Question about modal interchange/borrowing

[Reflex]

Hi all,

I have some questions from a songwriting perspective, not performance.

I understand modes and what they are for and how they are built but still have some blocks in understanding clearly.

I often see examples or videos about Modal Borrowing that say for example, "this song is written or sounds like for example, D Dorian"

Then for that D Dorian examples you may see chords analyzed like: bVIMaj7, bVII7Maj7 im7

1. Please refresh me, why is there a flat?? What does the flat allude to?

2. Would bVIMaj7 be considered as borrowed from Aeolian?

3. Next, another example....if a song is supposed to have been written in A Aeolian.....and there is a bIIImaj7 and a bVII7....why is there a flat here?? Its an A natural minor scale! And why is it not simply called A Natural Minor? (yes, same thing, but lots of examples out there call it A Aeolian)

I do feel like I need to get this theory in my brain bc it helps when writing tunes.

Thank you!

Seb

[pauln]

I think the convention is to use flats exclusively in the Roman numeral system. I guess the reasons are that the system is meant to be invariant across all key signatures (same schema for a progression may be used for any key) and altering the accidentals to include sharps to align correctly with each different key would break the uniformity of the schema across keys.

You do raise an important point because I see lots of chord names extracted from a Roman numeral progression schema where the flat accidentals are conserved even when the key of the song is a sharp key. Once a progression is lifted from the number system and mapped to a particular key, the enharmonic elements must be distinguished and labeled properly for the key signature.

The "flats only" nomenclature also seems to be a common jazz guitarist idiom on the band stand.

[M-ster]

Regarding OP's question 1: The flats are used to indicate a variance from what might be expected in a major scale. I.e., relative to a C tonic, III (with no flat) indicates an E chord of some type, while bIII suggests an Eb chord of some type.

Regarding question 2: If you're in a Dorian model tonality, a bVI chord would be a change of mode.

[christianm77]

Hi all,

I have some questions from a songwriting perspective, not performance.

I understand modes and what they are for and how they are built but still have some blocks in understanding clearly.

I often see examples or videos about Modal Borrowing that say for example, "this song is written or sounds like for example, D Dorian"

Then for that D Dorian examples you may see chords analyzed like: bVIMaj7, bVII7Maj7 im7

1. Please refresh me, why is there a flat?? What does the flat allude to?

2. Would bVIMaj7 be considered as borrowed from Aeolian?

3. Next, another example....if a song is supposed to have been written in A Aeolian.....and there is a bIIImaj7 and a bVII7....why is there a flat here?? Its an A natural minor scale! And why is it not simply called A Natural Minor? (yes, same thing, but lots of examples out there call it A Aeolian)

I do feel like I need to get this theory in my brain bc it helps when writing tunes.

Thank you!

Seb

Just my raw take from the OP - if I repeat what others have said, that's a GOOD thing...

1. We compare any given scale or mode to the Ionian mode/major scale. Therefore, Mixolydian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7, Lydian is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 and so on. Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7.

So bVIImaj7 means - the VII is a half step flat compared to the major scale, so Bb in C, for instance, and then we build a major seventh chord on it.

2. Yes. I prefer 'parallel natural minor' which is more old school, but same thing. Minor borrowings in a major key have been the most common modal interchange for a few hundred years. It's the origin of altered dominants, minor plagals etc.

3. We still compare A Aeolian to the A Major. It actually makes it easier because few tunes stick in one mode all the time, so we can use the flats and sharps as required and not need to know what mode the tune is in. For instance, Just Friends:

Cmaj7 | % | Cm7 | F7 |
Gmaj9 | % | Bbm7 | Eb7 |

The key of the tune is G major, but we have modal borrowings from G aeolian and G locrian (if you like) so,

IVmaj7 | % | IVm7 | bVII7 |
Imaj9 | % | bIIIm7 | bVI7 |

[christianm77]

And there, in that one short phrase, is why people have nightmares over this stuff.

So, dear Reflex, when you see D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian, don't think D major, G major and C major, just think C major. I promise your life will be easier.

Obviously if you have a tune that uses D dorian chords in the key of D major, you'll be thinking in D. So Cmaj7 in the key of D, of example, is bVIIM7.

Sure that's what you meant, just want to clarify.

[Reflex]

Now.....heres an interesting follow up.....from a composition perspective which may involve practicing on the instrument....I want to ear train myself to know a lot of modal borrowing possibilities.
I have found charts that organize modal borrowed chords for you..... but that doesnt translate to my hands and ears.
How do you suggest I go about this?

[Reflex]

Any hacks on learning these quicker?

Or just practice them to death for months.

