The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Posts 101 to 124 of 124
  1. #101

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    the suspension was killing me

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    But shouldn't we be arguing that the chord is an E13b6 with the 13 in the bass (no root)?
    I suppose we could argue about that in a separate thread about that particular sound, or a thread about chord naming in general, but I don't see a reason to discuss it here.

  4. #103

    User Info Menu

    It's a suspension bridge

  5. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's a suspension bridge
    Gsus christ indeed.

  6. #105

    User Info Menu

    I don't see a reason to discuss it here.
    But Jake, old beano, that's precisely what we are doing...

  7. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But Jake, old beano, that's precisely what we are doing...
    It could be called a few different things, but it has no relevance to the 7sus4 issue. If you'd like some help trying to name it I could try to provide some, but if your point is that we shouldn't be talking about chord names at all then I'm not sure what I'm responding to.

    Similarly, the equivalence just isn't on point - the sound you bring up is pretty harsh in isolation and not common or part of the general tertial 7 9 11 etc type of vocabulary, , but the sus sound I'm referring to is a somewhat standard accepted part of how anybody post 1960 might look at a lead sheet, especially if the sus lasts for a while.

  8. #107

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It wasn't that much in passing. CB is a slow tune and that chord fills the whole of the first bar.

    But shouldn't we be arguing that the chord is an E13b6 with the 13 in the bass (no root)?

    Well except that the first chord in that video is actually Eb13#11. To be precise, the bass plays the root (Eb) and the piano plays a sort of arpeggiated chord containing 7, 13, 9 , #11 and root (higher up). There is no b6 in it and it's Eb not E.

    The original first chord of Chelsea Bridge was more like Bbmin (maj7) if you hear the first recordings. But since then it often gets played as something like Eb9#11.

  9. #108

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Well except that the first chord in that video is actually Eb13#11. To be precise, the bass plays the root (Eb) and the piano plays a sort of arpeggiated chord containing 7, 13, 9 , #11 and root (higher up). There is no b6 in it and it's Eb not E.

    The original first chord of Chelsea Bridge was more like Bbmin (maj7) if you hear the first recordings. But since then it often gets played as something like Eb9#11.
    That was my own version of the chord. In D, not Db. I already said that.

  10. #109

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That was my own version of the chord. In D, not Db. I already said that.
    ok but how is it E13b6? Ben Webster would have punched the pianist for playing that!

    Did you mean E13b5?

  11. #110

    User Info Menu

    Ok I see from your post 94 that you think there’s a #5 in the chord. I don’t hear that. In fact it sounds awful (to me at any rate) with that interval added.
    Last edited by grahambop; 08-26-2018 at 03:20 PM.

  12. #111

    User Info Menu

    The easiest way to play that Eb7#11 chord on the guitar is x65665. Then just move that shape down 2 frets for the second chord.

    I’ve always loved this tune and have gradually worked up a solo arrangement. It’s not easy though!

  13. #112

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    What about context? Is this a standalone chord so to speak (2+ beats), or is it formed by harmonizing an active bass line (one beat)?
    C G Bb F A D E

    I got a polychord. The closest I get is a chord symbol with a horizontal line.

    Above the line, Fmaj7.

    Below the line Gm/C.

    As I understand it, pianists are likely to play one chord with each hand.

    For guitar, you're going to have to figure out which notes you actually want.

    But, the real answer is that if you care about which octave each note is played in, you might have to write out the notes on a staff, or come up with your own notation (something akin to Csus13 (E on top)).

    If I saw this on the fly, I'd probably play Bb F A E at the 8th fret. I'd hope the bassist got the C on the bottom, and it's too much trouble to play the G. Also, that's a movable voicing -- doesn't use the open E.

    But, on second thought, if I saw this, I'd probably be sitting in a horn band, and the horns would have those notes. So, the question would be, which notes will help? That question may be decided by voice leading issues, requiring full context.

  14. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    C G Bb F A D E

    I got a polychord. The closest I get is a chord symbol with a horizontal line.

    Above the line, Fmaj7.

    Below the line Gm/C.

    As I understand it, pianists are likely to play one chord with each hand.

    For guitar, you're going to have to figure out which notes you actually want.

    But, the real answer is that if you care about which octave each note is played in, you might have to write out the notes on a staff, or come up with your own notation (something akin to Csus13 (E on top)).

    If I saw this on the fly, I'd probably play Bb F A E at the 8th fret. I'd hope the bassist got the C on the bottom, and it's too much trouble to play the G. Also, that's a movable voicing -- doesn't use the open E.

    But, on second thought, if I saw this, I'd probably be sitting in a horn band, and the horns would have those notes. So, the question would be, which notes will help? That question may be decided by voice leading issues, requiring full context.
    Thanks RP, good stuff.

    I guess one thing about the octave/register issue is that it's possible we could assume that somebody who knows how to comp knows there are a limited number of scenarios where it's common to use a b9 interval within a voicing, and in most cases notes are arranged so that it's a half step or M7 interval. But maybe that is assuming too much...

  15. #114

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Thanks RP, good stuff.

    I guess one thing about the octave/register issue is that it's possible we could assume that somebody who knows how to comp knows there are a limited number of scenarios where it's common to use a b9 interval within a voicing, and in most cases notes are arranged so that it's a half step or M7 interval. But maybe that is assuming too much...
    Every now and then I see a chart where the composer has intentionally written in extreme dissonance.

    So, without context, I guess it could be either a b9 or a maj7. Of course, maj7 is the more frequent one.

    Speaking as a sideman, I would rather decode the notes on a stem beforehand, than have the leader stop the band to tell me how to voice the chord.

    And, if, as sometimes happens, the chord is unplayable as written, then I have to hear the whole thing and figure out which notes are going to work best.

