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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    Theory/composition can and should be taught better. Some great points here. However, the people I know that are successful achieved despite their college experience for the most part. There were some mentors and lessons learned and place to incubate for four years but the composers that I know evolved similar to the DIY musicians I know (rock bands etc). Finding like minded people, sharing ideas etc. Not too much emphasis on the classes/course content etc.

    This doesn't justify not getting students to compose more in theory class etc... just my 2 cents

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    London
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    13,339
    I just want a correspondence course to get my butt kicked on strict counterpoint and Bach harmony.

    I can write music, I just want better chops.

    Needs differ.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I just want a correspondence course to get my butt kicked on strict counterpoint and Bach harmony.

    I can write music, I just want better chops.

    Needs differ.
    Seriously? That should be available.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    London
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    13,339

  5. #55
    Found these in 5 minutes, but there may be more out there...

    Access to this page has been denied.


    Free Counterpoint Online - Home

  6. #56
    There is a chapter in one of Bert Ligon's books where he takes a Charlie Parker lick and shows how you can extract ideas from the lick and develop exercises to drill them into your playing. Exercises are also about being able to adapt the ideas from the lick to harmonic situations other than the original one.
    I didn't major in music but it seems to me that this type of approach is not emphasized enough. It's like there is a separation. It's the job of people who write theory books and music texts to extract common harmonic, rhythmic and melodic devices of an era/style and it's the job of the student to memorize their findings.
    I think a better approach to music education would be to focus on helping students master identifying and stealing concepts and making them their own. Not just melody but all aspects of musical creation and performance.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 10-18-2018 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    There is a chapter in one of Bert Ligon's books where he takes a Charlie Parker lick and shows how you can extract ideas from the lick and develop exercises to drill them in your playing. Exercises are also about being able to adapt the ideas from the lick to harmonic situations other than the original one.
    I didn't major in music but it seems to me that this type of approach is not emphasized enough. It's like there is a separation. It's the job of people who write theory books and music texts to extract common harmonic, rhythmic and melodic devices of an era/style and it's the job of the student to memorize their findings.
    I think a better approach to music education would be to focus on helping students master identifying and stealing concepts and making them their own. Not just melody but all aspects of musical creation and performance.
    I understand what you are saying and I am guilty of the same thing as you are above -we are both asking a LOT of Theory Books ,though or 'Specialized Theory ' Instructions but in different ways .

    I am asking for more advanced , more wide open Chord Theory and much more extensive voicings but at the same time asking for 'harmonic glue ' more versatile Advanced Basic Theory ( to enable me to create ' fresh ' mostly non dissonant voicings that connect in 'other' ways in addition to Roman Numerals or beyond etc.
    Which - is asking a lot !

    Theory Books cover the same stuff over and over and over for most of the Book and very little Modern Practice .

    >Persicetti says at the beginning of I think 20th Century Harmony :

    'Any chord can follow any other chord .'
    Great but how about a few pointers Vince on exactly how as a compositional exercise we can connect ANY two voicings?
    And I am NOT talking about going around the Circle of Fifths 8 times to get to the new destination...lol.

    I haven't looked at a Theory Book in a long time [ and probably should, will ]- and I do 'hear ' better but obviously I will have to do the work myself and often there are voicings and connections and modulations that 'work ' and it's experimentation .


    Rick Beatto seems to have a good overview of a lot of this , though not specifically on the Guitar-just as a 'Teacher'.
    And even Ted Greene did not have many of the Piano type 5 and 6 note stretched voicings I am often exploring -mostly I like the sound and can get self Harmonic Rhythms ( fit into the foundation overall Rhythm later) obviously more easily with bigger voicings.
    Not actually ' Jazz ' .

    Speaking of Terms - I think [ could be wrong but it seems to explain better ] that there are Harmonic 'Regions ' of specific types and that 'Key' is a more general/vague term and specifically we can have a 'Major Region ' and then more specifically IF we want to -a 'Major 7th b5 Region ' and the Improv. or voicings/ Subs can reinforce that or not.

    We can also have a 'Major Region ' or a 'Dominant Region ' and a strong Improviser can make the 'Major Region' sound like a IV or a good writer/composer can do the same etc etc .
    So we have the :
    1['Zoom In function' -Chordal Region'- and in Composition NOW for Pop/Jazz/R&B OR Improv. 90% maybe even 99% of the Melody or improv is dependent upon the ' Region' [Example -Major 7#11 Region ]
    and ONLY at the end of the 'Line ' do we hear the 'Roman Numeral function '
    because the Melody starts changing depending upon the Roman Numeral Function and DESTINATION ...etc.

