Cadences (iii VI ii V, backdoor cadences, sub7) - Good RESOURCE?

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 09:55 AM

Just another little organizational project - sometimes these threads go a little off the rails so if you want to know the reasoning behind the question, feel free to ask, but I've found these things can get chaotic if people make assumptions about the intent of the question...so...putting aside any assumptions...

Does anyone know of a good book or resource (website, video, etc) that simply lists tons of common harmonic moves/cadences that you'll see in jazz standards, real book stuff? I list a few examples below.

I actually don't need accompanying explanations (though that does no harm) but more so just curious of a list or if any book or anything has ever tried to catalogue.

Was curious if "Hearing the Changes" by Jerry Koker does this at all.

Again it's super-duper appreciated if the only responses here are ones answering the question asked - I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but I'm really not asking for advice on whether this is a good question or not, or whether I should be asking a different question, nor anybody's personal opinions/preferences on different cadences, etc etc - hope you get my drift.

Thank you in advance.

A few examples, ways to get to C:

Dm7 G7 C

Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 C

E7 A7 D7 G7 C

Abmaj7 Dbmaj7 C

Fm7 Bb7 C

Fmaj7 Bb7 C

Dm7 Db7 C

Em7 Eb7 Dm7 Db7 C

E7 Eb7 D7 Db7 C

Ebm7 Ab7 Dm7 G7 C

Em7 D#dim7 Dm7 G7 C

B7 C

F#m7 B7 C

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 10:18 AM

Ah you see this is a classic example of a thread where I think the best response is - look at more tunes and draw your own conclusions.

Having a book or a list might seem like a shortcut, but actually learning tunes and working out this stuff using your Branez is a far more efficient use of your time because you’ll end up understanding it deeper and also knowing lots of tunes.

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 10:19 AM

Sorry if that seems dismissive or rude but it’s not meant to be and is honestly my best advice.

**joe2758** · 10-01-2018, 10:20 AM

personally, i would have asked a different question.

**A. Kingstone** · 10-01-2018, 10:28 AM

Hearing The Changes lists some indeed but I like your list. You are already sorting it out. Write the book and we'll buy it!

If memory serves I think Ralph Patt (Vanilla Changes) may have something online like this.

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ah you see this is a classic example of a thread where I think the best response is - look at more tunes and draw your own conclusions.

Having a book or a list might seem like a shortcut, but actually learning tunes and working out this stuff using your Branez is a far more efficient use of your time because you’ll end up understanding it deeper and also knowing lots of tunes.

Originally Posted by christianm77

Sorry if that seems dismissive or rude but it’s not meant to be and is honestly my best advice.

Hey Christian, your advice would be great for a difference scenario/person, but you're making huge assumptions about the purpose of my question.

Gotta say - a little frustrating because I tried to address this in the first sentence of the post and doubled down on it later just to avoid this kind of thing.

Would really appreciate it if any responses from here on out are just answering if they know of a resource for what I describe. Please don't make assumptions about the intent of the question, it will just result in off topic answers and discussions.

If anybody is dying to know why I'm asking, feel free to ask and I'll try to explain later, but otherwise...please...no off the rails off topic misunderstandings here...please?

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by joe2758

personally, i would have asked a different question.

Joe, you get me

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

Hearing The Changes lists some indeed but I like your list. You are already sorting it out. Write the book and we'll buy it!

If memory serves I think Ralph Patt (Vanilla Changes) may have something online like this.

Oh cool thanks! Well check out.

Yes I have quite a list going already...

Trying to organize it into one chord 'moves' then two chords, etc. To major tonic, to minor tonic, to non-tonic (e.g. diminished seventh from a half step above often approaches ii or iii, but not I)

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 10:31 AM

Towards that aim I would probably suggest Ralph Patts Vanilla Book which may have a list of progressions as well as tunes - can’t remember.

I have Harmony with Lego Bricks and Coker’s heading the changes which are the closest things I can think of to what you’re taking about, but I basically don’t use either of them so I can’t really recommend. The concept is totally sound, but I think they are a bit of a distraction actually.

The names are of less utility than you might think. Esp of the other musicians haven’t read the same books.

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 10:33 AM

So I think what I’m trying to say is that there is no standardised naming system in use. Categories vary from person to person too a little.

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

So I think what I’m trying to say is that there is no standardised naming system in use. Categories vary from person to person too a little.

Yes - names aren't important, so that's ok. Just seeing the harmony (chords/roman numerals etc) is fine. Thanks

**jayv999** · 10-01-2018, 11:56 AM

Have you poked around at the TedGreene.com site? Especially check out the "Harmony & Theory" section under the Guitar Lessons area.
Here's a couple that might be helpful:
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1973-10-22.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...sions_1986.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...4-08-04_31.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1979-09-14.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...terns_1975.pdf

and so forth.....

