-
The "Insight in Jazz" Book does consider the context, which is likely what you mean by turnaround to I or IV or ..
-
10-01-2018 01:39 PM
-
Marc Sabatella, The Harmonic Language of Jazz Standards, examines common cadences. Ralph Patt’s analysis of progressions linked to their occurrence in tunes is really useful. In terms of organizing these the most productive approach I know is asking how to get to a destination chord: how can I get to IVm, for example, then how do I get to each of the chords that lead to IVm, etc. As Christian seems to suggest there is a relatively small number of binary pairs that can be linked into a very large number of longer chains. And then apart from the dynamic moving harmony of resolution to a destination there is also the static harmony of running in place, e.g. iii-vi-ii-V-I, which can be broken down in similar ways.
-
Yeah it has a section much like you describe.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
-
Cool guys, all great stuff, thank you!
You know, I realize it probably would have been useful to include that part of the motivation/intention behind this is for reharmonizations, and starting by looking at 'classic' moves.
So that is, if I have a melody and know I want to end up on X chord, cool to have a list to reference to try different possibilities and see how they could match up with the melody.
I do a fair amount of reharmonizing but have never actually gotten a book on reharmonization, maybe that should be remedied.
-
I like the prioritization to how common they are, but really the tune list is just as helpful. If you have a peculiar modulation you're trying to learn to hear better, it's cool to have three or four other tunes that have the same modulation. Originally Posted by christianm77
Little different from learning them as they come, in learning tunes one at a time.
-
I must check out that book. Originally Posted by pcjazz
Actually I'm suggesting the total number of chains are less than it might appear.
For instance:
Bb Bo7 | Cm7 Dbo7 | Bb/D
Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb
Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb
Bb Bb7 | Eb Ebm6 | Bb
Dm7 D7 | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F etc
Dm7 Dbm7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb
There are literally 100s of variations on these basic turnarounds. This is where listing them gets a bit LOOOOONNNGGG... And I'm not sure shorter sequences really tell you that much? When soloing I'm thinking on this kind of 2 bar scale if not longer.
Anyway they are all functionally equivalent, if you view what happens on the backside of the bar as a passing (or weak) chord, so from the point of view of soloing can all be subbed for each other.
Think of all the variants of Rhythm Changes A sections from the original, to Christopher Columbus, to Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered/Serpents Tooth, to Ain't Misbehaving, Swing 42, modern standard changes etc etc - it's never ending ... but they all do the same job.... which is to go around and around in a nice way.
Tonic --> Subdominant --> Tonic
Of course - they are in fact different, but what is different is generally the bass line, voice leading and so on, so for some people they might not equivalent at all... YMMV. This is kind of the problem with these lists, it kind of varies from person to person.
Perhaps F7 is a different thing to you than Eo7, for instance, so then your understanding changes.
For me a somewhat generalised idea of the harmony with close attention to the melody and playing a good bassline with nice voice leading is much more where it's at than 'chord progressions' per se.
(Peter Bernstein for instance thinks there's only basically 2 (and a bit) types of chords, so everything for him is about melody, lead lines and bass movement. I mean, there's not too many combinations with V I and maybe IV... So he say, for instance
Dm7 Dbm11 | Cm7 F13b9 | Bb6/9 - on the rare occasions he'd put a I chord in a turnaround lol, so he's thinking I V I, really.... With movement)
One thing I've found very useful is understanding progressions is analysing them not from the point of view of chord roots, as seems to be common jazz practice, but from the point of view of the prevailing key. This actually makes things a lot simpler in many ways, and reveals how shared line cliches and chromatic voice leading formulae unite apparently diverse chord progressions....
Another thing that's VERY useful is to look at the simplest version of the changes of a tune and get a feel for what the simplest building blocks are. The Ralph Patt Vanilla Book is GREAT for this.
-
Again this all just depends on exactly what you're trying to do with the information. We're talking about an extremely broad topic - how one chord moves to another - so there are many applications, perspectives, and potential practice activities depending on the goals and current abilities of the player. Originally Posted by christianm77
I think it's important that when labelling something is more/less useful to clarify towards what aim.
The Edim7 to Bb/F thing is a good example. It's a way to get back to I. What we do with that knowledge can vary greatly depending on if we're soloing, comping, making a chord melody, reharmonizing, composing, practicing ear training, making an arrangement, etc etc plus depends on current levels of harmonic ability within those activities
-
Anyway, that's probably an example of the sort of post Jake doesn't want, but honestly, it's coming from guys like Barry Harris, Peter Bernstein and others, so it's worth putting up there... That modular, functional thinking really makes learning tunes a lot easier iff you pay attention to what the melody is doing and learn to comp lead lines.
