What might you call a 7sus4 that has a 3rd/10th/17th?

[ragman1]

if you hypothetically had to name this chord:

C G Bb F A E

what would you call it?

PowerTab has a chord identification tool.

This chord, which has all those notes in order,



is named as:

C13
C7add6
FM11/C
Gm13/C
Am7b13b9/C
G13sus2#9/C
G7sus2add6#9/C
G13sus4#9/C
BbM13sus2#11/C
BbM7sus2add6b5/C
G13sus2sus4#9/C
G7sus2sus4add6#9/C

Take your pick :-)

[ragman1]

C9sus(add 3)

more established convention for the word “add” than for “with”

The OP's chord hasn't got a 9 (D).

[Lionelsax]

PowerTab has a chord identification tool.

Are you joking ? You really use tabs ? I don't believe you.

[joe2758]

[QUOTE=ragman1;892839
G7sus2sus4add6#9/C
[/QUOTE]
oohh, thhaaattt one lol

[joe2758]

rags put that in your charts as a jape

[fep]

Men, I don't want to be provocative but you should touch a piano sometimes because it says everything more than a guitar, don't forget you are supposed to play music not just the guitar. On the other hand some would like to kill me because the forum is about the guitar.

Not provacative, condesending.

How do you know we don't touch a piano sometimes?

[Lionelsax]

http://www.godinguitars.com/quartalharmony.pdf

[Lionelsax]

Not provacative, condesending.

How do you know we don't touch a piano sometimes?

I know you don't touch mine because there is a little shape of dust on it.
No... I'm just provocative. Take it easy.

[Jazzstdnt]

My knee jerk response without referring to theory sources:

C13, or
Gmi13/C

[christianm77]

Good use of jape

[christianm77]

I know you don't touch mine because there is a little shape of dust on it.
No... I'm just provocative. Take it easy.

You really are a bit of a pianist.

[bako]

Dave Leibman has some interesting thoughts on naming conventions in his book on chromaticism.
It's been a while so............but worth checking out if you have the book.

One thing he seemed to like were multi tiered polychords

Fma7
Gm
C

Chord over chord over bass note.
Guitarists, we of course have fewer fingers available than pianists.
We tend to have to imply larger, more complex structures, but still that doesn't alter the content of the source material.

[Lionelsax]

You really are a bit of a pianist.

Yes, I've got small hands, so I use both.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Chord symbols are a short hand system but when things gets too convoluted, it is wise to consider just
notating your intention.The slash chord approach is probably your best option within the chord symbol realm.
Slash chords are very good at channeling the player towards an intended voicing.

I like the slash chord spelling as well. Quickest way to decipher on the fly for me. Honestly, I would wonder how many players are "thinking"in terms of slashy m7 for sus chords or 11th chords anyway... More so on guitar maybe, but pianists mostly voice the same, don't they?

[Jazzstdnt]

I'm sorry I may have not been clear. Maybe a shorter way to ask the question is, if you hypothetically had to name this chord:

C G Bb F A E

what would you call it?

What about context? Is this a standalone chord so to speak (2+ beats), or is it formed by harmonizing an active bass line (one beat)?

[Lionelsax]

I like the slash chord spelling as well. Quickest way to decipher on the fly for me. Honestly, I would wonder how many players are "thinking"in terms of slashy m7 for sus chords or 11th chords anyway... More so on guitar maybe, but pianists mostly voice the same, don't they?

Well, the problem is when you know a tune and how it works you don't read the chords anymore, you know where to go, if you add colours, who cares ? If it's functional it works, comping is not looping.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well, the problem is when you know a tune and how it works you don't read the chords anymore, you know where to go, if you add colours, who cares ? If it's functional it works, comping is not looping.

Ok. But that wasn't the original question. It was well set-up as possibly being somewhat hypothetical/theoretical. More teaching studio than bandstand for sure, but that's ok too. "How would you, if you had to" spell it in a very specific way?

[Lionelsax]

Ok. But that wasn't the original question. It was well set-up as possibly being somewhat hypothetical/theoretical. More teaching studio than bandstand for sure, but that's ok too. "How would you, if you had to" spell it in a very specific way?

His thing might be about quartal harmony, the common and simple spelling is there :

http://www.godinguitars.com/quartalharmony.pdf

See page 4.



Where is the planet called Earth ?

That's arrogant... I assume... I hope I'm not wrong !

[JakeAcci]

It's quartal G C F Bb E A
It's everything you want.
It stands for G-7 C7sus4 FMaj9sus4...