[bako]

For ear purposes while playing, I would limit myself to examining the progressional interaction
between 2 modes at a time. For starters major and the parallel minor (aeolian or harmonic minor)

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't recall encountering the term "modal interchange" or "borrowed from X" until fairly recently.

I dimly understand the concept, but so far, I have only encountered it as an after the fact "explanation" of why something works.

Here's an illustration of what I'm addressing. Suppose we borrow a chord from the parallel minor, or something -- and it sounds good. But, apparently, not every chord borrowed from the parallel minor will sound good. So, simply knowing you can borrow chords from the parallel minor doesn't really tell you all that much. I may, of course, be missing something, but where is the predictive value?

Maybe it will give you an avenue to explore to find chords that might sound good, but there are plenty of ways of doing that.

Back in the day, it was all subsumed under the heading of "chord substitution". There were some principles, like tritone sub, and a lot of practice from learning tunes that contained them (often by composers who never heard the term "modal interchange".)

If I'm missing the point, I hope someone will enlighten me.

[christianm77]

Modal interchange is a classical music term originally IIRC

A little historical perspective here.
Borrowed chord - Wikipedia

Cole Porter

[christianm77]

Interestingly, that article doesn't mention the Neapolitan 6th, which I would think of as a borrowed chord of the Phrygian. (bII or more usually bII/IV) but maybe classical theorists don't like that understanding.

[christianm77]

Some common borrowed chords in standards

in major

Aeolian
IVm7
bVII7
IIm7b5

Harmonic Minor
V7b13b9
VIIo7

Dorian
IV7

Phrygian
bIImaj7(#11)

Locrian
bIIIm7
bVI7

Lydian/Relative minor Dorian/Melodic Minor
#IVm7b5
IVm6 or VI6(maj7)
II7 or II7#11

IV Melodic Minor
IVm6(maj7)
bVII7#11

TBH this is not the way I view these chords, but it's one way to look at them.

[rpjazzguitar]

I read the article, thanks.

I'm still trying to understand the advantage to thinking this way, for the jazz player.

Some of the possible borrowed chords work, some don't, and the theory doesn't seem to tell you which is which.

I don't yet see how the theory predicts anything useful.

Or stated another way, what goal does this theory help you achieve in actual playing?

[christianm77]

Well over the minor chords you play minor tunes and over the major chords you play major tunes

[pauln]

D dorian is the second degree mode of C major BUT it's written as the formula 12b3456b7 which is what happens when the D major scale is adjusted. Why does it look like C major when it's an adjusted D major? Why is it formulated as an adjusted D major at all?

Because it is critical to hear it as D Dorian rather than C major... the composer, the performer, and the audience all need to hear it as Dorian, even if none of them know that name.

I've been banging on about all this for years. It would be far simpler if the modes were named after the scales they represent. So D dorian should really be C dorian. 'Dorian' = 2nd degree, so it's C major from D to D.

D Dorian sounds different from C major played D to D... the scale being represented is a D scale with a D tonic.

[Reg]

So Reflex... M-ster was in jazz common practice understandings direction.

Borrowing is.... having a musically organized process of having access to chords from using Relative and Parallel relationships. Borrowing doesn't use modal organization... Borrowing uses One Mode... Maj, Ionian functional organization.

The Basic Reference... Major... Ionian

Cmaj7....Dmin7.....Emin7.....Fmaj7....G7....Amin7. .....B-7b5
Imaj7.....IImi7......IIImi7......IVma7....V7....VI mi7..... VII-7b5


These are Borrowed Chords*

The relative Minor relationship..................Amin7....B-7b5.....Cmaj7....Dmin7.....Emin7....Fmaj7......G7
.................................................. ........Imin7.....II-7b5...bIIIma7...IVmin7....Vmin7...bVIma7...bVII7

The Parallel Relationship*

Cmin7....D-7.....Ebma7....Fmin7....Gmin7....Abmaj7....Bb-7b5
Imin7....IImin7..bIIIma7...IVmin7...Vmin7...bVIma7 ....bVII-7b5

Typically when traditional music uses Borrowed chords from Relative and Parallel relationships they use Harmonic Minor so the V chords become a Dominant chord...V7, instead of Vmin7, to help keep the traditional functional harmonic movement... so there is a tritone to resolve back to the tonic....

Jazz Common practice on the other hand Also uses basic Borrowing Concepts, But they use Modal Concepts which could be called Modal Borrowing.... But that is different from Modal Interchange. Again Borrowing uses the functional organization of IONIAN or Major.

But... really both approaches are somewhat combined and used independent or how ever one chooses...It get a little muddy...
Modal Borrowing can be just using the parallel and relative approach... but expanding each to using any mode. Cmaj Ionian becomes Cmaj Lydian or Cmin Phrygian or C Mixolydian.... you end up with new Diatonic chords... depending on what mode you use with Parallel or relative concept.

