The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Autumn Leaves G minor, why not think of the G-7 ending on Bb7 as F minor?-screen-shot-2018-09-15-17-06-17-jpg


    Doesn't look like everyone totally agrees on the "green" part of this well known standard, so I wonder if anyone could explain me what is looked as the "correct" way? When I saw it first, I thought of it as being F harmonic minor. So the C7 is a dom7, cause the E is sharped from the harmonic minor, and the Bb7 is a dom 7, cause the D is sharped from the melodic minor. Is this wrong?

    I have also bought the Matt Warnock study guide, and he refers to it as iii-VI-ii-V of IVmaj7,which I don't quite understand.

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  3. #2

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    The C7 Fm7 Bb7 are not even necessary it's just a path back to the Am7b5. You could just play Gm7 over the entire two bars and it would work, that would be a vanilla version.

    People play those two bars in a bunch of different ways, get creative with it. Like: (hold a Bb note on top for these chords) Gm7 Gb7 F7sus4 E7b5.

    That all said, there really is no "correct way".

  4. #3

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    Following fep ...

    Plus, the F-7 doesn't sound like "I" at this point in the tune. It sounds like the beginning of yet another ii-V (the whole tune is ii-Vs). And, it's not an F-6 or F-maj7 type of "I" sound, it's a minor 7th.

    You can theorize yourself into lots of things, but ...

  5. #4

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    You can make that Fm a temporary I if you want.

    TBH I normally go

    Gm F#m | Fm Bb7 |

    Or

    Gm F#o7 | Fm Bb7 |

    The destination here is Eb, of course the progression never actually gets there instead going Am7b5 D7 Gm

    Anyway, it's all a decoration for the original progression which is

    Gm | Em7b5 |

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You can make that Fm a temporary I if you want.

    TBH I normally go

    Gm F#m | Fm Bb7 |

    Or

    Gm F#o7 | Fm Bb7 |

    The destination here is Eb, of course the progression never actually gets there instead going Am7b5 D7 Gm

    Anyway, it's all a decoration for the original progression which is

    Gm | Em7b5 |
    Of course, you can turn it into a dominant and go to Eb13 instead of Am7b5 as Wynton Kelly (and many others since) have done. Wynton liked to use the first progression you've mentioned here and also added descending chromatic ii-Vs to the blowing sections for bars 3 & 4: | Cm7 | F7 | Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7b5 D7 | Gm7 |.

  7. #6

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    I suspect you've found that playing Gm over Fm/Bb7 doesn't sound good so you want to treat it like a 2-5 of Eb and play Fm so it fits... But there's nothing wrong with Gm; it's the key you're in. It's the chords that aren't good.

    How many online transcriptions have you found that use those chords? I only found one by Chet Baker and he just skips over them safely with sporadic chord tones. No one else uses them - as others here have said - so the answer to this thread is:

    Play Some Nicer Chords

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I suspect you've found that playing Gm over Fm/Bb7 doesn't sound good so you want to treat it like a 2-5 of Eb and play Fm so it fits... But there's nothing wrong with Gm; it's the key you're in. It's the chords that aren't good.

    How many online transcriptions have you found that use those chords? I only found one by Chet Baker and he just skips over them safely with sporadic chord tones. No one else uses them - as others here have said - so the answer to this thread is:

    Play Some Nicer Chords

    What is considered the "standard"? I mean, if I were to jam with some friends, what would probably be played? None of us are very pro jazz musicians.

    I got that chord progression from Jens Larsen's blog:

    Autumn Leaves - Soloing with arpeggios - Jens Larsen


    As this blog post talk about, I want to practice arpeggios and guide tones, and that's why I ask. I tend to follow Jens' guide to practicing arpeggios also, so I practice them through the 3 nps positions, and also random from top string, to bottom string. So for that particular part we have discussed, I would practice it through the key of F minor. Of course, some of the notes have to be raised to fit harmonic/melodic minor.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    your sheet seems to be a mix of several versions. if you want the Gm7 C7 Fm7 Bb7, you got a II-V in Eb that instead goes to the Eb7. that's pretty much standard. some go to Ebmaj7 instead, which i don't like. if you want to go straight to the Am7b5 you wouldn't want to play the Fm7 Bb7 before that but stay on Gm. see the cannonball/miles version for that. later miles versions, wynton and jimmy raney use the chords PMB has posted which are very nice.

    also there is usually a G7 somewhere in bar 8 and bar 32. and the Gm7 chords are mostly Gm6 chords.