When it's put together like this you think of a Rhythm Tune...
AABA
A section - it's in Bb, maybe moving strongly to IV7 or IVm in bar 6 (or not)
B section - round the houses from III7
And the list just becomes modular chunks of tunes of 8 bars or so and the chord colours relate to the tune... For instance,
Scrapple is Honeysuckle A, Rhythm B
Serpent's Tooth - Rhythm A, Honeysuckle B (but the A is more like Bewitched than standard, at least going from the melody)
Dewey Square is Lady be Good (BUT - the IV chords have a different colour, m instead of 7, cos of the melody....)
Other players might rather encode that melodic information in their harmonic understanding, so the list of modules becomes larger. For bop blowing, we play a bit fast and loose with the changes as they relate to the tune - we don't care about the D on the Ab7 chord in Cherokee, for example. I think PB likes to use the melody for primary inspiration, OTOH.
There are ALWAYS exceptions - Girl from Ipanema - A Train A section, WTF B section, never seen that since. Ain't Misbehaving, Rhythm Bridge with a IVm in bar 4, WTF is up with that B section? And so on... But you learn the exceptions as required.
-
In addition to the Lego approach you may want to check this:
GT15 - Guitar Grimoire: Progressions & Improvisation: Adam Kadmon: 9780825831973: Amazon.com: Books
-
If the subject was how to learn tunes/memorize tunes, then I think these are great points! Originally Posted by christianm77
I mean it's related for sure, loosely, and I agree with what you're writing here in terms of just different ways to look at tunes, it's just off topic.
I get the tendency to remember times when you or someone else thought X was the answer to Y, but then you realized Z was a better solution to Y, so that then when you see X your mind immediately goes "no it's Z!" But this looks a little silly when we're not talking about Y!
But it's all good I mean, I agree with what you're saying here and it's how I think of things too...in/out/in/out, look at form lengths to help memorize tunes, etc etc, just not really the issue that's being discussed
-
Yeah, I mean if your melody is on the note Gb, then Eo7 becomes a lot different from Ebm6 or F7b9 in THAT sense. But if the melody is on C Ebm6 and Eo7 are a lot different from F7b9... And so on... That's why chord melody in the old fashioned sense is such a good tool for learning harmony... Again chooons. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I also think some players think generally a certain way. I think that will shape the way you sound. Some players really don't seem to care about factors that deeply inform another player's sensibility. They may have learned it, but they choose to focus on certain elements.
OTOH it's why lists of this stuff is a bit unsatisfying
-
For you. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Jerry Coker has a list of common improv devices. It varies, depending upon the book.
I believe the following are on most of his lists.
CESH (contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony)
Cry Me A River Lick
Gone But Not Forgotten lick
Change Running
Digital Patterns
3-->b9
Side-Slipping
Harmonic Generalization
Blues Scale
Bebop Lick (over G-7: C, B, Bb, D, A, G. Sometimes a C or an F replace the D)
7-->3 resolution
Hope this helps!
-
I love the use of the managerial passive voice there. Well it IS being discussed, by me, it's just that you aren't interested in discussing it. :-) Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Are you doing a research project or something?
I have no idea what the topic in hand actually is (comparative study of different musicians thought processes perhaps?) but I've dropped about 20 IQ points due to lack of sleep. I'll shut up.
Best of luck with whatever it is you are trying to do!
-
Hey Thanks Mark - that's interesting actually - but was talking about chord progressions/harmonic movement e.g. ii V, backdoor cadence, subV, dominant backcycle, etc (naming or not naming) Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
Hah sorry for being snarky Christian - I have a lot of respect for your posts and perspective, and your passion - it's just funny that often when start a thread here that's different than "how do I sound good on Stella" people often think I'm asking "how do I sound good on stella?" Originally Posted by christianm77
I teach a lot and often get into organizational projects that are usually at first just ways for me to organize my thoughts or awareness of something, then it spawns off into a bunch of different specific uses (both in my teaching and playing/practice) depending on the context.
That's a bit of what's up here, but the first things that come to mind are
1. Reharmonizing: mainly for chord melody, if we're looking for alternate changes but we know the melody and where we want to end up, it's useful to have a list to reference of options to explore, and see how they might work for the melody. Similarly, composing, and trying to get from point A to point B and exploring conventional and non conventional chord changes to get there. I mean, keep in mind for me, I don't really need a list, although sometimes some options are less obvious than others, but when I'm working with a student and want to suggest some alternatives, certainly useful to have something specific to reference rather than just hoping I get lucky.
