9 and 13 on III-7

[rpjazzguitar]

As usual, a lot of this goes over my head, even with examples.

In G major

Imaj 7 is G B D F#

iiim7 is B D F# A

If you play a Bm7 instead of a Gmaj7, what has happened?

If the bassist still plays a G, you've gone from Gmaj7 to Gmaj9. Not that big a deal.

If the bassist plays a B, the audience hears Bm7.

If the soloist plays on Dmixo, as suggested, that's a Gmajor scale -- but maybe you're thinking about different notes on the strong beats? I guess I'm misunderstanding something here.

But, the OP is about 9 and 13 on Bm7, meaning C# and G#. The C# will make the Gmaj7 into a lydian sounding chord and the G# is going sound outside. Either will have to be embedded in a good line or it will sound like a clam. It will be easier to make the b9 and b13 sound consonant.

So, one answer to the OP is, b9 and b13 are easy to make fit the original harmony. 9 and 13 are going to have to be played in a strong line to avoid sounding like you made a mistake.

I don't understand how, if you're in the key of G anyway, and you play a Bm7 instead of a Gmaj7, that thinking Dmixo to hide the dissonance of the C is helpful. It's the same notes as if you just thought G Ionian -- and you adjust the consonance and dissonance of the various choices (like C against Bm7) by ear as you construct your solo.

What am I missing?

[matt.guitarteacher]

As usual, a lot of this goes over my head, even with examples.

In G major

Imaj 7 is G B D F#

iiim7 is B D F# A

If you play a Bm7 instead of a Gmaj7, what has happened?

If the bassist still plays a G, you've gone from Gmaj7 to Gmaj9. Not that big a deal.

If the bassist plays a B, the audience hears Bm7.

If the soloist plays on Dmixo, as suggested, that's a Gmajor scale -- but maybe you're thinking about different notes on the strong beats? I guess I'm misunderstanding something here.

But, the OP is about 9 and 13 on Bm7, meaning C# and G#. The C# will make the Gmaj7 into a lydian sounding chord and the G# is going sound outside. Either will have to be embedded in a good line or it will sound like a clam. It will be easier to make the b9 and b13 sound consonant.

So, one answer to the OP is, b9 and b13 are easy to make fit the original harmony. 9 and 13 are going to have to be played in a strong line to avoid sounding like you made a mistake.

I don't understand how, if you're in the key of G anyway, and you play a Bm7 instead of a Gmaj7, that thinking Dmixo to hide the dissonance of the C is helpful. It's the same notes as if you just thought G Ionian -- and you adjust the consonance and dissonance of the various choices (like C against Bm7) by ear as you construct your solo.

What am I missing?

Bm7 voicings juxtaposed with D9 or F#m7b5 voicings have a softer and more consonant sound to my ears than simply transposing analogous Bm7 voicings from dorian etc.

XX7777
XX7778
XX7777

vs

XX7777
XX7978
XX7777

I like things like:
X X 7 7 7 7
X X 7 9 7 8
X X 12 11 10 12
X X 9 9 10 10
X X 7 9 7 8
X X 7 7 7 7

I don't personally get there as quickly thinking of Bm7/Bm9 type voicings with flatted notes.

[joel paul]

@matt @rpjazzguitar When is it truely a iii-7 chord, and not just Imaj7 in 2nd inversion ex.(Gmaj7/B key of G). Is there even a difference?

[rpjazzguitar]

I tried to think of a tune that does this.

I couldn't think of one, so how about this:

A Foggy Day, key of G, reharm'ed so the second chord is Bm7 instead of G#o7. Next chords are the originals, which is ii V I in G.

To my ear, the notes of G Ionian work best to create an inside sound against the Bm7.

If you raise the C and G, against the Bm7, you're playing key of Amaj, which sounds wrong to me. That said, a great player could make it work, as is true with any note at any time. Or, if the tonal center of the tune was actually changing to A, maybe it would be great.

So, I end up thinking about this situation like Warren Nunes taught it years ago. Two kinds of chords, Type I and Type II.

Type I is tonic-type meaning Gmaj7 Bm7 Dmaj7 and Em7.

Type II is more like dominants: Am7 D7 Em7. I can't recall how he classified F#m7b5.

He treated all Type I's as interchangeable. Same for Type II. He also focused on tonal centers. So, to him, playing D7 against Bm7 was within the tonal center. I guess he might have thought of it as taking liberties with his notion of types, since it's kind of a dominant against a tonic. But, that happens all the time in jazz.

I don't claim to understand all the theory posts, but at least some of it seems to track Warren's ideas.

