Cadences (iii VI ii V, backdoor cadences, sub7) - Good RESOURCE?

[bako]

I believe the common progression > song reference is on the Ralph Patt site.

The Tonal Centers Page

Jake,
So using the permutation calculator I entered all 12 root degrees in Roman Numerals.
I just used the flat (b) names for simplicity sake. Whether a degree is really a bII or #I would depend on the context.
I asked it to find combinations of 4 order not important. There are 495 different combinations.
I asked it to find the same with order now important. There are 11,880 combinations.
Either way a bit overkill for a given practice session.
Could be an interesting exercise to take a given melody phrase and try to harmonize it with a random 4 chord
root motion sequence. Attached is the larger list randomized.

[christianm77]

Or you could record a bunch of them, and then come back to them later and practice soloing on them by ear.

[joe2758]

i think there’s been a breakdown in communication here, beginning with Jake asking the wrong question

[ragman1]

Well, what he said was:

Does anyone know of a good book or resource (website, video, etc) that simply lists tons of common harmonic moves/cadences

That pdf above has certainly got TONS but why he wants TONS instead of a few really good ones, I'm not sure :-)

I gave him six, courtesy of Jens

I'm not even sure there are TONS

[matt.guitarteacher]

If you boil the OP down to one word it's:

"List?"

so...putting aside any assumptions...

Does anyone know of a good book or resource (website, video, etc) that simply lists tons of common harmonic moves/cadences that you'll see in jazz standards, real book stuff? I list a few examples below.

He then actually preempted ALL of the objections and derails which followed, by politely asking for replies to be limited to the actual question rather than value judgments etc.

I actually don't need accompanying explanations (though that does no harm) but more so just curious of a list or if any book or anything has ever tried to catalogue.

I don't know how you can be more plain.

Again it's super-duper appreciated if the only responses here are ones answering the question asked - I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but I'm really not asking for advice on whether this is a good question or not, or whether I should be asking a different question, nor anybody's personal opinions/preferences on different cadences, etc etc - hope you get my drift.

[JakeAcci]

Yeah I redacted that bit because it sounded like I was having a go at you. I didn't actually mean it that way. Sorry about that.

EDIT: To be honest, reading back, I think you've shown a lot of patience with me here. Sorry to be a bit of a berk to a really cool player.

Might be time to take a little break for a bit. ****ing internet lol.

No worries at all Christian - for anybody following along Christian and I PM'd about this and all is good. I wasn't actually like, mad or anything.

I briefly had a student who was focused on learning about harmonization/reharmonization.
I bought a digital copy of The Jazz Harmony Book by David Berkman.
Fun student but alas she was pregnant and when baby arrived, so ended our sessions.
I only read about 40 pages deep but he was well organized in codifying certain useable relationships.
No lists just piano score examples demonstrating different ideas.

One way I've generated alternative ideas for variations on standard progressions is by lining up 28 modal chord scales
to a parallel root. Within this modal interchange construct, chords with the same letter are moral equivalents.
A, Ab and A# root chords are all interchangeable.
Take a standard progression move like III VI II V while drawing chords from two or more modal chord scales.
You can use more than one chord if you want to represent a part of the progression.
These voice lead in a similar fashion as if the chords had just come from a single scale.
You can use extended harmony to represent a given degree or just a straight 7th chord.

One other thought is just building ideas from the ground up. How many ways can you arrive at a singular destination
in one move? Try multiple chord qualities on the approach chord addressing each possible root movement.

If you find a great list, post the source here.

Thanks Bako - definitely interesting.

I do work with reharms quite a bit, and I like your ideas of using the permutations/charts etc to find new avenues for things like modal interchange. Works especially well with cycle voice leading concepts.

In this case I did want to start with the more classic real book kind of stuff, my idea was then to do a bit of organization in terms of
A list: You'll see this on >50% of standards (approximately, of course)
B list: Comes up on 20-50% of standards
C list: 5-20% roughly
Then perhaps ones that to my ears fit in that type of harmony decently even if you don't actually see them on lead sheets all that often.

"standards" meaning mostly the old vocal tunes (and ways jazz musicians commonly play them) as opposed to Wayne Shorter, Monk, etc.)