2. Soloing (or comping) with substitute changes. Especially over simple tunes, like you say there are so many ways to get from A to B - something I've found especially useful is that if I'm soloing I might get into a jam and not know where to go, but knowing substitute changes opens up more doors (especially for tunes where the chords don't change as often.) It's nice to have a list as a jumping off point when exploring ways to approach a tune or progression - to explore alternatives
-
Yeah, this all comes for me out of comparative analysis of song book changes, and probably more important, learning what chord progressions go with what melody note. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
When you reharmonise, you are reharmonising a melody not engaging in some abstruse algebra of chord symbols. And things that might seem obscure become a lot clearer when thought about in this way.
A good example would be when Herbie plonks an Abmaj7 chord down in the key of after Dm7 G7 in the final bars of a 32 bar standard in C major. Why? Well modal interchange to Cm but also, MUCH more importantly, most GASB songs (being tonal music) finish on the tonic note. So it's a safe bet because the chord contains a C. With a C in the bass it sounds cool, unexpected and JAZZ.
BUT - you have to understand the melodic form. If you did this somewhere else in the tune where the melody was on an E, say, you'd screw it up.
I mean that's obvious right? Almost as obvious as using Dbmaj7 for the same job... (And that doesn't have an obvious functional relationship to Dm7 G7.)
---REDACTED: A LOT OF OTHER SHIT -----
So how do we come up for ideas for interesting reharms? Well I think it's good to think of interesting movements, be they tonal or non functional and think melody down. Esp on the guitar, it's interesting the stuff that comes out, that you won't necessarily find in any of these lists of early to mid 20th century songbook cliches.
But also, it helps contextualise obviously why Cole Porter might use say F#m7b5 Fm7 Em7 Ebo7 Dm7 G7 instead of F#m7b5 B7 Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 in a certain spot... Functionally equivalent but one works in that context with the tune and the other doesn't.
I don't understand why the examples I gave are unsuitable for this purpose. I use them all the time for this stuff...2. Soloing (or comping) with substitute changes. Especially over simple tunes, like you say there are so many ways to get from A to B - something I've found especially useful is that if I'm soloing I might get into a jam and not know where to go, but knowing substitute changes opens up more doors (especially for tunes where the chords don't change as often.) It's nice to have a list as a jumping off point when exploring ways to approach a tune or progression - to explore alternatives
But - using the melodic reharmonisation as a basis for soloing while the rest of the band plays the original changes. Don't book a pianist, and it might sound hip.Last edited by christianm77; 10-01-2018 at 04:35 PM.
-
Another way of putting that rather long post:
-
Here’s something on the topic I spotted a few years ago.
eVirtuoso Music Theory Chords Lesson 3 - Chord Progressions and Cadences
-
Yeah I redacted that bit because it sounded like I was having a go at you. I didn't actually mean it that way. Sorry about that. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
EDIT: To be honest, reading back, I think you've shown a lot of patience with me here. Sorry to be a bit of a berk to a really cool player.
Might be time to take a little break for a bit. ****ing internet lol.Last edited by christianm77; 10-01-2018 at 05:29 PM.
-
I briefly had a student who was focused on learning about harmonization/reharmonization.
I bought a digital copy of The Jazz Harmony Book by David Berkman.
Fun student but alas she was pregnant and when baby arrived, so ended our sessions.
I only read about 40 pages deep but he was well organized in codifying certain useable relationships.
No lists just piano score examples demonstrating different ideas.
One way I've generated alternative ideas for variations on standard progressions is by lining up 28 modal chord scales
to a parallel root. Within this modal interchange construct, chords with the same letter are moral equivalents.
A, Ab and A# root chords are all interchangeable.
Take a standard progression move like III VI II V while drawing chords from two or more modal chord scales.
You can use more than one chord if you want to represent a part of the progression.
These voice lead in a similar fashion as if the chords had just come from a single scale.
You can use extended harmony to represent a given degree or just a straight 7th chord.
One other thought is just building ideas from the ground up. How many ways can you arrive at a singular destination
in one move? Try multiple chord qualities on the approach chord addressing each possible root movement.
If you find a great list, post the source here.
-
Short answer: I can't think of a book.
Perhaps not relevant: If I wanted a list of ways to get to Imajor, I'd page through the Real Book.
-
-
There is a website that is a progression dictionary for jazz songs - the progressions are in Roman numerals, and for each one it lists jazz standards that use that particular progression. So it is the reverse of naturally encountering progressions by learning songs... I looked around and could not find it with a few quick searches; but I think I do remember that a lot of the background space color was a pale yellow.
In the mean time...
http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz...-progressions/
this one has cadences
Jazz Chord Progressions
-
Reply With Quote
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading