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Re. that timing issue earlier --
I'm not 100% sure if this was the one but here's quite a good example. Not a horn player :-)
I've a feeling that there'll be lots of you saying 'Yeah, well, it's easy once you're in the zone/groove/whatever'. Not so sure myself...
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11-18-2018 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I know what you mean I think.. but still could you point out the exact place - this video has a score
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Compare this to the Raney example. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on how "Bebop" it is, or isn't...
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It's Montgomery-ish)))Compare this to the Raney example. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on how "Bebop" it is, or isn't...
As much as I admire Jimmy Raney ... there is something undisputably personal in Wes's playing that just puts him miles away.
Anyways...
it is difficult to compare because Wes does some bluesm does some of his trademark things and also Wes does some motivic development of original tune in the solo... it is too different...
In my opinion one of the feature of post-bop music is taking short (and fast) bop licks and idioms and turn them into more articulated and personalized motives... they loose them up a bit.
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Wes certainly went through a massive bebop phase in the 50s - I wouldn't necessarily describe his playing on that clip as 'bebop' per se, the main reason being, harmonic language, but it certainly builds on bop - especially in the phrasing and rhythm. Originally Posted by princeplanet
If I had to say a broad principle post-bop phrasing is more 'upbeaty' while swing phrasing is strongly rooted in the downbeat. If you just fed a Lester Young and a Charlie Parker solo into a computer and told it to break down the proportion of upbeat to downbeat accents, Parker would have more upbeat accents than Young.
Once again: EVERYONE of that generation checked out Parker.
Here is Wes in full bop mode c1960. How the hell did he play that with his thumb?
Speaking of Jimmy Raney - what an unspeakable badass. Is that not the most relaxed 240bpm? Who can phrase like that at that tempo on guitar? Barry Harris said he 'was the only guy who got close to the things Yard was doing with rhythm on guitar.' And Barry is on that Land date with Wes date. So draw your own conclusions on his opinion....
Myself, I feel Wes is more licky. Great though. A superhero of jazz guitar. Don't make me choose lol.
Adressing rag's point - he might know the Raney Aebersold (there's a study group elsewhere on this) where the lines are written out with beaming across the bar etc. I think Raney supervised that book .... he was really into additive phrasing.
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Filthy modernists!!!!!! Originally Posted by Toddep
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Got it, boss.. sorry, boss... I'll watch it next time.Once again: EVERYONE of that generation checked out Parker.
True.Is that not the most relaxed 240bpm?
But you got what I was talking about when I said that Wes is 'insiduptablly personal'... you know what I mean? It is not about 'being relaxed at fast tempo', or doing 'things that Yard was doing'...
There is something very affirmative in Wes' playing...
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My post was in response to prince and rag not to you.... Didn't disagree with your points, although for me Raney and Wes are absolutely on a par, but I don't have much interest in picking favourites among the players I feel a personal connection to. Originally Posted by Jonah
But - I hope I don't flatter myself when I say Raney is a connoisseur's player while Wes has had a much wider impact and appeal while still undoubtedly being in the pantheon.
Prob why is what you say, Wes has an utterly characteristic SOUND, of course. Raney does too... but you'd have to learn to hear it a little....
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I was kidding a bit... Originally Posted by christianm77
as for Wes... I do not push you for picking of course.
I think he had that special gift... that Rimbrandt or Titian or Handel had...
they had a gift to see (and express) things universally...
ifyou take their contemporaries Vermeer was great, Veronose was great and for example Vivaldi was great but they each represent something like an exquisite branch in a tree... you can enjoy, study it and make it a part of your world.
And with those above: even if they just show a leaf you can see the whole tree with its roots, veins, trunk and branches and crown... it maybe even not that exquisite in realization as with those others but it is very convincing and integral... they just make you a part of their world.
I just think Wes had this thing.
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Raney continues to amaze me. I've learned a bunch of those solos in the Aebersold set, and even when I play them exactly right, at the exact tempo, can keep up with the recording.... there's something in Raney's playing that just feels loose and free and my playing comes off stiff. I also sometimes pause over little phrases of his and think how, never, not in a thousand years, would I have thought to play that. But when he plays it, the phrase seems inevitable. Originally Posted by christianm77
No player has risen my estimation over time more than Raney.
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Raney was something special, for sure. And he kept getting better...his late albums are so good...and by that point his hearing was completely whacked. Remarkable.
Re: characterisics of bebop point 14 and 20.
I think much of this comes from the fact that bebop was born out of late night jam sessions. It was "in the moment" music, and the idea of harmonized melody statements/tight arrangements goes out the window in a jam environment. You listen to the Charlie Christian "first bebop" record (what is it "after hours?" you know the one I'm talking about) and they're playing on the form of some tunes, but never even bothering with melodies...
Bop was about getting to the solos. Jimmy Raney's a great example of this, especially on the old stuff. He'd start blowing at the first B section...
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Thanks, didn't know that. I stumbled on the vid/transcription by accident. Originally Posted by christianm77
Between Wes and Raney I'd have to choose Wes because I think he's the bigger player. But it's a grossly unfair question because we're talking two different styles.
