The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Bb7 going to a Bdim to an F7
    Which is precisely what I am quite sure sounds bloody awful :-)

    Try Bbo instead and feel the difference. On the guitar those notes resolve naturally, the fingering just works automatically. Shift it all up one to Bo and it fails. Dismally.

    Listen to my experiment in #69, it's so obvious.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I understand, but I'm not sure that pushing forwarding into and through an F line would make any difference to the actual effect of the notes over the C7. Except perhaps to disguise them slightly.
    That's exactly what I'm saying, it all depends on the sense of the line. Its like German.... the verb goes at the end of the sentence....

    It's like if you played Cm6 on C#o7 in isolation you'd think it was crap, but if you had the soloist play a line that strongly outlines the progression C Cm6 | Bm and the accomp go C C#o7 | G - suddenly it works. Because the function of both the C#o7 and Cm6 chords are voice-leading from C to G, right?

    They aren't really a thing in their own right, any more that the B is in the B C D C neighbour tone line on a C7 chord. It's just a passing chord.

    Similarly, if I play Bb Bo7 F on Gm7 C7 F, it will work, just as Bb Bbm6 F works. In fact, it will even sound cool if the line is cool.

    Recorded jazz c1920-1960 is full of this stuff. People playing for instance two versions of blues on top of each other... Or swapping between two versions of the changes in the same line... Invisible Paths, Steve Coleman calls them - not vertical substitutes, but different routes to a destination.

    This is a bit of a debate.... Gunther Schuller actually defined these sorts of things as 'mistakes' in his writing - as if anything Louis Armstrong ever played was a mistake. Academics, huh.

    Ethan Iverson OTOH sees them as a feature of harmonic jazz. I agree with him. They are everywhere. Therefore, they can't be considered 'wrong.'

    I think Reg's concept of tonal targets might be the same thing put differently, btw.

    I know bebop lines have that quality, absolutely, but this is just a standard 12-bar jazz blues. No doubt it can be played as hard bop but I don't think it started life that way.
    Well I play bop on pretty much everything, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask :-)

    So does Milt Jackson tho. Mind you that Dbmaj7 on C7 is fairly standard backdoor (Eb dominant) stuff.

  4. #78

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    I think the issue is that he used a fragment of Bdim.

    So, you hear Bb/D then B/D then C/Eb.

    Sounded great.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That's exactly what I'm saying, it all depends on the sense of the line. Its like German.... the verb goes at the end of the sentence...
    I understand all that. But 'at the end of the sentence' is right, we're talking the end of the chorus. When I played the whole chorus I did go through the Bb7/Bo - F because it makes sense at that point. But at the end it doesn't; it needs a pause at that point. Somewhat of a pause anyway.

    It's like if you played Cm6 on C#o7 in isolation you'd think it was crap, but if you had the soloist play a line that strongly outlines the progression C Cm6 | Bm and the accomp go C C#o7 | G - suddenly it works. Because the function of both the C#o7 and Cm6 chords are voice-leading from C to G, right?

    They aren't really a thing in their own right, any more that the B is in the B C D C neighbour tone line on a C7 chord. It's just a passing chord.
    That's what I'm saying. In the middle it's just a passing chord.

    Similarly, if I play Bb Bo7 F on Gm7 C7 F, it will work, just as Bb Bbm6 F works. In fact, it will even sound cool if the line is cool.
    I just woke up thinking that. But I wouldn't apply that kind of theory to a nice simple 12-bar. That's how to get your knickers in a right old twist.

    Ethan Iverson OTOH sees them as a feature of harmonic jazz. I agree with him. They are everywhere. Therefore, they can't be considered 'wrong.'
    Ah, I never said anything was 'wrong' in the condemnatory sense, I just said those notes over that chord sound like rubbish. They're the wrong diminished sound at that point. I'm sticking to that because there's very little doubt about it.

    Well I play bop on pretty much everything, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask :-)
    On the contrary, I think you're probably the wrong person to answer it!

    So does Milt Jackson tho.
    I said before I tabbed out and slowed down all of his solos on that transcription. It's all very standard fare - chords as written, a bit of Bo in bar 6, and an altered sound at the end. Dead simple, nothing fancy at all. Have a look for yourself.

    Mind you that Dbmaj7 on C7 is fairly standard backdoor (Eb dominant) stuff.
    We've already said all that, look back. Anyway, this is beginning to loop now, not a good sign.

    I await your demonstration!

  6. #80

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    Bar 8 it is variation similar to| Am D| (or |Am Ab|) to |Gm| in bar 9 .. after |Gm|, ...
    ... in bar 10 soloist continues with harmonic rhythm by playing |Db C |, to |F| in bar 11.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I understand all that. But 'at the end of the sentence' is right, we're talking the end of the chorus. When I played the whole chorus I did go through the Bb7/Bo - F because it makes sense at that point. But at the end it doesn't; it needs a pause at that point. Somewhat of a pause anyway.



    That's what I'm saying. In the middle it's just a passing chord.



    I just woke up thinking that. But I wouldn't apply that kind of theory to a nice simple 12-bar. That's how to get your knickers in a right old twist.



    Ah, I never said anything was 'wrong' in the condemnatory sense, I just said those notes over that chord sound like rubbish. They're the wrong diminished sound at that point. I'm sticking to that because there's very little doubt about it.



    On the contrary, I think you're probably the wrong person to answer it!



    I said before I tabbed out and slowed down all of his solos on that transcription. It's all very standard fare - chords as written, a bit of Bo in bar 6, and an altered sound at the end. Dead simple, nothing fancy at all. Have a look for yourself.



    We've already said all that, look back. Anyway, this is beginning to loop now, not a good sign.

    I await your demonstration!
    You’ve framed this in such a way I’m not sure any demonstration would assuage you lol

  8. #82

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    Get on with it. If you make your Bo sound like it makes sense I'll be the first to grovel.

    But, of course, anyone can make the whole thing sound so completely out/beboppy/altered that by the time we get to the end it doesn't matter what the notes are!

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Get on with it. If you make your Bo sound like it makes sense I'll be the first to grovel.
    I don’t actually really care what you think tbh.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t actually really care what you think tbh.
    Sorry needlessly grumpy. It’s been a long weekend and I wish I was near a guitar long enough to play the bloody example which would take all of 5 secs.

    Cold turkey.

    Anyway, you could still dismiss that line under the terms of your own aesthetic and be right to do so. It seems like you have so many caveats in your previous posts there’s hardly any point cos you would just say, oh that sounds like bop to me, or that’s outside etc.

    I have enough hoops to jump through in my life without jumping through yours. So with all due respect and in the nicest possible way: get lost.

    (I’d do it for money.)

  11. #85

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    Don't worry, bit grumpy myself, possibly the snow.

    Um...

    Well, Billie's Bounce is, of course, a bebop favourite and it's wrong of me to say it shouldn't be played bebop. Otoh, we were talking about Milt Jackson's solo which is, as I've said, pretty straightforward stuff.

    I understand exactly what you meant about playing through the bar, i.e. a driving forward motion, etc, and it's true that the ear can tolerate almost any dissonant notes over a dom. However, bebop notwithstanding, I'm not for a moment going to accede that the sound of a Bo over a C7 sounds any good. Dammit, I've just done a hundred trials of it! The only dim that works is the Bb/E/G/C# one... but I've said all that.

    Anyway, happy to get stuffed because it doesn't matter. I am aware, though, that it means you won't be expected to make your point with a recorded example now... funny that :-)

  12. #86

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    Quite interesting to see what George and Wes made of it.

    Billie_s_Bounce_George_Benson_C.pdf

    Doc - Feb 9, 2012 2-53 PM.pdf

  13. #87

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    Now that I reviewed the argument, it seems to be whether you can get from Gm7 to F via Bdim7.

    That puts B D F Ab against C7. Not obvious choices, eh?

    The question that occurs to me is this: If you play a nice line on Gm7 and a compatible line on Fmaj, can't you do just about anything in between if the larger line works melodically? Isn't that the whole thing about targets?

    In this particular case, my thinking is that you can use Bdim7 to get some outside sounding notes, but you have to be extremely careful where they're placed. It is not going to work to play 8 eighth notes of Gm7 followed by 8 eighth notes of Bo followed by 8 eighth notes of Fmaj.

    Rather, you're more likely to make music by playing just a few well placed 8ths from Bo and resolving to Fmaj before the end of the Bo bar. When I transcribe an outside sound I like, typically that's what I find.

  14. #88

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    Bo resolving to Fmaj is quite common. Bo is the same as Fo so in a sense you'd be resolving from Io to Imaj7 like in Jobim's tune Corcovado (quiet nights) in bar 7. If you look at the notes in the chord F Ab B D, the Ab and B want to resolve up to A and C.

    But back to the OP. He was playing Bo7 going to F.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    Bo resolving to Fmaj is quite common. Bo is the same as Fo so in a sense you'd be resolving from Io to Imaj7 like in Jobim's tune Corcovado (quiet nights) in bar 7. If you look at the notes in the chord F Ab B D, the Ab and B want to resolve up to A and C.

    But back to the OP. He was playing Bo7 going to F.
    The OP's #1 post was about bar 6. That's Bb7/Bo - F, which is what they all do. No problem there.

    Then, in his post #7, he asks about the line used in bar 10 and repeated in bar 22 over C7-F. We decided that it basically outlines a DbM7. No problem there.

    Except that somewhere the two got muddled and now they're trying to justify the use of the Bo in the first post over the C7 in the second.

    I say nothing.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Now that I reviewed the argument, it seems to be whether you can get from Gm7 to F via Bdim7.

    That puts B D F Ab against C7. Not obvious choices, eh?

    The question that occurs to me is this: If you play a nice line on Gm7 and a compatible line on Fmaj, can't you do just about anything in between if the larger line works melodically? Isn't that the whole thing about targets?

    In this particular case, my thinking is that you can use Bdim7 to get some outside sounding notes, but you have to be extremely careful where they're placed. It is not going to work to play 8 eighth notes of Gm7 followed by 8 eighth notes of Bo followed by 8 eighth notes of Fmaj.

    Rather, you're more likely to make music by playing just a few well placed 8ths from Bo and resolving to Fmaj before the end of the Bo bar. When I transcribe an outside sound I like, typically that's what I find.
    And my point (still) is: why torture yourself trying to make it work when it plainly doesn't?

    Go down a notch to Bbo: Bb C# E G.

    Over C7? Perfection. Except I wouldn't use it at that point in a 12-bar, I'd use an altered sound :-)

  17. #91

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    I read the one about Gm7 C7 and started there.

    But, even though that may have been a confused response to post #7, it still produces a valid point about targeting.

    As an exercise, can the Bo be made to sound good over the C7 by virtue of playing a strong enough line?

    My guess is that a strong line can create bitonality, but I'll have to try it to figure out whether I can get the bitonality to sound good.

  18. #92

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    As an exercise, can the Bo be made to sound good over the C7 by virtue of playing a strong enough line?
    It does sound good. Bo line over C7 resoving to F is one the most common cliches.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    It does sound good. Bo line over C7 resoving to F is one the most common cliches.
    Got any examples (as it's very common)? Even just one?