (IMO) because it didn't differentiate between bVI and VI, nor did it address the optional scale sources for the III (or bIII if one prefers).
OTOH - The question of a V chord being something other than dominant is something that Ragman brought up later, and while interesting, is a different topic. This OP topic, as it says, is about III and bVI and/or VI.
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I understood what the OP meant, he was putting the question in classical theoretic language... Nothing you talked about is really terribly relevant as far as I can see. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Classical theorists call degree VI of the natural minor VI, they don't call it bVI.
But that is (I have posted above) probably the reason for the conflict. I think classical theorists just assume the same functions are carried over from major.
The harmonic minor's reason for existing comes from that type of logic..
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For instance from wikipedia:
"Carl Dahlhaus (Dahlhaus 1990, 102) lists the characteristic schemata of tonal harmony, "typified in the compositional formulas of the 16th and early 17th centuries," as the "complete cadence" I–ii–V–I, I–IV–V–I, I–IV–I–V–I; the circle of fifths progression I–IV–vii°–iii–vi–ii–V–I; and the major–minor parallelism: minor v–i–VII–III equals major iii–vi–V–I; or minor III–VII–i–v equals major I–V–vi–iii. The last of these progressions is characterized by "retrograde" harmonic motion."
So just an example, only makes sense if they are talking about major and natural minor degrees..
Another big difference from jazz common practice in this area
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No, the dominant question was in the OP's first statement in #1. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
thared33
Jazz guys usually appear to be of the consensus that the III in minor is more of a tonic and that the VI is a pre-dominant. However, more than a few times I’ve seen some classical type musicians say that the III is more of a dominant and that the VI is a tonic.
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Presumably pertinent to the OP's question is that while we might put a III chord on a I chord to get an extended I chord, and therefore think of both as compatible, chords - therefore the same function, this is not something that tends to happen in classical music.
The main place one would come across a III in the key is if it was going towards a VI. Obviously, the III can by diatonic, or chromatically altered (what the classical guys sometimes called majorised.) VI is tonic function, so it makes sense to call III dominant... So the same mentality gets applied to minor.
The III VI II V I is obviously found in many jazz standards as well as Bach etc. But in minor we would think bIII bVI II V I in jazz theory - might be a bit too far from that cycle four idea...
I'm sure there's something someone has to say about the tritone leap from bVI to II, but not sure if I'd be able to track it down Piston's Harmony, maybe?
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OTOH the first fella seems to think of the minor mediant degree (III) to be tonic in function much as I would, and the other guy says it’s dominant, both classical musicians, so I don’t think it’s necessarily settled between theorists:
What is the function of the III chord in a minor key? - Quora
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Personally I just play the chords and if it sounds good, it is.
... goes back to sleep... :-)
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Let me clarify for everyone. I had two basic questions or topics of conversation relating to chord function. Both of these questions are about triads built from the Aeolian, natural minor scale. No modal mixture, accidentals, or even 7ths or other extensions. Just plain natural minor, Aeolian triads, and how to look at their functions.
1) Why do some classical theorists say that the III triad in minor (bIII, as in C major in the key of A minor) can serve as a dominant type chord, but jazz guys more often than not consider it a tonic? Emphasis on the classical theory dominant thing, since I already understand perfectly why jazz guys look at it as a tonic type triad (because it has two notes in common with the A minor tonic, and it is often used as a place to modulate to, at least temporarily, since it's the relative major. I understand this perfectly). The C major triad's supposed dominant function in the key of A minor is what I'm curious about.
2) Why is the VI triad in minor (bVI, as in F major in the key of A minor) looked at as a pre-dominant in jazz, but a tonic in classical? Emphasis on the jazz theory pre-dominant thing, since I already understand why classical guys would look at it as a tonic type triad (because it simply has two common tones with the A minor tonic).
As a bonus, I read in at least two places where someone said something like "the bVI chord is a tritone away from the ii chord so it's looked at as a pre-dominant". There was even mention of a tritone substitution, I think. I'm not sure I get what they were on about.
2nd bonus: if the III (bIII) chord can be looked at as a dominant, what is it a dominant of? The tonic chord? Or the VI (bVI)? I need to read that Quora page that someone linked I guess. The first reply up top says it's a tonic, and the 2nd guy below says it's a dominant. I'll read the 2nd guy's explanation.
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I think in truely fuctional claasical harmony there is no 'Aeolian'... there is only harmonic and melodic minor minor.
To me both III and IV in minor are connected with modulations in classical harmony...
or when it is really Aeolian it has stylistic reference to folk or ealy music usually but then it loses functional quality... and have a modal reference. Like natural dominant (Em in A minor) etc.
I think it is pretty simple.
I do not know whos says waht.. there are tons of classical music (from approx .1780 till 1900) where you can find lots of minor key music and it is not a big problem to analyze how it functionally works...1) Why do some classical theorists say that the III triad in minor (bIII, as in C major in the key of A minor) can serve as a dominant type chord, but jazz guys more often than not consider it a tonic? Emphasis on the classical theory dominant thing, since I already understand perfectly why jazz guys look at it as a tonic type triad (because it has two notes in common with the A minor tonic, and it is often used as a place to modulate to, at least temporarily, since it's the relative major. I understand this perfectly). The C major triad's supposed dominant function in the key of A minor is what I'm curious about.
2) Why is the VI triad in minor (bVI, as in F major in the key of A minor) looked at as a pre-dominant in jazz, but a tonic in classical? Emphasis on the jazz theory pre-dominant thing, since I already understand why classical guys would look at it as a tonic type triad (because it simply has two common tones with the A minor tonic).
Function is not just about common notes, it is a a territory of tension - you leave one territory and enter anpther.. it is not always easy to make clear line between them - especially on the border...
There is not science in it... only personal experience.
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I don't know where you get this stuff from. The tonic is the first chord or tone, the pre (or sub) dominant is the fourth, and the dominant is the fifth. In A natural minor that's Am, Dm and Em. In C that's C, F and G.
The second, third and seventh are completely irrelevant.
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