Modal interchange uses the concept of using Modal qualities... or Modal Functional Organization... This organization is basically how notes react to other notes...(just like major/minor functional music, Ionian).... but when you use modal organization the note(s) which control the movement, or Function.... Change depending on the Mode and can also be "Expanded", using the basic concept of different organizations for controlling Harmonic movement.

The most common modal common practice is using Characteristic pitches which are different with each mode to control the functional movement.... or when you "Expand" the concept for controlling harmonic movement.

The result is you have more borrowed chords... and the chord movement can have different guidelines.

It's somewhat like learning a Cmaj scale.... there is much more than just playing the notes.... And when playing jazz... there are many harmonic organizations going on simultaneously... It's not Black or Black and White.... it can be but there are many colors. Maybe not good analogy. Anyway... feel free to ask anything.... There are many ways to look at the concepts depending on what you use as your starting reference.... But it's not Vanilla.

I tend to look and hear Augmented 6th chords..simple Chromatic chords...

In jazz we usually just call it a tri-tone sub,
Classically name refers to Chords containing,

Root, Maj3rd and Aug 6th... (aug 6th is b7 in jazz)

Names refer to what extra note is added,
German....P 5th
French...Aug 4th
Italian.....No 5th or 4th, usually 3rd is doubled

[fep]

Songwriting...

Take C major

C Dm Em F G (or G7) Am Bdim

Maybe you're looking for some more chords to add color.

Parallel minor (Aeolian)

Cm Dmb5 Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb

Now you have more chords to work with.

Another trick is to change the quality of the chord you are using for a tune.

For example you've got C to F to Bb C (modal interchange already). Maybe you try changing the chord qualities, C Fm7 Bb9 C. This gives you a lot more songwriting choices/ideas.

You can also search out other modes or closely related keys. And if you get fluent you can just hear these relationships/chords and not worry about theory. For example, the IV to iv in a major key is very common and you might already hear that.

[rpjazzguitar]

Songwriting...

Take C major

C Dm Em F G (or G7) Am Bdim

Maybe you're looking for some more chords to add color.

Parallel minor (Aeolian)

Cm Dmb5 Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb

Now you have more chords to work with.

Another trick is to change the quality of the chord you are using for a tune.

For example you've got C to F to Bb C (modal interchange already). Maybe you try changing the chord qualities, C Fm7 Bb9 C. This gives you a lot more songwriting choices/ideas.

You can also search out other modes or closely related keys. And if you get fluent you can just hear these relationships/chords and not worry about theory. For example, the IV to iv in a major key is very common and you might already hear that.

Thanks for this. It makes some sense ... but I'm still trying to figure out how to apply it.

So, I picked a simple tune and I tried to figure out how to use it.

Take All of Me. Cmaj7 E7 A7 Dm7, that's the first 8 bars.

So, if I understand this at all, and cribbing from your example, I can use the first chord as is and then go to the parallel minor, Cm, for the second chord. The iii chord is then Eb - which doesn't work. Neither will the vi chord as a sub for A7.

Is it only for songwriting?

How do I apply "modal interchange" to All of Me?

[christianm77]

Probably a bad example as the melody outlines the harmony so explicitly.

[rpjazzguitar]

Probably a bad example as the melody outlines the harmony so explicitly.

Okay. So, the theory makes suggestions that don't necessarily work. Or do I misunderstand?

Which tune and which chords would be a better example?

[christianm77]

An excellent example of a tune that has an essentially diatonic melody but features modal interchange would be Beatrice.

In terms of using modal interchange for reharmonisation, it's best if you have a melody that fill in too much harmony but has long notes....

A classic and well known example is replacing the last chord of a tune - this works for All of Me, or most standards that finish on the 1 degree of the key. The most common chord is bIImaj7, but bVImaj is also common.

Obviously the classic ending, minor instead of major, is a very simple example of modal interchange.

[John A.]

An excellent example of a tune that has an essentially diatonic melody but features modal interchange would be Beatrice.

In terms of using modal interchange for reharmonisation, it's best if you have a melody that fill in too much harmony but has long notes....

A classic and well known example is replacing the last chord of a tune - this works for All of Me, or most standards that finish on the 1 degree of the key. The most common chord is bIImaj7, but bVImaj is also common.

Obviously the classic ending, minor instead of major, is a very simple example of modal interchange.

I don't think I ever heard the term "moral interchange" before I saw it on forum, so never really thought about these sorts of subs as borrowing from something related. I just thought about them as "a cool way to do something unexpected." Another good one is ending on bIV min (7 or 6). Pat Martino ends Days of Wine and Roses (on Exit), and I steal from it all the time.

John

[rpjazzguitar]

An excellent example of a tune that has an essentially diatonic melody but features modal interchange would be Beatrice.