The problem is that while the chord may be reduced to a quartal structure, putting on a lead sheet "C quartal" isn't something another musician immediately makes sense of. If you say 'this chord is a rearrangement of a notes stacked in fourths' then I agree, but it's not the answer I'm after in this context.

Perhaps I should have clarified that I'm hoping to find a type of "lead sheet" terminology or symbol that could apply to this common sound.

Yes and CMaj9 is called

- first inversion Emin7addb6
- second inversion G6add11
- third inversion Bminor #5 add11
- fourth inversion D13 sus4 without 5

The way chords are named sometimes is a none-sense.

The purpose is to find a reasonable way to describe the sound in more general harmonic terms, so none of those quite cut it.

Trying another way to phrase my question, maybe I could have said:

"if hypothetically I wanted to find the best possible lead-sheet symbol for a chord that has an 4, a b7, likely a 5th, and the option of a 9th or 13th, but definitely a major 3rd voiced either in the same octave as the 4, or a higher octave than the 4, what would that be? I want the person reading the lead sheet to play something that is a 7sus4 sound, 9 and/or 13 optional, but the 3 is included in a higher (or the same) register as the 4th."

That might seem like a contrived context/scenario, but I don't think of this sound as that uncommon, especially over classic 'modal' tunes or modal vamps.

C13
Fmaj11
Gm13
Bbmaj7sus2add13,b5

just a few naming conventions

Thanks medblues, but I know when a player sees any of those chord symbols they will not play or think of the sound I am referring to.

Men, I don't want to be provocative but you should touch a piano sometimes because it says everything more than a guitar, don't forget you are supposed to play music not just the guitar. On the other hand some would like to kill me because the forum is about the guitar.

I think it's reasonable to state your opinion on the matter without insulting the approaches of others.

C9sus(add 3)

more established convention for the word “add” than for “with”

Yes, duh! Thank you. This is definitely best so far for my purposes. I'm "with" you on what you have "added" to this thread.

I like the slash chord spelling as well. Quickest way to decipher on the fly for me.

Yeah I honestly I find these sus sounds, in the jazz context that we often see them, to be easiest to organize as slash chords. Csus to me= Bbmaj7/C or Gm7/C and I more or less, as a first line of defense, think of the options and voicings I have at my disposal for Bbma7 or Gm7.

I do think either Bbmaj7#11/C or Gm13/C don't make it obvious that the composer wants an F.

What about context? Is this a standalone chord so to speak (2+ beats), or is it formed by harmonizing an active bass line (one beat)?

For discussion purposes, let's say it is a standalone chord held out for a full measure or longer.

[JakeAcci]

I edited the original post in an attempt to be more clear. I'll paste the edit here:


If hypothetically I wanted to find the best possible lead-sheet symbol for a chord that contains:

root

5th

b7

4th/11th

optional: natural 9th and/or natural 13th

and a major third, voiced in a higher register or the same register as the 4th

What could potentially be the best chord symbol to get a player to create this sound?

For discussion purposes:

- This is for a personal organization project, that might down the road lead to teaching materials I am working on
- It would be sustained for a full measure or longer
- I recognize writing out pitches of a specific voicing is a solution, but does not apply in this context
- I recognize some people don't find any use in coming up with 'proper' names for chords, but that's the nature of my curiosity here.

Here is an example of the sound I am referring too, beat 1 of second measure. It's an E13sus4 with a third on top. To me it is still a sus4 sound - the third does not turn it into a dominant sound.


So far I think the most descriptive and practical that has come up here is 7sus4(add3) - or 9sus4(add3) or 13sus4(add3) depending on what's in it.

I was thinking about it more today and I think thing that I want to convey is that the chord really is made from stacked thirds...just starting from the 5th. root...then 5 b7 9 11 13 (1) 3. There's a certain...tertian logic to it, you get my drift? But like I said before, calling this chord, say, Gm13/C, I don't know if it's obvious that the F pitch is essential.

[Lionelsax]

FMaj7 and C7 played at the same time.

F A C E G Bb

Bass C

FMaj7/C7/G

[ragman1]

Are you joking ? You really use tabs ? I don't believe you.

You're right, I've never used tab as a substitute for notation. PowerTab, however, is an extremely useful tool in many ways. In fact, providing tab is the very least of them. The tab stave can be useful occasionally to show fingering in other peoples' guitar transcriptions and you need to place notes on the stave to enter them into a score. But that's all.

[Lionelsax]

Here is an example of the sound I am referring too, beat 1 of second measure.

Sorry I'm editing, I made a lot of mistakes !!!

(D Bmin7 DMaj7 AMaj7add11 F#min11 AMaj7add11 Bb9) on E pedal
Then AMaj9

Pfffff

[ragman1]

JakeAcci -

You keep rephrasing your intial question, or it seems that way. You said 'What is this chord called?' -

C G Bb F A E

I've shown you and you've answered almost every poster except me! Not that I want attention, I'm just saying. Obviously if that hypothetical chord is a C-something, its name would apply to any other note-name.

The thing is you've put the E at the very top, not as a 3rd. There's actually no 3rd because that's what a sus4 chord is.

Also, you've put the sus4 note after the b7 and not before the 5th (G). So the F is not a sus4, it's an 11.

Which means the chord is incorrectly spelled because, if it has an 11 (which probably ought to be #11 anyway) and 13, it ought to have a 9, and it doesn't.

The A's in the right place as the 13 but god knows what the E's supposed to be because it's off the scale.

Fact is, it's a very odd chord indeed and it's no wonder nobody, including yourself, can name it properly. This is what happens when we try to analyse something that's actually just incorrectly put together.

QED!

[JakeAcci]

JakeAcci -

You keep rephrasing your intial question, or it seems that way.

Yes! Because it seems clear from the responses that my phrasing was not clear enough to send the message I intended, and I apologize for that.

I've shown you and you've answered almost every poster except me! Not that I want attention, I'm just saying.

I apologize ragman. I didn't respond to your list because none of them accurately described the chord except potentially Gm13/C which I've touched on a few times. All the others would not be accurate for this context.

Ragman's list:

C13
C7add6
FM11/C
Gm13/C
Am7b13b9/C
G13sus2#9/C
G7sus2add6#9/C
G13sus4#9/C
BbM13sus2#11/C
BbM7sus2add6b5/C
G13sus2sus4#9/C
G7sus2sus4add6#9/C

The thing is you've put the E at the very top, not as a 3rd. There's actually no 3rd because that's what a sus4 chord is.

As Bako said, I know the classical definition of suspended means there is no 3rd, but practically speaking, as I said in a few different comments already, there is often a context where you will hear a 3rd on top of a sus sound. In my opinion, and to my ears, it retains a suspended quality with the third on top and not a dominant quality.

I am personally comfortable calling the note a 17 rather than a 3. The chord is stacked 1 5 b7 9 11 13 15 17, but I recognize that's gibberish to most other people.

Also, you've put the sus4 note after the b7 and not before the 5th (G). So the F is not a sus4, it's an 11.

The order of pitches does not determine the chord spelling in this case. If there is a clear root/bass note, and otherwise the pitches present are 4/11, 5, and b7, the chord will be classified as 7sus4. Order of pitches doesn't change the name in this case.

Which means the chord is incorrectly spelled because, if it has an 11 (which probably ought to be #11 anyway) and 13, it ought to have a 9, and it doesn't.

This sound with a #11 instead of 11/4 would change the discussion entirely. That would be a discussion about a completely different sound.

Practically speaking, chords do not have to have a 9 to be named as 11 or 13. For example, the pitches from low to high, C Bb E A are a common 13th voicing. It is called C13 even though there is no 9 or 11 present.

The A's in the right place as the 13 but god knows what the E's supposed to be because it's off the scale.

It's impossible for it to be off 'the scale' as it was not determined in this discussion that we were limiting the parameters to any specific scale.

Fact is, it's a very odd chord indeed

The sound I am describing is very common, especially in a modal jazz context

This is what happens when we try to analyse something that's actually just incorrectly put together.

I have to admit some frustration here.

I think a lot of the objections and resistance to this topic are simply that folks aren't familiar with this common sound. If you dig a bit deeper into many jazz pianists popular during or after, say the 1960s, you'll hear this, but also I even provided a very consonant audio example - notated as well, in TAB and chord grids, of this concept. I could provide many more if needed...it is a sound I'm pretty familiar with at this point.

If it's not a sound you (meaning, you, the reader, not just ragman) are familiar with, maybe it's more sensible to bow out to give room to the discussion to those who have used this sound and understand my intention?

If the answer you (again meaning 'reader') have is "this is a dissonant sound that is not ever used, so a name is pointless, or you can call it whatever you want" then I understand maybe you believe you're being helpful by guiding me away from trying to categorize something you see no use for, but let's just accept for discussion purposes: I have use for this sound, I have use for categorizing this sound, I have confidence in this and don't feel any need to debate those premises.