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I believe the common progression > song reference is on the Ralph Patt site.
The Tonal Centers Page
Jake,
So using the permutation calculator I entered all 12 root degrees in Roman Numerals.
I just used the flat (b) names for simplicity sake. Whether a degree is really a bII or #I would depend on the context.
I asked it to find combinations of 4 order not important. There are 495 different combinations.
I asked it to find the same with order now important. There are 11,880 combinations.
Either way a bit overkill for a given practice session.
Could be an interesting exercise to take a given melody phrase and try to harmonize it with a random 4 chord
root motion sequence. Attached is the larger list randomized.
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10-02-2018 08:33 AM
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Or you could record a bunch of them, and then come back to them later and practice soloing on them by ear.
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i think there’s been a breakdown in communication here, beginning with Jake asking the wrong question
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Well, what he said was:
Does anyone know of a good book or resource (website, video, etc) that simply lists tons of common harmonic moves/cadences
I gave him six, courtesy of Jens
I'm not even sure there are TONS
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If you boil the OP down to one word it's:
"List?"Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by bako
I do work with reharms quite a bit, and I like your ideas of using the permutations/charts etc to find new avenues for things like modal interchange. Works especially well with cycle voice leading concepts.
In this case I did want to start with the more classic real book kind of stuff, my idea was then to do a bit of organization in terms of
A list: You'll see this on >50% of standards (approximately, of course)
B list: Comes up on 20-50% of standards
C list: 5-20% roughly
Then perhaps ones that to my ears fit in that type of harmony decently even if you don't actually see them on lead sheets all that often.
"standards" meaning mostly the old vocal tunes (and ways jazz musicians commonly play them) as opposed to Wayne Shorter, Monk, etc.)
Because when we get into post 60s stuff, 'turnarounds' I guess become less of a thing, and the sky becomes the limit as to possibilities (evident on your PDF, hah!)
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Originally Posted by pauln
Originally Posted by bako
Cool stuff with the PDF. I like using randomization tools for those things. Could randomize the roman numerals and randomize potential chord types, in a spread sheet, and see what happens. That hits a different target than this particular project, but definitely still something to play around with. Have done vaguely similar things in the past, before I was as adept with randomizers and spreadsheets, so it took longer.
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I think it's extremely common that folks might ask a question and the most useful response really may be "I think it is more valuable to do X/Y/Z rather than worry about that particular question." And sometimes that's really helpful.
So to an extent, I get it.
The problem is that without knowing the reason for the question, what the goal is, etc, that kind of response can be off base.
I don't have the same kind of time available that I used to, to get into long in depth discussions on forums (though I do enjoy it) so I try to keep things a bit more direct. For anybody curious, I did at some response here state the reason for wanting a list - mainly for reference when helping students re-harmonize, but starting from a more "normal" or "standard" base rather than jumping into a lot of creative possibilities.
Similarly, not that I'm some incredible jazz player, but in my practice I've already covered a lot of the basic ground, so sometimes the objections to my questions can be things like "instead of asking that question, you should learn more tunes!" which is a little silly because for anybody who knows me or is familiar with my playing they'd know that I already know a bunch of tunes, am comfortable soloing/comping in a variety of settings and styles etc. Not to pull ego, but, meh, we're all human.
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Hey Jake... here are two free text that are on line... lots of info in the direction your looking.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Just to clarify, the PDFS are just the table of contents for both books, correct?
For anybody else interested the titles are
"The Jazz Language" by Dan Haerle
and
"Jazz Theory" by Stuart Smith (4th revised edition)
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Originally Posted by Reg
I was able to find the full PDFS online
jazz theory
the jazz language
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You are getting a lot of resistance from the "learn songs" folks - this reflects Wes' "I don't practice anything I would not use in a song" methodology. But on the other hand, there is Coltrane who used the abstract approach of staring at his mandala for hours as he played.
Some discussion of it hereLast edited by pauln; 10-06-2018 at 04:53 AM.
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He got the idea from Have You Met Miss Jones :-)
Seriously? I think this is a false dichotomy because you are not going to find a sax player who could play a ballad better than 'Trane, but what Jake Acci is talking about (AFAIK) is bog standard harmonic movement found in standards.
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Originally Posted by pauln
Just want it to be super duper clear that this post wasn't "I'd like to make a list of turnarounds to practice" and even more so it was not "I'd like to make a list of turnarounds to practice instead of having to learn tunes."
Originally Posted by christianm77
"Does anybody know of a good recipe for meatloaf?"
"One can not truly cook meatloaf until they have cooked the perfect roasted chicken"
"Why cook anything when if you work hard at your job and make a lot of money you can just have healthy meals prepared or delivered for you?
"Eating meat is wrong and here's why"
"I really don't like meat loaf. Cook something else."
"Look I know you want a recipe for meatloaf, but I'd like to share with you some childhood trauma related to goats in a neighboring farm in the village that I grew up"
"I support your decision to cook meatloaf because I think God wanted us to eat animals"
"I make an amazing meatloaf and have never used a recipe. It's just something you have to experience."
All right that's my creative writing for the day
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yes
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Didn't Don Byas have a turnaround?
Tadd Dameron.
Coltrane
Forgot about dropback.co.uk (but didn't forget lego bricks)...Have to revisit
"books":
Modulation - Max Reger (more of a booklet)
Harmonic Experience - WA Mathieu (sections on diatonic sequences, and cyclic sequences)
WTC I and II by Bach
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Can't think of a particular book now, but i 've found this approach really useful for practicing and for students. I see it as a building block, a step between learning the basics, chords, scales, etc, and tunes. Plus it's always fun to practice substitutions and harmonic improvisation!
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Some cadences we've heard of and some that nobody's ever heard of :-)
Cadence - Wikipedia
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I like the double leading tone cadence (medieval)
7-1
#4-5
2-1
And the English cadence with its clashing 7ths
I find it quite helpful to remember that harmonic cadences come from melodic cadences. 2-1 is the original (plainsong), 7-1, 4-3 and then loads of moves like 3-1 and so on in jazz.
In fact if you study bop lines and standards moves to the 1 are generally associated with section breaks and endings. Moves to the 3rd or the 5th have a less decisive sound. So that’s kind of carried over from classical harmony where we want to end on the 1 in the melody in the final or section end cadence (perfect authentic). You can study how this works by making chord melody arrangements and so on.
If you are reharmonising this thinking offers lots of possibilities. Simple example, 7-1 could be V7 I, bII7 I or VII7 I and so on with inversions as an option. I also like the thing of thinking of the bass line first as a counterpoint to the melody and then populating the chords from there.
A cadence itself can be understood as a chord move where the majority of notes move to a target chord by step or half step, preferably with some contrary motion. The more movement, the stronger the cadence.
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Or, of course, you can just, um... stop. It's very effective
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A couple more ways to return from F tonal centre:
F Fm6 C
F F#dim7 C
Return from Dm tonal centre using a minor II-V cadence that resolves to (major) C:
Dm Dm7b5 G7b9 C
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In addition to the resources already mentioned (Hearin' the Changes, Lego Bricks, Ralph Patt), there's this other book:
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display
Not as comprehensive, but still very useful :-)
George Barnes plays Bach/1966
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