In terms of using modal interchange for reharmonisation, it's best if you have a melody that fill in too much harmony but has long notes....

A classic and well known example is replacing the last chord of a tune - this works for All of Me, or most standards that finish on the 1 degree of the key. The most common chord is bIImaj7, but bVImaj is also common.

Obviously the classic ending, minor instead of major, is a very simple example of modal interchange.

So, in C, it's common to end on a Dbmaj7 with the C as the top note, especially if C is the melody. This is a cliche (although I still like it).

So, is that the II chord in C phrygian? Is that the theory behind it?

Similarly, if you end on an Abmaj7 it's the VI chord in C phrygian?

Is that how it works?

If I've got that much right, I've still got a question. There are 6 modes of Cmajor, not counting C Ionian.

And, each one of the parallel modes, eg. C dorian, C phrygian, C lydian etc. generates 7 chords, with some duplication.

Does the theory tell you which of those 30 or 40 chords is going to work in a given situation?

Or, do you have to first find something that works and then figure out what the modal interchange was?
And, if you did that, how would knowing the specifics of the modal interchange be any more effective than another other way of remembering the application?

That is, why would it be better to remember "second mode of C phrygian" than to remember, "major seventh a half step up". Seems to me that the latter tells me exactly what do and what sound to expect, since I already know what "half step up" sounds like. Whereas the "second mode of C phrygian" requires that I learn what seems be some arcane language to describe the same thing.

Again, what am I missing?

Beatrice -- great tune. Might someone be willing to walk me through the reasoning regarding how modal interchange is applied to this tune?

[Reg]

Rpjazz.... theory of modal interchange doesn't tell you what to do... it gives you a physical musically organized approach for possible organizations of chord movement... using modal concepts with basic music functional organization. Which could be expanded to melodic organization etc..

It's... not that complicated, you get the part..."interchange", right. "to cause one thing to change places with another"

The twins interchanged clothes frequently...

You understand Modal.... A Tonal System...based on a pitch, with functional organization. If you don't get the functional organization part... you get get the part about a pitch or note ... with a related scale... that would be the notes.

Interchange "C" Mixolydian for "C" Ionian

So in All Of Me.. 1st two bars.... Modal Interchange C Mixolydian for C Ionian

So now the tonal organization for bars 1 ans 2 is C mixo. instead of "C" Ionian. Not that much of a difference... but if you were playing chord patterns or soloing there would be a difference... "Bb" for sure and when you start creating relationships... with that Cmixo... there are different results. there are many possibilities. Who cares.

Now Modal interchange "D"Dorian for that "C Ionian...more of a difference... would need to adjust melody etc...

Now you could keep the general Harmonic organization.... how chords move, how notes resolve etc... how you hear and understand music... what you probably think is right and sound good etc... anyway keep that the same... which is based on organization and guidelines of "Ionian". Or you could change the organization... generally that is harmonic organization, which is what makes voice leading etc... note resolutions and chord movement .... anyway if your one of those melody is king guys all the melodic rules etc... are based on Ionian guidelines.

So you could just use the modal Organization for the 1st two bars.... that would be.... the 1st two bars would be harmonically (and melodically if your a note person), organized with.... Say that "D" Dorian. Modal organization can be just different guidelines for movement.... notes, chords from which notes and chords control the chord movement... Function.

This gets more complicated.... not really, but we're just trying to understand what Modal Interchange is.... simple version.

And keep rest of tune the same... that would be your choice etc...

So just like most of us understand what a scale is... or arpeggio is, what a V7 chord is... now we know what Modal Interchange is.... The "interchanging" of different "modal" organization on a target... a pitch or chord, a phrase, etc...

And just like scales, arpeggios, chords etc... are simple.... how we use them gets complicated.

[rpjazzguitar]

Rpjazz....

Interchange "C" Mixolydian for "C" Ionian

So in All Of Me.. 1st two bars.... Modal Interchange C Mixolydian for C Ionian

So now the tonal organization for bars 1 ans 2 is C mixo. instead of "C" Ionian. Not that much of a difference... but if you were playing chord patterns or soloing there would be a difference... "Bb" for sure and when you start creating relationships... with that Cmixo... there are different results. there are many possibilities. Who cares.

Now Modal interchange "D"Dorian for that "C Ionian...more of a difference... would need to adjust melody etc....

Let me see if I can understand just this much.

Is the following correct?

If you were soloing (comping too?) on the first two bars of All of Me, you might change Cmajor to C7. Then, you'd draw on the chords that go with C Mixo, aka the chords of F Ionian.

Or, if you went with C Dorian, you'd be flatting the E and B and playing the chords of Bb Ionian?

Is that much correct?