The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Notice how the Bo7 chord tones are on the beat, except for the enclosure of C

    ' E F G Ab Bb B D | C F A

    The important thing about bebop is to know what notes are harmonic, and which notes aren't. E G and Bb are not important to the harmony. They are just filler to make the line work rhythmically. In this case they work well with the melodic contour, but if we were to exchange them for the diatonic notes of C minor 6th-dim, say:

    Wouldn't drastically alter the sense of the line

    ' Eb F G Ab A B D | C F A

    It's like in hand drumming - you have accents and ghost notes.

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  3. #27

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    Christian,

    as much as I like this explanation (very barryharris-like))) I still hear the difference... and very strong difference

    Wouldn't drastically alter the sense of the line

    ' Eb F G Ab A B D | C F A
    to my ear it changes it quite a lot...
    I wrote above why. post#10

    But suppose that it depends on what the ear is focused on more..

  4. #28

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    Yeah I agree actually - bad example.

    I do think that move Bo7 --> F, really suits a diminished scale sound. More so than a functional V-I sub dim, like Eo7 or something

  5. #29

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    He's just playing a Bo7 arpeggio but approaching each chord tone by a semi tone below, or just playing the scale.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    He's just playing a Bo7 arpeggio but approaching each chord tone by a semi tone below, or just playing the scale.
    approaching each note by a semitone and playing the scale are different ways ... I think... even if the notes are the same.

    Anyway for me it does not sound like 'approaching by semi-tone' thing... epecially considering it is C7 behind it..

  7. #31

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    I still hear it as F dim - as much altered Fminor... I will dare say even it altered IVm to C...

    by the way C7 is dominant to F but F7 is subdominant to C...

    Why subdominant is never a discussion in jazz? Blues is all about subdoninant being dominant and vice versa..

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    approaching each note by a semitone and playing the scale are different ways ... I think... even if the notes are the same.

    Anyway for me it does not sound like 'approaching by semi-tone' thing... epecially considering it is C7 behind it..
    But the notes that land on the beat are F, Ab, B.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I still hear it as F dim - as much altered Fminor... I will dare say even it altered IVm to C...

    by the way C7 is dominant to F but F7 is subdominant to C...

    Why subdominant is never a discussion in jazz? Blues is all about subdoninant being dominant and vice versa..
    He is playing Bo7 clear as day. If he was playing ivm he would have played a C not a B.

  10. #34

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    Bo?

    A Bo would sound like a diminished thing and it doesn't. It's true the notes are from the Bo scale but that doesn't mean much. Not only that, why would he play a Bo before the F? He might play a Bb or C# dim to mimic C7b9 but he isn't.

    The notes in that clip are straight from a Bbm pentatonic, ii of Eb7, which is the backdoor to F.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Bo?

    A Bo would sound like a diminished thing and it doesn't. It's true the notes are from the Bo scale but that doesn't mean much. Not only that, why would he play a Bo before the F? He might play a Bb or C# dim to mimic C7b9 but he isn't.

    The notes in that clip are straight from a Bbm pentatonic, ii of Eb7, which is the backdoor to F.
    What?

    He is playing a Bo/Fo whatever you wanna call it.

    Why would he play a Bo before an F? Well because the chords of the blues go from Bo to F at that same exact point he is playing the Bo and resolving it to F.

    You said so yourself in a previous post, with the transcription of the solo.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Bo?

    A Bo would sound like a diminished thing and it doesn't. It's true the notes are from the Bo scale but that doesn't mean much. Not only that, why would he play a Bo before the F? He might play a Bb or C# dim to mimic C7b9 but he isn't.

    The notes in that clip are straight from a Bbm pentatonic, ii of Eb7, which is the backdoor to F.
    Blues in F uses a Bb7 in bar 5 and often uses B° in bar 6. Bar 7 would be F/C moving to the D7 in bar 8.

  13. #37

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    He is playing Bo7 clear as day. If he was playing ivm he would have played a C not a B.
    I did not say F minor triad... I said F minor sound - as opposite to major .. I wrote F dim - it is enharmonic to Bdim but I think different root matters

    PS
    I was mistaken about C7 behind , the harmony goes Bb of course

  14. #38

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    Just to explain better


  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    What?

    He is playing a Bo/Fo whatever you wanna call it.

    Why would he play a Bo before an F? Well because the chords of the blues go from Bo to F at that same exact point he is playing the Bo and resolving it to F.

    You said so yourself in a previous post, with the transcription of the solo.
    A blues uses diminished transitions between dominants, not a V-I. And if it was C7 - F7 it wouldn't be Bo anyway.

    If I said so before it was because there were two questions from the OP. This is the second and I haven't addressed it before now.

  16. #40

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    In any case, as I often keep saying, how do we know he even meant to play those exact notes at all? It's right in the middle of a solo, maybe they just tripped off his fingers. Maybe if he saw everyone desperately trying to analyse four or five notes he can't even remember playing he'd be laughing himself silly.

    Or pity us.

  17. #41

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    Anyway, forget all that. Record C7 - F (not F7) and play Bbm pentatonic over the C7. Bingo. Try it and see. Probably works even better using the Ab maj scale. Just as good.

    Bb mel minor is perfect but not what Milt was doing.

    (And then play B/D/F/Ab dim. Complete rubbish. The Bbo would work but it sounds like a diminished run... and the OP's clip DOES NOT, it sounds like an altered run. That's the point)

  18. #42

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    n any case, as I often keep saying, how do we know he even meant to play those exact notes at all? It's right in the middle of a solo, maybe they just tripped off his fingers. Maybe if he saw everyone desperately trying to analyse four or five notes he can't even remember playing he'd be laughing himself silly.
    Just in btwen of it all.. I never care about what the player/author/composer meant or thought litterally... when I say 'he thought' - I mean only the music as expretion of mentality and personality... whhat he really though (and what is thinking for him in genral) does not matter anything in that case...
    'we doubt the speaker, not the toungue we hear'

  19. #43

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    And if it was C7
    It was Bb...

    don_oz means Bb7 - Bo - F/C...

    But whatever..

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Why subdominant is never a discussion in jazz? Blues is all about subdoninant being dominant and vice versa..
    Is it not?

    Bb7-->F is just as important as C7-->F in terms of the blues, as you say.

  21. #45

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    Bo7 is movement to F/C.

    Bbm is also.

    It's just GUBBINS.

  22. #46

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    I don't know what you're all talking about. I think you're trying to bend the fact to fit the theory.

  23. #47

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    Gubbins

  24. #48

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    Not wrong.

  25. #49

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    I am kind of losing this thread...

  26. #50

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    gubbins!!!