Analyze this Bud Powell (Autumn in New York)

**joe2758** · 11-13-2018, 01:36 PM

whatcha think? no cool-guy answers please (just play man, if it sounds good that’s all that matters, because it’s bud etc”

**Cunamara** · 11-13-2018, 02:26 PM

Can you be more specific as to what you're asking? The first two bars he's playing the chords in his right hand and arpeggiating them in the bass with his left hand.

Or is it that the chords shown don't match those in the Real Book? Or?

**joe2758** · 11-13-2018, 03:16 PM

yeah sorry, I guess I just don't get where the B nat comes from especially since there is a major second in the next chord

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-13-2018, 03:25 PM

Sounds polytonal to me.

**Cunamara** · 11-13-2018, 05:28 PM

Oh, in the Bbmaj7#11, you mean? Yes, that's odd. Reading from the bass notes up: Bb E A B E. I have three thoughts:

1. Transcription error in the notation, not having heard the performance this comes from. But it's a beautiful sound so that's maybe not it. It's dark with a suspended floaty feel; I like it.

However the chord name they gave it overlooks what is arguably a b5 (the lower E) rather than a #11. My guess is that Bud flatted the 5th to reduce the rub with the #11 and emphasize the Bb bass to the B b9 interval, although I like it even better with the natural 5th (Bb F A B E). He also omitted the 3rd of the Bb and the subsequent Gb chords, to me again suggesting he was featuring the b9 very deliberately.

I'd call it a Bbmaj7b5#11, but maybe I am just being pedantic and redundant; it could also be a Asus2/Bb (interestingly the top 4 notes of the chord are also the first few melody notes in "Icarus" by Ralph Towner, which may be purely coincidental).

2. What I think it the likeliest explanation: the B natural is functioning as a b9 within the concept of the #11 altered chord.

As you know, on guitar we often omit certain notes in altered chords because it is difficult or even impossible to finger the chord grip, but pianists often include them because they can. The b9 really darkens the chord. This one can be approximated on guitar: 6 7 7 4 5 x using the thumb to fret the Bb on the low E string. Then compare it to the chord with the unaltered 9th: 6 7 7 5 5 x which sounds dramatically lighter to my ears. So my guess is that Bud wanted that dark tonality, since he does it again in the next bar.

3. Bud's thinking about those chords included the line played in the bass.

The next chord is interesting, too. It's named a Gbmaj7#11 but it has a D natural notated on the treble clef, which makes it a Gbmaj7#5#11.

**rintincop** · 11-13-2018, 07:57 PM

Bb Lydian b9, It's like a phrygian sound, sounds fine. And yes, it's not pure phrygian.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-13-2018, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by rintincop

Bb Lydian b9, It's like a phrygian sound, sounds fine. And yes, it's not pure phrygian.

The bass line has a Cnat.

**rintincop** · 11-14-2018, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

The bass line has a C nat.

Yes it does. So?
It occurs as part of a line well past the flat 9.

**Jonah** · 11-14-2018, 04:36 AM

I never analyzed Bud's playing but by ear he often sounds to me like a few different harmonic structures move in various directions simultaneously... especially when he plays alone, I remember that 'Stella By Starlight' record that I heard it.

It sounds - not sure about plytonal - but I would say it has strange multidimensional effect, as if you espect to see the pictunre in 2D and sundely see a 3D

**Jonah** · 11-14-2018, 04:54 AM

it is there on record... first I thought about just dark 'dissonant cluster effect'

But now it sounds more like a deliberate b9... also I hear sort of connection between that Bnat and C of the next chord .. they go oppsite direction then basses and other voices that's probably also why it is heard better.

Also I would not anaylze these two chords separately(through differen chord scales or whatever) ..

they belong to the same sound to my ear...

Crazy record by the way

**Vladan** · 11-14-2018, 09:55 AM

I think he is after atmosphere, ... autumn, rain, depression ...
It is more "sound on sound", than it is harmony.

Original goes Gm Am.
Can be understood as parallel motion, step up.

Changed to Bb Gb
Parallel motion, 2 steps down.
Both quality and direction of movement are reversed from original.
Connection to original chords is in roots being minor 3rd away, in opposite directions.
Substituted/ extended to make it sound more acceptable.

