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This solo by Joe Pass taught me a lot, it’s full of great bebop lines.
Originally Posted by znerken
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11-14-2018 05:22 PM
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Another classic solo on the same tune by Pat Martino. I’m still trying to learn some of these superb lines!
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The next measure is G-7 C7, right? I would think of that Ab diminished chord as a G7b9 so you are not really sitting in F major in that measure. The Gb is a passing tone, and I would have gone with a Bnat myself, to contrast it to the upcoming G-7. Again, you can think of the Bb as a blue note over G7, or an anticipation of G-7. Originally Posted by znerken
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This is the complete score if interested:
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Gb is just a passing note in an F scale line. It's a cliche.
Have you actually tried it with a B natural? Sounds a bit bland, not so bebop. Also more awkward fingering. The Bb is okay, it's a good blue note sound (think Blue Bossa).
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Charlie Parker for Guitar book - all the bebop/blues concepts , lines, ideas, etc etc to keep you entertained for a lifetime
Will
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And talking about Blue Bossa, here's my favorite JGO poster vid of all time*. So when grahambop pronounces on stuff you know he's not all hat and no cattle.
* This okay, Graham? I've done it before. It's the way it continues effortlessly, you see, a veritable tour de force, etc etc :-)
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Ha! Ha! Quote of the day is in your first sentence. Lets me know I am not the only miserable #@#$@!! from time to time. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Anyway, I wonder if the fellow just likes to express himself that way. I have watched hundreds of Youtube Jazz vidoes and every so often, I come across singers who like to sing way out of time. They lag behind the beat, jump ahead, and play with it.
Drives my crazy personally but I guess if it is Jazz, a person ought to have a right to play around going in and out of time. What do you think? (Sorry if I am hijacking the thread)
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Oh, absolutely one of the benefits of living in a free society Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Not sure...but I'm in a great mood tonight and I still think his time feel was bad enough that I'd steer anyone away from learning anything from him.
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Ok by me! Originally Posted by ragman1
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One of my favourites Originally Posted by grahambop
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I think they have a duty to swing it. Billie Holiday swings for instance. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
‘Phrasing behind the beat’ is an effect, not a cause. The rhythm should be accurate, but it doesn’t have to be on the swing 8th note grid. For instance a superimposed 6/8 feel.
There is nothing loose or woolly about good jazz phrasing.
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That's a great idea == if you want to learn some bebop lines, go to the source. Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
Charlie Parker for Guitar book - all the bebop/blues concepts , lines, ideas, etc etc to keep you entertained for a lifetime
Will
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I agree with the posts above that recommend explaining this sort of coloration without scale terminology. I also agree that different people mean different things by the "blues scale," so I pretty much never use the term. I used to think it was just a minor pentatonic with a b5, then I started reading and saw people include the 6th, use major 3rd instead of minor, exclude the 4th, yada yada. Not a useful term, IMO, and does not really get at the highly chromatic (and microtonal) nature of blues, or the essence of blues, which is phrasing not harmony.
I think it's much easier to think about playing actual blues songs or playing in a bluesy fashion over other song forms in terms of "blue notes". Basically, flat 3, flat 5 (sharp 4), and b7, and on instruments that can bend pitches the microtones between these and major 3, perfect 5 and major 7. There's no "theory" in how to play blue notes over non-blues tunes. They're just there and available to be played. It's a color/articulation/feeling you add according to your taste.
You can also think of it in terms of inside vs outside. At any point in a song form, if you know what the inside notes are (chord tones and/or chord/scale of the moment), then you know what notes are not that. Play those (or not), and resolve them to something inside (or not). You don't need to name the outside notes or the blue notes under some other scale rubric. You just need to have some awareness that they're not strictly diatonic to the harmony of the moment, and you have to have sense of taste in how to use them. Spend time playing blues. Develop a vocabulary of blues phrasing. Then carry that over to songs that have room for it (e.g., play a bluesy phrase over a ii V I, or play minor 3rds and/or minor 7ths over Imaj7 IV major changes, etc.). Basically, play BB King solos over everything (within reason). The crowd goes wild, chicks dig it.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 11-15-2018 at 12:13 PM.
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I agree that many blue notes are, technically, outside notes but not all outside notes are necessarily blue notes... if you see what I mean.
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Of course. I was more reasoning by analogy than stating that blues=outside and outside=blues. Originally Posted by ragman1
John
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Maybe this doesn't answer your question, but when I look (hear) at that line, I hear a quick dip into the entire b7dom chord (Eb7).
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Also: for what it's worth, that A-7 is more likely a FMaj7/A (a F major seventh with A in the bass) at least for the head because the melody is the whole note "F" -- that would be tough over a A-7. Originally Posted by znerken
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Great players may stretch the time this way and that.
But, when they do that, the time will always feel good.
The time in that clip does not feel good. I'll leave it at that.
Except to point out that time is of paramount importance. A simple, inside-sounding, line can sound great, if it is played with great time. But, nothing at all will sound good if the time is bad.
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But if I understand everyone here correctly. The timing issue is mostly due to a mistake when he joined the comp and solo together in the recording? The tab itself is totally okay, when it comes to time? That's probably a stupid question, with a self explanatory answer, but it's better to ask...
So if I find great licks in the tab, which I have, and I like the sound of over my backing tracks. They are totally fine, as long as I play them in time?
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Some people have already decided wha they are going to do lol
I was never like that of course :-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I've been working with the tab all week, so I basically started before I posted this thread. And as I've said before, if there was a solo I liked from a very "famous" bebop player on this particular standard, I would've jumped on that. However, there is not too many recordings of this standard... So, I looked elsewhere.
Some people have already decided what the other person is thinking, I was never like that of course
(said with humor, not being rude!)
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Since I was encouraged to post a recording of the song earlier, I recorded a short clip while practicing:
Don't be too harsh on me..
Also, as a beginner I am not entirely sure I hear him being _that_ out of time, and that's probably my ears fault. Could someone help me hear it? Or is just just something that comes with years of experience? After all, when I post a recording here on the forum sometime near in the future, I don't want you all to feel my time is terrible. So I'll take any advice I can get.
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If you're referring to the clip you posted, the soloing is all over the place time-wise, not consistently late/offset. It's strange, because there are good ideas and a good sense of phrasing, so the player seems to know what he's doing. In general, it's difficult to stay completely locked with a backing track or metronome, so I'd leave it at that. The content of what he's playing is worth checking out. Originally Posted by znerken
You want to get a sense of how to play bluesisms over this tune, but with better execution? Here ya go:
John
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