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by jayv999

Have you poked around at the TedGreene.com site? Especially check out the "Harmony & Theory" section under the Guitar Lessons area.
Here's a couple that might be helpful:
http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1973-10-22.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...sions_1986.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...4-08-04_31.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...1979-09-14.pdf

http://www.tedgreene.com/images/less...terns_1975.pdf

and so forth.....

hey very cool stuff Jay, thank you, will poke around!

**JohnoL** · 10-01-2018, 12:09 PM

Not necessarily "harmonic moves/cadences" but common progressions:

Improvising Jazz by Jerry Coker appendix D.

Jazz Theory Resources Volume 1 Bert Ligon has a good progressions section.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 10-01-2018, 12:19 PM

Hearing the Changes is probably about the best for this. More than just a list, it's sorted by most common usages, with extensive tune lists for each chord pattern.

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Yes - names aren't important, so that's ok. Just seeing the harmony (chords/roman numerals etc) is fine. Thanks

What’s the list for?

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Hearing the Changes is probably about the best for this. More than just a list, it's sorted by most common usages, with extensive tune lists for each chord pattern.

Yeah part of my response to this sort of thing was I actually started writing a big list and kind of ended looking at it and going - well that’s a big list and it makes my eyes bleed. It really didn’t help to systematise the knowledge in that way.

I think the Coker book is good, but by the time I got it I already knew all the stuff he was talking about from playing tunes. So I’ve never used it as a learning tool, more as confirmation I was on the right track.

The sensible organisation of the list is the tricky bit.... but then the organisation of the list is kind of the repertoire.

I think a small list of about 6 entries might be worthwhile. Depending on the day of the week I might think there’s only 6. If you approach harmony in a very chunked way it makes sense, but to be honest you have to know how to chunk harmony down and that’s another list.

Some sort of hierarchical structure maybe? It’s funny that things that seem clear in ones head become really not clear at all when written down.

So I trust in the process instead.

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I think a small list of about 6 entries might be worthwhile.

I think 'worthwhile' is just relative to what the goal is and other aspects of the specific context. Will re: other question later

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by JohnoL

Not necessarily "harmonic moves/cadences" but common progressions:

Improvising Jazz by Jerry Coker appendix D.

Jazz Theory Resources Volume 1 Bert Ligon has a good progressions section.

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Hearing the Changes is probably about the best for this. More than just a list, it's sorted by most common usages, with extensive tune lists for each chord pattern.

Great, thanks John and Matt!

**christianm77** · 10-01-2018, 12:47 PM

Don't forget Harmony with Lego Bricks.

There's also a list made by Pete Churchill, London jazz prof, which is apparently one size of A4. Sounds like what you are looking for but I don't think it's on the web.

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Don't forget Harmony with Lego Bricks.

There's also a list made by Pete Churchill, London jazz prof, which is apparently one size of A4. Sounds like what you are looking for but I don't think it's on the web.

Yes thank you - I came across the Lego Bricks book - can anybody confirm if it has what I'm after here?

----

Also I should clarify I already have a list of a few hundred of these going, was planning to categorize them a bit by how common they are and how munch they depend on certain context, that kind of thing.

In part I was interested in seeing there were common things I may have missed, but also seeing how different authors presented the same concepts.

For example, for the Ted Greene one it was interesting that he listed a chord and then what might follow the chord. I'm organizing mine with the idea of a chord and what might commonly precede the chord.

**mhch** · 10-01-2018, 01:15 PM

Harmony with Lego Bricks enumerates and describes tune building blocks .. There is a google group named LEGO-bricks about it.

John Elliot's Book "Insight in Jazz" discusses these topics and contains references to all related books. For more information www.dropback.co.uk

**joe2758** · 10-01-2018, 01:16 PM

could you categorize them by destination? turnaround to 1, turnaround to 2, major up to its' 3rd, major up to a chord on it's minor 3rd etc?

**JakeAcci** · 10-01-2018, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by mhch

Harmony with Lego Bricks enumerates and describes tune building blocks .. There is a google group named LEGO-bricks about it.

John Elliot's Book "Insight in Jazz" discusses these topics and contains references to all related books. For more information www.dropback.co.uk

great, thanks!

Originally Posted by joe2758

could you categorize them by destination? turnaround to 1, turnaround to 2, major up to its' 3rd, major up to a chord on it's minor 3rd etc?

Yes this is similar to what I'm thinking but seems depending on context there can be overkill vs oversimplification

For example, many moves that can go to I can also go to IV. So I'm trying to keep it simple to start by saying X will "get you there" and writing in an extra note that for things that are really only common if going to I, or only common when going to ii in a major key, that kind of thing.