    2]The Zoom Out Function - The Key

    3]Zoom out More Function- The Key Scheme


    A few terms when I hear' phrygian dominant ' [not that I am a big CST fan but basic CST I feel for myself I should understand but never 'need' lol ].

    So is this ALWAYS just a synthetic b7 added or substituted to the Scale ?

    I call this that I stumbled on the 'Harmonic Minor Blues' scale

    1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 n7 - it ends on the Octave

    And works over ii Vs and major 7ths as III Harmonic Minor B

    And I used it on Blues from the 2 to 9 of any Dominant Chord but works on V Harmonic Minor B ( from the 5th of a Dom Chord and many other transpositions also. .

    Does everyone use the Roman Numeral thing to denote the Transposition of the Scale ?
    I.E.
    III Harmonic Minor Blues scale over a Major 7th Chord means play it from the 3rd of the Chord.

    But again I just want to shorten my long road a bit from some Modern Chord Theory etc.

    You want books to give you the Tools to play like _______ 80% George Benson 18% Mick Taylor lol.

    Rhythm Guitar- 60 % McCoy Tyner 30% Stevie Wonder - 10% Donald Fagen - read the 'Book ' twice , play through Examples and BAM ...

    Chapter two -60% Stevie W 30%Donald Fagen 10 %McCoy Tyner ...lol.

    Again I know you did not mean this and I include myself in the expecting Theory to make me a Musical Genius ...kind of ridiculous subconscious whim ...
    I am almost completely self taught and catching up on Theory - [not on Technique -lucky me lol ].
    But they rarely go beyond secondary dominants/ and no Modern Cadences / Modulation Theory = bad.

    Like the 'cracking the code ' picking thing - it's a trick ! That's how they do it !

    AND Troy Grady due to extensively 'cracking the code ' is now the* Bruce Lee of Pick technique- easily outpicking Benson,DiMeola, Matteo Mancuso , Malmsteen, McLaughlin, Steve Morse,Govan, etc etc etc .


    So the reality is no book will teach you to play like Charlie Parker- ESPECIALLY if the Guy who wrote the Book can't do it either.




    So I guess my point is we should not expect too much from theory ....


    *not really-But I do think for people learning or especially going from Intermediate to advanced that Grady's Site is a good resource..
    BUT - in the 70's and 80's we had great pickers using far less complicated systems.

    Whether using a pick or fingers keep it as simple and consistent as possible - and even alternation will be the vast majority of your strokes with pick or any two fingers for single lines.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-19-2018 at 09:34 AM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I understand what you are saying and I am guilty of the same thing as you are above -we are both asking a LOT of Theory Books ,though or 'Specialized Theory ' Instructions but in different ways .

    I am asking for more advanced , more wide open Chord Theory and much more extensive voicings but at the same time asking for 'harmonic glue ' more Basic Theory to enable me to create ' fresh ' mostly non dissonant voicings that connect in 'other' ways in addition to Roman Numerals or beyond etc.
    Which - is asking a lot
    What you’re looking for, based on your description, is found in the Equal Interval System. As it is a composers course, it isn’t guitar-centric, but that’s a good thing IMO. At the very outset, traditional key-centers are out the window, although the voiceleading system works perfectly in that scheme of things as well.



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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras View Post
    What you’re looking for, based on your description, is found in the Equal Interval System. As it is a composers course, it isn’t guitar-centric, but that’s a good thing IMO. At the very outset, traditional key-centers are out the window, although the voiceleading system works perfectly in that scheme of things as well.



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    Well I had a big long answer but I am connecting things now with some new Cadences and resolving tritones in other ways but still passing what I call the Pop Test.
    I am not making dissonant unusual sounding Music..and usually the 12 Tone stuff is like they are trying to prove their 'Theory' rather than sounding good or feeling good.

    Arnold Schoenberg - The 12-Tone System - Music - The New York Times

    This Article kind of sums that up.

    I like the 'Regions ' Concept from Schoenberg and the 12 keys equal and the Regions are equal in most ways...
    But the 12 Tones are not equal over any given chord or Region -I don't agree with that.

    When you play any chord - and sing or play a melody over it- it is obvious that the 12 Tones are not equal - you can not stop wherever you want...

    That book is 12 volumes and very rare and expensive- appreciate the suggestion.

    Probably what I am doing is extending Tonality by allowing tritones to release their energy or restlessness tension/ release by resolving differently beyond 'root progression'.
    The tritone does not have to be in a Dominant Chord and there is no reason a tritone has to resolve to the Root of the destination chord !