Because when we get into post 60s stuff, 'turnarounds' I guess become less of a thing, and the sky becomes the limit as to possibilities (evident on your PDF, hah!)

How to Practice and Apply Back Cycling

Thanks! Good stuff in there. Clear resource.

http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz...-progressions/

this one has cadences
Jazz Chord Progressions

Great, thank you!

I believe the common progression > song reference is on the Ralph Patt site.

The Tonal Centers Page

Jake,
So using the permutation calculator I entered all 12 root degrees in Roman Numerals.
I just used the flat (b) names for simplicity sake. Whether a degree is really a bII or #I would depend on the context.
I asked it to find combinations of 4 order not important. There are 495 different combinations.
I asked it to find the same with order now important. There are 11,880 combinations.
Either way a bit overkill for a given practice session.
Could be an interesting exercise to take a given melody phrase and try to harmonize it with a random 4 chord
root motion sequence. Attached is the larger list randomized.

Re Platt: interesting, thanks. I feel like this was mentioned before but maybe I hadn't investigate the link before. Looks good.

Cool stuff with the PDF. I like using randomization tools for those things. Could randomize the roman numerals and randomize potential chord types, in a spread sheet, and see what happens. That hits a different target than this particular project, but definitely still something to play around with. Have done vaguely similar things in the past, before I was as adept with randomizers and spreadsheets, so it took longer.

If you boil the OP down to one word it's:

"List?"
He then actually preempted ALL of the objections and derails which followed, by politely asking for replies to be limited to the actual question rather than value judgments etc.

I don't know how you can be more plain.

Thanks Matt. I recognize that it's a public forum and any post invites public discussion.

I think it's extremely common that folks might ask a question and the most useful response really may be "I think it is more valuable to do X/Y/Z rather than worry about that particular question." And sometimes that's really helpful.

So to an extent, I get it.

The problem is that without knowing the reason for the question, what the goal is, etc, that kind of response can be off base.

I don't have the same kind of time available that I used to, to get into long in depth discussions on forums (though I do enjoy it) so I try to keep things a bit more direct. For anybody curious, I did at some response here state the reason for wanting a list - mainly for reference when helping students re-harmonize, but starting from a more "normal" or "standard" base rather than jumping into a lot of creative possibilities.

Similarly, not that I'm some incredible jazz player, but in my practice I've already covered a lot of the basic ground, so sometimes the objections to my questions can be things like "instead of asking that question, you should learn more tunes!" which is a little silly because for anybody who knows me or is familiar with my playing they'd know that I already know a bunch of tunes, am comfortable soloing/comping in a variety of settings and styles etc. Not to pull ego, but, meh, we're all human.

[Reg]

Hey Jake... here are two free text that are on line... lots of info in the direction your looking.

[JakeAcci]

Hey Jake... here are two free text that are on line... lots of info in the direction your looking.

Awesome Reg, thank you so much.

Just to clarify, the PDFS are just the table of contents for both books, correct?

For anybody else interested the titles are

"The Jazz Language" by Dan Haerle
and
"Jazz Theory" by Stuart Smith (4th revised edition)

[JakeAcci]

Hey Jake... here are two free text that are on line... lots of info in the direction your looking.

Oh adding/editing previous comment:

I was able to find the full PDFS online

jazz theory

the jazz language

[pauln]

You are getting a lot of resistance from the "learn songs" folks - this reflects Wes' "I don't practice anything I would not use in a song" methodology. But on the other hand, there is Coltrane who used the abstract approach of staring at his mandala for hours as he played.



Some discussion of it here

[christianm77]

He got the idea from Have You Met Miss Jones :-)

Seriously? I think this is a false dichotomy because you are not going to find a sax player who could play a ballad better than 'Trane, but what Jake Acci is talking about (AFAIK) is bog standard harmonic movement found in standards.

[JakeAcci]

You are getting a lot of resistance from the "learn songs" folks - this reflects Wes' "I don't practice anything I would not use in a song" methodology. But on the other hand, there is Coltrane who used the abstract approach of staring at his mandala for hours as he played.

