The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    There’s no intrinsic reason why alt should be Dominant though from the construction of the scale UNLIKE EVERY OTHER CHORD SCALE IN COMMON USE, we just use it that way.....
    I have just one intrinsic reason why I consider it dominant, the sound of the notes.
    The sound for me far outweighs the logic of building chords in 3rds.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah the altered scale is an enharmonic fudge. It’s a m7b5 scale, really which where the name superlocrian comes from.

    1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

    Oh the other hand the application is altered, so that’s probably why we use that name.

    1 b2 #2 3 b5 b6 b7

    The 3rd is really a b4, and the #9 is really a b3

    But everyone pretends and it’s fine
    This is what I was looking for.

    I haven't touched a guitar in 3 years and theory makes my brain hurt. This is a sadistic hobby.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77


    but the bVI Lydian Dominant (understand, Jazzstdnt?) subs for IIm7b5 in Real World playing, so there is a connection because that’s the same MM, if you want to look at it in CST terms.


    I understand minor has lots of options, including bVI and II-7(b5) but those aren't MM chords.

  5. #29
    Second Genesis

    I have 3 questions

    1. So this lead sheet - Second Genesis - those chords that say Alt are referring to the chord that is built on the 7th scale degree of the jazz minor?

    2. If So, include the 4th (or enharmonic 3rd), and the 7th? Do I have complete liberty beyond that regarding which tones I include?

    3. How do you approach the ii in a ii Valt?

    I'm going to sit down with the recording now.

    I'm very grateful for your responses.

  6. #30

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    OP... when you don't have a REFERENCE for what your trying to do in music.... the results usually have complications....

    If your stacking chords using thirds.... using the MM scale as your note source, the results are what it is. If you decide to try and make this process,(stacking etc...), work in some type of context.... like Major / Minor Functional Harmony. You need to make musical choices based on Maj/min functional harmony.

    When you start to look and hear chords... (the results from your stacking etc...), with tonal relationships... you need guidelines, basic rules of how the chords react to each other.... and in a musical contexts. Also how notes react to other notes and which notes control those reactions.... All these guidelines are that Reference. Generally we call this organization... Functional Harmony, and most of the time... Maj/min functional harmony. All the guidelines... are based on Ionian, or Major.

    All chords have some type of tonal responsibility, a perception of movement or sustain... or somewhere in between. yada, yada

    If you start to get into Jazz harmony, the guidelines or rules can change, there are more possibilities.... modal concepts... modal interchange, blue notes and MM. Basically many of the embellishment concepts of Maj/minor functional harmony... have possibilities of developing Functional organization.

    Really the reason or source for the organization of Functional harmony is sound, not the label. The label is the result of which REFERENCE you choose to use for the organization of the functional tonality, with resulting diatonic harmony.

    B D F A C Eb G... the chord from the scale or mode from the 7th degree of Cmm.... is typically a Dominant function chord from using modal interchange. It's common practice to use in a dominant function roll... B7alt going to Emin or maj. So the labeling should reflect that context... using the chord in a dominant functional roll.

    Personally... we went from using the V7b9b13 chord from Harmonic minor or the Dim. whole tone to adding a #9 to the V7b9b13 chord which got rid of the folkish gap between b9 and 3rd and trying to help harmonically frame that #9 blues note... or the b7 of the target of the V7 chord to finally hearing how MM worked...

    Could also be used as a Min7b5 chord, not that common. But if you did... you have a few harmony possibilities for musical organization... and the spelling, the label should reflect that use. generally becomes more of a secondary or sequential Dominant type of functional movement...

  7. #31

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    I honestly think the textbook thing is simple. It’s a dominant scale and we fudge it. There’s not much else to say in the general run of things.

    Maybe someone can dig out their copy of chord scale theory? Or maybe the op can buy it?

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    I have just one intrinsic reason why I consider it dominant, the sound of the notes.
    The sound for me far outweighs the logic of building chords in 3rds.
    That’s a good enough reason. Let the theory boffins worry about why....

  9. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s a good enough reason. Let the theory boffins worry about why....
    This is how I learned Diatonic harmony. I assumed it would be a good way to learn melodic minor harmony.

    This thread has been helpful.

  10. #34

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    C Eb G B D F A
    i minMAJ7 chord with a 9, 11, 13 ( I-maj7)

    D F A C Eb G B
    ii min7 (b9, 11, b13)...*(nat 13 not b13) more commonly notated...II-7b9)


    Eb G B D F A C
    III MAJ7#5 (9, #11, IIImaj7#5 Lydian Aug.

    F A C Eb G B D
    IV7 (9, #11, 13) IV7#11 Lydian Dominant

    G B D F A C Eb
    V7 (9, 11, b13) V7b13 Mixo b13

    A C Eb G B D F
    min7b5 (9, 11, b13) VI-7b5 nat9 Aeolian b5

    B D F A C Eb G
    VII-7b5 b11b13, super Locrian... Altered or V7b9#9b5b13... sometimes last 20 years...b5 is #11

    Yea... keep it simple. and that's what the result will be. Nothing wrong with that.... Fudge, Christian and his analogies... love them.

    Of course, if you get into arranging, maybe composition...maybe even some hipper tunes, some of the Fudgie info might be useful.... but in general, most guitarist don't need it... the old days of musicianship etc...really isn't needed.

    Most can't read the notation, or understand what it implies...beyond vanilla etc... no one cares, why complicate what works. I say this too much.... your "technical skills"... will get you further along most musical roads than anything. I'm not sure what's worse.... a player who can't play, or a player who can talk musicianship and still can't play...



    Please don't take these comments personal, just for general info. and entertainment. Want to check on your technical skills... perform some new music live.... or if you don't gig that often, try playing through a few new charts in a row... somewhat like your playing a live gig.



    Record it... then check out your results.



    Memorization or pre-playing tunes is great practice... but generally not the goal when playing jazz. Just like memorizing melodies and changes etc.... memorizing the organization of what and why scales and chords work in different music contexts is also not the goal... your trying to become aware of how to play tunes in a jazz style, there are many possibilities, and it helps to become aware of how... other musicians understand and play jazz also. If your young... you might as well get it right. You'll be happier later.





    yea as I also said... labels come after the fact with some type of reference... what's interesting... in just in my relatively short time span as a pro......40 + years... My understanding or how I hear those sound... has gone through a few changes. Many of the labels i used as a younger player... were not complete pictures, even wrong depending on the context.

    Once you get the basic chords from the basic scales together..... you'll begin to get your chord patterns together. How you combine chords to become a single sound... 4 chords basically become 1 chord.... 1 function. Somewhat like subdividing rhythmically... 1 quarter note becomes two 8ths or four 16th, It's still just one beat... anyway when you start using chord patterns.... the organization of which and how you combine those chords... works better when you have harmonic understandings of where they can be from....

    Ex. your altered chord is from Harmonic min. that B7altered would have a nat. 5th..."E"... if you choose that B7alt to come from MM... that E would be either a b5 or #11..." Eb". The chord pattern should reflect you harmonic choice. Eventually as you expand your skills.... and use more chords comping or soloing... the extensions even become more complicated, without organization.... the next thing you know... your playing mudd... that brown stuff. (or keep the vanilla rolling)

    Some really incredible players... I've performed with some, have the physical and big ears skills of just fudging notes. Making the adjustment live on the fly. When you gig 6 or 7 times a week... doubles etc... it can happen. But that's a lot of sound to keep current in your head and ears.
    Sorry for somewhat extended answer....