    But smooth progressions result just less obvious Cadences...the Melodies and Improv are the same ...new chord = new note choices = same 6 or 7 stop tones but less circle of fifths....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-19-2018 at 10:23 AM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Well I had a big long answer but I am connecting things now with some new Cadences and resolving tritones in other ways but still passing what I call the Pop Test.
    I am not making dissonant unusual sounding Music..and usually the 12 Tone stuff is like they are trying to prove their 'Theory' rather than sounding good or feeling good.

    Arnold Schoenberg - The 12-Tone System - Music - The New York Times

    This Article kind of sums that up.

    I like the 'Regions ' Concept from Schoenberg and the 12 keys equal and the Regions are equal in most ways...
    But the 12 Tones are not equal over any given chord or Region -I don't agree with that.

    When you play any chord - and sing or play a melody over it- it is obvious that the 12 Tones are not equal - you can not stop wherever you want...

    That book is 12 volumes and very rare and expensive- appreciate the suggestion.

    Probably what I am doing is extending Tonality by allowing tritones to release their energy or restlessness tension/ release by resolving differently beyond 'root progression'.
    The tritone does not have to be in a Dominant Chord and there is no reason a tritone has to resolve to the Root of the destination chord !

    But smooth progressions result just less obvious Cadences...the Melodies and Improv are the same ...new chord = new note choices = same 6 or 7 stop tones but less circle of fifths....
    You’re misunderstanding what the Equal Interval System is all about. It is not comparable to 12-tone serialism schemes, although there is a little bit of that sort of thing in Book 11 of the course. The term “equal intervals” has several meanings in the course, both vertical and horizontal. The most fundamental would apply to root movements. The key-centered approach is based on the gravity of the Perfect Fifth root movement, and the treble voices move in familiar/predictable ways. But when other root cycles come into play, things get more challenging, or more revealing, once you understand that the all root cycles are equal. This can be mathematically proven when one looks at the horizontal distance that each voice travels to complete the cycle, i.e., the perfect fifth cycle is “equal” to all the other root cycles. When you understand that, it immediately becomes apparent that you can use the same horizontal voiceleading technique to go FROM any chord, TO any chord (or any collection of vertical intervals).


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  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras View Post
    What you’re looking for, based on your description, is found in the Equal Interval System. As it is a composers course, it isn’t guitar-centric, but that’s a good thing IMO. At the very outset, traditional key-centers are out the window, although the voiceleading system works perfectly in that scheme of things as well.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras View Post
    You’re misunderstanding what the Equal Interval System is all about. It is not comparable to 12-tone serialism schemes, although there is a little bit of that sort of thing in Book 11 of the course. The term “equal intervals” has several meanings in the course, both vertical and horizontal. The most fundamental would apply to root movements. The key-centered approach is based on the gravity of the Perfect Fifth root movement, and the treble voices move in familiar/predictable ways. But when other root cycles come into play, things get more challenging, or more revealing, once you understand that the all root cycles are equal. This can be mathematically proven when one looks at the horizontal distance that each voice travels to complete the cycle, i.e., the perfect fifth cycle is “equal” to all the other root cycles. When you understand that, it immediately becomes apparent that you can use the same horizontal voiceleading technique to go FROM any chord, TO any chord (or any collection of vertical intervals).


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    Thanks. I appreciate your patience Jsaras- you are correct - that does sound like something I should learn !

    Which volume is that in and is it available in a paid PDF ?

    It sounds like a guided intervallic voice leading system -I use my ear for that but I am curious about the Intervals.

    Also -voice leading is a specific case so I wonder why the 'Theory Books ' don't discuss secondary tritone resolutions to the destination chord where the tritone resolves to other tones than the root . These are less dependent upon voice leading because they are 'Functional Expanded Harmony ' (lol) my term .

    I have a term for this and the type of cadences it produces but I don't have an extreme amount of time for 'student mode' lol because it took me a long time to be able to play well enough to 'contribute' let's say .

    I noticed a page that discusses this which is isolated meaning it's part of a 'Course' but it might be Cheryl Bailey because it talks about 'cosmic ' ....it may be a page from her 'Course' that leaked from my Google Search.

    So voice leading and step wise motion is good but these resolutions are actually workable without much voice leading - almost like a ii-V-I being so strong that even voiced terribly it will still function...
    They are weaker Cadences which is cool - for new flavors .

    So I want to use them as I write and play but at least get a 'Concept '.
    These are more for composing - but great for linear substitution because in linear you don't even have to 'catalog' them as long as they resolve to any chord tone or extension ...

    Funny because I am learning shorthand Theory that I missed-but these are a logical extension of Secondary Dominant Theory...and when Professor X writes a Theory Book they copy other Theory Books and cover the same ground over and over .
    This is probably not in the Books.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-20-2018 at 09:39 AM.

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