Some discussion of it here

Hey Paul, hope this doesn't come off as rude but your comment is kind of unrelated, because this wasn't meant to be a discussion of practice strategies. I do hope I clarified that as the discussion went on, but even if not. However, the article looks interesting and I'll check it out, so thank you for sharing.

Just want it to be super duper clear that this post wasn't "I'd like to make a list of turnarounds to practice" and even more so it was not "I'd like to make a list of turnarounds to practice instead of having to learn tunes."

He got the idea from Have You Met Miss Jones :-)

Seriously? I think this is a false dichotomy because you are not going to find a sax player who could play a ballad better than 'Trane, but what Jake Acci is talking about (AFAIK) is bog standard harmonic movement found in standards.

Yes, false dichotomy, not related to any points I've made here.

"Does anybody know of a good recipe for meatloaf?"

"One can not truly cook meatloaf until they have cooked the perfect roasted chicken"

"Why cook anything when if you work hard at your job and make a lot of money you can just have healthy meals prepared or delivered for you?

"Eating meat is wrong and here's why"

"I really don't like meat loaf. Cook something else."

"Look I know you want a recipe for meatloaf, but I'd like to share with you some childhood trauma related to goats in a neighboring farm in the village that I grew up"

"I support your decision to cook meatloaf because I think God wanted us to eat animals"

"I make an amazing meatloaf and have never used a recipe. It's just something you have to experience."

All right that's my creative writing for the day

[Reg]

yes

[jazz4ever]

Didn't Don Byas have a turnaround?
Tadd Dameron.
Coltrane

Forgot about dropback.co.uk (but didn't forget lego bricks)...Have to revisit

"books":
Modulation - Max Reger (more of a booklet)
Harmonic Experience - WA Mathieu (sections on diatonic sequences, and cyclic sequences)
WTC I and II by Bach

[Alter]

Can't think of a particular book now, but i 've found this approach really useful for practicing and for students. I see it as a building block, a step between learning the basics, chords, scales, etc, and tunes. Plus it's always fun to practice substitutions and harmonic improvisation!

[frabarmus]

Does anyone know of a good book or resource (website, video, etc) that simply lists tons of common harmonic moves/cadences that you'll see in jazz standards, real book stuff?

Checkout Jamey Aebersold Volume 76 How To Learn Tunes by David Baker.

[Bop Head]

[...] Does anyone know of a good book or resource (website, video, etc) that simply lists tons of common harmonic moves/cadences that you'll see in jazz standards, real book stuff? [...]

The best thing I have found in this regard is "Jazz. mode d'emploi" which is written in French by Philippe Baudoin.

[ragman1]

Some cadences we've heard of and some that nobody's ever heard of :-)

Cadence - Wikipedia

[Christian Miller]

I like the double leading tone cadence (medieval)

7-1
#4-5
2-1

And the English cadence with its clashing 7ths

I find it quite helpful to remember that harmonic cadences come from melodic cadences. 2-1 is the original (plainsong), 7-1, 4-3 and then loads of moves like 3-1 and so on in jazz.

In fact if you study bop lines and standards moves to the 1 are generally associated with section breaks and endings. Moves to the 3rd or the 5th have a less decisive sound. So that’s kind of carried over from classical harmony where we want to end on the 1 in the melody in the final or section end cadence (perfect authentic). You can study how this works by making chord melody arrangements and so on.

If you are reharmonising this thinking offers lots of possibilities. Simple example, 7-1 could be V7 I, bII7 I or VII7 I and so on with inversions as an option. I also like the thing of thinking of the bass line first as a counterpoint to the melody and then populating the chords from there.

A cadence itself can be understood as a chord move where the majority of notes move to a target chord by step or half step, preferably with some contrary motion. The more movement, the stronger the cadence.

[ragman1]

Or, of course, you can just, um... stop. It's very effective

[alez]

A couple more ways to return from F tonal centre:

F Fm6 C
F F#dim7 C

Return from Dm tonal centre using a minor II-V cadence that resolves to (major) C:

Dm Dm7b5 G7b9 C

[alez]

In addition to the resources already mentioned (Hearin' the Changes, Lego Bricks, Ralph Patt), there's this other book:
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display

Not as comprehensive, but still very useful :-)