Note B could come from E(7, b9,11), because BbMaj7#11 is like E7/ Bb and Bb to E is tritone away.

**Jonah** · 11-14-2018, 10:06 AM

I think he is after atmosphere, ... autumn, rain, depression ...
It is more "sound on sound", than it is harmony.

I thought so too first.. but then I felt like it was too much consistency in it to be just a sonoric effect.. though of course it is the part of it anyway... the character.

THere is no 'just harmony' after all - it is alwasys about something.

**christianm77** · 11-14-2018, 10:17 AM

I think the music editor sort of gave up with the chord symbols as his puny brain imploded.

(However my puny brain also implodes when trying to describe this intro theoretically. It's pretty cool.)

**joe2758** · 11-14-2018, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I think the music editor sort of gave up with the chord symbols as his puny brain imploded.

(However my puny brain also implodes when trying to describe this intro theoretically. It's pretty cool.)

I thought maybe it was from the C7b5 dim scale, but the A nat threw that off. But still I wonder. That's the best I've come up with

**don_oz** · 11-14-2018, 11:09 AM

Is there a recording we could hear?

**don_oz** · 11-14-2018, 11:13 AM

Bud Powell - Autumn in New York - YouTube

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-14-2018, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by rintincop

Yes it does. So?
It occurs as part of a line well past the flat 9.

I'm suggesting it's not as simple as "scale X".

**Jonah** · 11-14-2018, 11:32 AM

I would not get into scales at all here...

It really sounds like b9 vertically
And horizontally it is going to C ... you can hear it in the record

**don_oz** · 11-14-2018, 11:37 AM

Well, if you look at the key signature, it's in F, like the original. So Bb is chord IV and Gb is tritone of V so he's going between IV and V. The transcriber put Gb major but there's a D natural? I don't have perfect pitch so I can't tell with just listening to the recording.

I guess you can say Bb and Gb are from the same diminished scale, and the notes in the chords could be bored from the diminished scale?

The scale:
Gb, G, A, Bb, C, Db, Eb, E.

Or you could say the Bb and Gb are from two different diminished scales.

And he's borrowing notes from the scales?

G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, D, E, F

Gb, Ab, A, B, C, D, Eb, F

Or because both diminished scales have similar notes, he's borrowing from both scales.

This was my train of thought on this.

**don_oz** · 11-14-2018, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I would not get into scales at all here...

It really sounds like b9 vertically
And horizontally it is going to C ... you can hear it in the record

I can hear what you're talking about
So like C713b9 to F major6?

**Jonah** · 11-14-2018, 02:27 PM

I can hear what you're talking about
So like C713b9 to F major6?

When you sit at a piano (like I do now) left and right hands clearly make two different harmonic lines: one is natural and the other one is more like flattened.

Left hand has just two arpegiated triads add 2 Bb and Gb with chromatic lead tones to chord tones .

And right hand is completely built on these lead tones and add2s from the left hand chords....

They make kind of suspension one to another... and due to different texture they are clearly separated

**Cunamara** · 11-14-2018, 03:30 PM

And just stop for a moment to ponder the musical skills and ears that Bud Powell possessed to be able to generate this. Amazing. This encapsulates an awful lot of what top-level jazz harmonic thinking is in just two bars. Ed Bickert's chords do stuff like this too. You can squeeze the juice out of these for weeks.

One can think of Bud's chords as subs plus tensions for the chords one finds in the Real Book and elsewhere. Bbmaj7 is an easy sub for Gmin7, it's a direct relative major substitution. Gbmaj7 is maybe a less simple sub for Amin7 (Amin7 -> Cma7 for a relative major substitution, then a tritone substitution for Cma7 leading to the Gb chord- but with the large rather than small 7 which is located in the left hand line rather than the right hand chord).

**grahambop** · 11-14-2018, 05:48 PM

I think Bud just liked using unusual chords sometimes, as here.

**don_oz** · 11-14-2018, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I think Bud just liked using unusual chords sometimes, as here.

I'm glad someone posted that tune, it's clearly for classical influence, which I think had a clear influence on his recording of autumn in New York too.