    It's from the 6th real book

    Autumn Leaves G minor, why not think of the G-7 ending on Bb7 as F minor?-screen-shot-2018-09-16-14-13-09-jpg

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Of course, you can turn it into a dominant and go to Eb13 instead of Am7b5 as Wynton Kelly (and many others since) have done. Wynton liked to use the first progression you've mentioned here and also added descending chromatic ii-Vs to the blowing sections for bars 3 & 4: | Cm7 | F7 | Bm7 E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7b5 D7 | Gm7 |.
    Turning the chords into dominants, 2 5s and tritone subs thereof is BIG and CLEVER as it’s a back cycling progression. Makes total sense.

  11. #10

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    I think people worry too much about every chord having to be in agreement. The most important thing is not how you get to a destination but what you destination is and when you arrive there.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    It's from the 6th real book

    Autumn Leaves G minor, why not think of the G-7 ending on Bb7 as F minor?-screen-shot-2018-09-16-14-13-09-jpg
    Notice in the real book it’s E-, not E-7

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Notice in the real book it’s E-, not E-7

    Yes, I changed it to get a even bigger effect when practicing the arpeggios.

  14. #13

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    E-7 is not E minor

  15. #14

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    E-6 would be better or E-maj7

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    What is considered the "standard"?
    That's a very good question. Maybe the composer's original version of it? But when a tune gets absorbed into the standards repertoire then it may simply be what most players play.

    Unfortunately that can vary, as we know. So in the end I suppose it's the version that works for you, one that you're happy with, sounds good to you, and so on.

    The trouble with that is that players with little experience won't necessarily know what's good which is why they want to be given advice.

    Personally I use Gm7/Gb7 - Fm7/E7. That works fine for me. It's easy and you can play two bars of Gm over it and it sounds fine.

    But the suggestions the others have made here are good too, especially if you're comping in a band. Take your pick. Also, as I said before, there are several notation transcriptions on YouTube.

  17. #16

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    Possibly it’s less important to know what the standard version of the changes are than the simplest vanilla version and then build up from there.

    Really last 8 is:

    | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm6 | % |
    | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm6 | % |

    Cos the Em7b5 is the same thing as Gm6, right?

    That extra business is just a way of dressing things up so we have something to listen to when there’s a gap in the melody. It’s up to you if you use those changes when you solo to create movement or stick to something simple like the above.

    Compers - use your lugholes and compliment what the soloist is doing. If in doubt keep it simple.

  18. #17

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    "Use your lugholes..."

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Autumn Leaves G minor, why not think of the G-7 ending on Bb7 as F minor?-screen-shot-2018-09-15-17-06-17-jpg


    Doesn't look like everyone totally agrees on the "green" part of this well known standard, so I wonder if anyone could explain me what is looked as the "correct" way? When I saw it first, I thought of it as being F harmonic minor. So the C7 is a dom7, cause the E is sharped from the harmonic minor, and the Bb7 is a dom 7, cause the D is sharped from the melodic minor. Is this wrong?

    I have also bought the Matt Warnock study guide, and he refers to it as iii-VI-ii-V of IVmaj7,which I don't quite understand.
    ... because it is Eb major, Mat Warnock is right. If you want to play harmonic minor, try C.

  20. #19

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    Autumn Leaves G minor, why not think of the G-7 ending on Bb7 as F minor?-al-jpeg
    I use this for easy trans to key.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Possibly it’s less important to know what the standard version of the changes are than the simplest vanilla version and then build up from there.

    Really last 8 is:

    | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm6 | % |
    | Am7b5 | D7 | Gm6 | % |

    Cos the Em7b5 is the same thing as Gm6, right?

    That extra business is just a way of dressing things up so we have something to listen to when there’s a gap in the melody. It’s up to you if you use those changes when you solo to create movement or stick to something simple like the above.

    Compers - use your lugholes and compliment what the soloist is doing. If in doubt keep it simple.

    Exactly! Focus on practical comping and soloing with respect to the situation.

    Disclaimer: I've never played Autumn Leaves before (!)

    What really jumps out at me is your correct identification of the chord as Gm6, which has a different feel from Gm. Notice that this Gm6 has the same sound feel as the Gm6 in "Summer Time" in G minor, another of the suggestive "Four Seasons" motivations... so experimenting with using the Gm6 vamp of Summer Time for the Gm6 of Autumn Leaves...

    Instead of

    Gm6 | % |

    try "dressing it up" with an extended Summer Time vamp a la Barry Harris

    | 3x23xx 5x45xx | 6x57xx 7x67xx |

    the extension (fourth chord) offering the harmonic flexibility of leading back to either the Am7b5 or Cm7.