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That's bebop all right! But I dunno, something about the guitar in bebop ensemble... it seems like the least suitable compare to horns and piano as a solo instrument. Anyone notice how the energy level went down when the guitar solo started, or maybe it's just me? Originally Posted by christianm77
Wes played beautifully of course, it's not a question of masterful, he's way ahead of any other gtr (yes, even Jimmy Raney), just how the guitar sound fits. I mean, it's sacrilegious to say here, but I think I prefer my bebop guitarless haha!
Just a thought, don't kill me.
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I know what you mean, but I tend to look at it as the guitar providing some contrast to all the horns etc.
A guitar can never match a badass tenor player such as Johnny Griffin, even Wes couldn’t really do it on ‘Full House’.
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True. WTF am I doing with my life?
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Honestly I've heard very, very few saxophone players that I like listening to for very long. Pretty soon it's honking and squeaking and shakes and such, like a guitarist who falls into bends and endless vibrato. I weary of saxophone playing very quickly. Guitar has such a broader palette of tones and musical possibilities. I didn't feel the energy dropped when Wes played; I think the attention level rose. Something special was happening. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Repent your sins son! For it's not too late to save your soul and become born again Djangologist! Amen! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Noooooooooooooo. Dun-chuck dun-chuck dun-chuck dun-chuck shall be my epitaph... Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
In all seriousness, and in relation to the OP, I reckon the bit I (and other musos) find interesting about modern jazz - the comping, that upbeaty feel etc - is probably what turns non-musicians off. They like something more groove based, defined and repetitive. Like all pop music ever.
I think you DO get that groove feeling a bit with some comping, and people respond to that music in my experience. I'm thinking Wes here, his Charleston thing. People do seem to like a bit of tough sounding Hard Bop, more than wishy washy straightahead, or noodly contemporary. As I've mentioned elsewhere I like my Hank Mobley and Grant Green....
I'd like to have a bit of that attitude in my music without it turning into yet another blue note tribute project or historical recreation.... It's tricky to do... It's really finding out what I like about that music and putting that into my writing...
Thinking about the writing at the moment, lots of tight but not OTT unisons, clear parts, little interludes and outros, crisp rhythm and of course more than a touch of blues. Not complicated music, but considered.
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I actually like the combination of guitar and tenor sax a lot, I think they complement each other well because they are so different.
e.g. Getz and Raney, Pat Martino and Joe Farrell, Jim Hall and Sonny Rollins, Scofield and Joe Henderson, just to name a few favourites. And of course Wes and Griffin.
Having said that, I think two of the greatest jazz gigs I have ever seen were Dexter Gordon and Johnny Griffin, both six feet away from me at Ronnie Scott’s. Absolutely mind-blowing. But especially on the slow ballads, not just the fast stuff.
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Yeah, me too. The recording I'll be doing is with that line up. Sounds FAT on the unisons.
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It's ok, Hell aint bad place to be. Originally Posted by sgcim
You two should be prepared to spend an eternity in Jazz Hell, When you get to St. Peter's Gate, and Jimmy Raney is there waiting for you with Bird at his side, with copies of your posts here in The Book Of Life.
I'll pray for your souls, but I doubt even prayer will help that poor bebop atheist HTTJ.
Christian however has demonstrated a sense of humor that will aid him well with his negotiations at The Gate...
But just in case Im gonna bring my transcriptions of Bird solos i can show at the Gate, they gotta be good for something, no?!
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Man, I'm with you on comping! Thats fun and guitar really works well for that. Im all about rhythm in all genres, id shoot myself if i only had to play lapompe, no no no. Originally Posted by christianm77
I was joking of course, but also my grievances are about guitar as a solo improvising instrument in bebop. The sound of it.
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"Welcome to Hell... here's your accordion." Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Originally Posted by pauln
"Welcome to Hell... here's your accordion."
OK OK!! I'll practice bebop, I'll be good, I promise!! Whatever it takes!
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To me old jazz just had more blood in the vein... it was more about personality and about open expression of 'I am the world!'I think you DO get that groove feeling a bit with some comping, and people respond to that music in my experience. I'm thinking Wes here, his Charleston thing. People do seem to like a bit of tough sounding Hard Bop, more than wishy washy straightahead, or noodly contemporary. As I've mentioned elsewhere I like my Hank Mobley and Grant Green....
for me it is life.
modern is sort of pale, abstract, impersonality becomes gradually a sort of general cultural philosophy... 'it's the world not me'
I recently talked to a guy who exactly loves this stuff - it was shocking how differently we even described thing
I: ' It is hot, warm, colourful, so much personal expression... it is great'.. for me it is like I am the world... and when I listen to a great player this is what I appreciate that he is confident that 'he is the only world there'.
He: 'It is so black and white, cold, and not personal expression just the world... it is great' (Thanks he did not say 'objective world' - I would have killed him)... for him it is like he is IN the world... iand imho it make everything small indifferent and meaningless... but in his opinion it is even good maybe)))
It is a sort of change in general philosiphy - complex process reflected also in music.
But in general I do not mind... what I do not like that it became less demanding to a human being in many aspects...
This philosophy in a way takes away any resposibility from for almost anything you do... including music.
And everything becomes even... pretiness is taken for beauty...
As Brodsky wrote in one of early poems: Death is just planes, and Life is the Hills, the Hills...
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