    It's an uncommon situation in which the arranger wants to hear a dense, dissonant, 5 or 6 note chord in the guitar. I've seen it in some sophisticated compositions for solo guitar (like by Guinga), but I can't recall seeing it in a band chart.

  16. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    It's an uncommon situation in which the arranger wants to hear a dense, dissonant, 5 or 6 note chord in the guitar. I've seen it in some sophisticated compositions for solo guitar (like by Guinga), but I can't recall seeing it in a band chart.
    In this case keep in mind the sound I'm describing could be played in a 3 note voicing - some order of 4, b7, 3, assuming someone else has the root like in a band context. The 5, 9, and 13 are all optional so the chord doesn't have to be big and dense.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Speaking as a sideman, I would rather decode the notes on a stem beforehand, than have the leader stop the band to tell me how to voice the chord.

    And, if, as sometimes happens, the chord is unplayable as written, then I have to hear the whole thing and figure out which notes are going to work best.

    I get that from a performance perspective for sure. I guess I'm just imagining say lots of students going through transcriptions or compositions over the years that have this sound and always having a clunky name for it.

    I get that when you're hip to it you just say 'sus' and it's no big deal at all that there's a third on top, but, as an example, sometimes I write out arrangements for students and I like to try to name the sounds to show the function, the density of the harmony, etc. Obviously I can just explain the concept behind the sound, if they are new to it, but a symbol/name is nice. Imagine if I everytime I gave somebody a sheet/arrangement with a 7#5b9 I had to say "oh, by the way, that dominant chord? It has a flatted ninth, and ALSO the fifth is sharp, just thought you should know." It's clunky. Language!

  17. #116

    User Info Menu

    x46506


    Post tonal prime form identity

    0 1 2 3 10

    Not so useful on a lead sheet

    C G Bb F A D E
    Asus
    C7sus

    or

    Gm13
    C



  18. #117

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bako


    Asus
    C7sus

    I like this one for those notes.

  19. #118

    User Info Menu

    C7sus4 add3 is what I would call it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  20. #119

    User Info Menu

    I have been resolving a version of this very thing with the 3rd in the bass - surprising it is not more dissonant .

    G11add3 or G7 sus4 add3
    I think are best .


    With the 3rd in the bass

  21. #120

    User Info Menu

    yea... jake... you need to know what your trying to accomplish with the notation and what is the point of the notation.

    For performer.... how to get what you want from performer ... with least amount of complications. Sight reading application

    For the score... what you want compositionally... what the music implies etc... your personal and established goals.

    Personally you sound like you want a voicing.... If I was sight reading.... and I can sight read anything, I sight read on piano also. Anyway... Jazz charts don't usually have that many voicings notated out.... usually more for arrangements etc...

    just notate it out.... if you know what your after... again just notate the chord. If you need a reference guide... most use "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer, from mid 70's. If you check out most of Chuck's Fake Books... Sher music etc... an example is somewhere up front. There are discrepancies, naming of notes.... #5 or b13 etc...
    But is still the standard reference.

    I've always made notes up front and at point in chart.... if you want modal style voicings, quartal, etc... Professional guitarist sight read etc...

  22. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    yea... jake... you need to know what your trying to accomplish with the notation and what is the point of the notation.

    For performer.... how to get what you want from performer ... with least amount of complications. Sight reading application

    For the score... what you want compositionally... what the music implies etc... your personal and established goals.

    Personally you sound like you want a voicing.... If I was sight reading.... and I can sight read anything, I sight read on piano also. Anyway... Jazz charts don't usually have that many voicings notated out.... usually more for arrangements etc...

    just notate it out.... if you know what your after... again just notate the chord. If you need a reference guide... most use "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer, from mid 70's. If you check out most of Chuck's Fake Books... Sher music etc... an example is somewhere up front. There are discrepancies, naming of notes.... #5 or b13 etc...
    But is still the standard reference.

    I've always made notes up front and at point in chart.... if you want modal style voicings, quartal, etc... Professional guitarist sight read etc...
    Hey Reg, thank you - appreciate the response.

    Yeah if it were for a score or performance in 2018 I would just notate a voicing if I knew what the instruments playing it were going to be.

    My interest was more in how we might categorize or organize this sound, because it's so common yet our chord naming conventions don't really account for it.

    It's my hope that in the future we might have a simple short hand for it, but I think 7sus4add3 is the best for now.

    But yes, of course if it were for a performance or recording it would be simplest to notate the voicing I want.

  23. #122

    User Info Menu

    The cool thing with this voicing with the 3rd on the bottom is that it has multiple resolutions which are much smoother than from just a 7 sus 4 chord.

    [I have been playing with it the last few weeks before I saw this thread ]

    So : Bb7 sus4 add 3 or as you have said



    10 - 8 - 6 - 8- 6- 6

    Actually it could also be called
    A7sus4/3 in this instance ,with 3rd on Bottom ..but obviously you will have to make sure with the Keyboard Player to not have the 3rd and 4th in the same Octave =ouch .

    So it might make more sense to say add 10 . As you have said.


    Without even revoicing the destination chord [ just standard Minor 7th ]

    Ebmin7 / Dmin7 / C#min7 /Cmin 7 /Amin7 and many more ...then resolving the suspension you get a whole other group ...maj7ths work also as destinations obviously.

    Playing Standards ...maybe not as useful ...but if you compose ....BAM- an instant EZ way to get a bridge or chorus in a different Key or remote Chordal Region [ chordal Region is a more specific term than a Key- I like the term ] .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-11-2018 at 04:04 PM.

  24. #123

    User Info Menu

    7sus(Add 10) for sure. 100% see it all the time on charts (just to add another tally to the add10 camp)

  25. #124

    User Info Menu

    Csus
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-11-2018 at 11:49 AM.