[christianm77]

I don’t know why jazzers are so allergic to chord inversions lol. Still,’it’s the same thing.

[rpjazzguitar]

G B D F# is Gmaj7

B D F# A is Bm7.

So, one isn't an inversion of the other. One has a G, the other has an A.

If you invert a Gmaj9, you can get a Bm7 add b13

If this is wrong, I hope someone will explain it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I did it and the chord sequence sounded okay to me. Opinions may differ.

Perhaps I should have made it clear that these are chords pertaining to a discussion about soloing.

So the fact that the melody of AFD conflicts is beside the point. In fact, I probably shouldn't have mentioned AFD, but that's where I got the idea.

[christianm77]

Bm7 and Gmaj9 are basically the same thing.

In a lot of tunes I find the iii a bit clumsy, and think the melody fits the I/iii better. The real book often gives iii when functionally it could be I/iii.

Basically if you go back in the history you see a lot more inversions. I think jazz musicians have moved to seeing everything in root position and this where the modes/avoid note thing stems from as well.

[christianm77]

Bm7 and Gmaj9 are basically the same thing.

In a lot of tunes I find the iii a bit clumsy, and think the melody fits the I/iii better. The real book often gives iii when functionally it could be I/iii.

Basically if you go back in the history you see a lot more inversions. I think jazz musicians have moved to seeing everything in root position and this where the modes/avoid note thing stems from as well.

By the way in Barry land we see it differently from this again - Bm7 is D6, and D6 is one option for putting on G6....
Anyway

[Vladan]

replacing E7b9 (G#dim) with Bm7 is not a reharm. it's a reduction (replacing VI7 with a more "pedestrian" sub for I) and not in a good way. it does strip the tune of it's characteristics, and yes the melody is important. we don't solo in a vaccum.

Unless it were Wes, or Bird who did it, then we say it's genius.

[Vladan]

hey vladan, i'm curious to hear your example. which recording?

Of course, I will not bother to look up for recording, but say I was to, what exactly would you want me to provide? An example of Wes, or Bird, playing in their solos notes that are 1/2 step away from original melody, or playing notes of IIIm7 over, or in place of VI7?
Should it be recording of this particular song ...?

[christianm77]

I think most competent jazz musicians would avoid using Bm7 as the second chord. There’s a really good reason for this which has nothing todo with inversions etc.

Hopefully djg won’t mind too much of I let the cat out of the bag - the melody. Bm7 clashes with the tune.

So that limits your options. As the melody goes to F in the key of G, your standard options would be G7 OR Bm7b5 (which is also an inversion of G9) going to E7b9 in this case the latter is obviously more familiar choice because of the root movement of the progression.

There are other options that are less obvious too...

I haven’t tried it, but I’m thinking biii wouldn’t work very well here.

[christianm77]

Bb7 is fine, obviously.

Good jazz musicians harmonise the melody. AFAIK

[bako]

Bb7 is fine, obviously.

Good jazz musicians harmonise the melody. AFAIK

Art Tatum, (who is a pretty decent jazz musician), would also at times adjust the melody
to accommodate whatever harmonic sequence he was playing.

[Reg]

Yea anything will work... but When you start playing.... getting past the 1st time through the tune... I mean, the tune has been beat into the ground.... right. anyway... what is the V of I as compared to what is the V of III.

My point... eventually your going to start hearing and playing chord patterns. Just like when you solo... you don't just playing the same melody.... over and ever. You don't play the same basic changes... over and over.

So when you use a sub as compared to an inversion.... all the other BS you play becomes different.

Inversions.... are vanilla. Right your not changing the reference.... your choosing to play a different arrangement of the notes.... wait.... WITH THE SAME HARMONIC REFERENCE. When you start expanding the changes.... like when you solo.... you change the target or REFERENCE.
It's not so much the B-7 chord.... as compared to the Gma7..... it's how you approach, create musical relationships with... and how you develop them.

I get it, Many of you don't get past that vanilla level of playing and there;s is nothing wrong with that..... But there is nothing wrong with actually playing in a jazz style and creating musical relationships and interacting with the music and the musicians you might perform with.

And it's not going to happen without starting to expand your understandings and ears to what's possible.

Gmaj7 and B-7 can be basically the same thing..... What is that thing, Function. Harmonic function right. They both imply Tonic Function in the Key of Gmaj.... But there are many options of the two chords also having different Functions and relationships, which can open many doors for performing.

[Vladan]

Something called Sucuri Firewall is preventing me from posting an answer. I'll try again in an minute.

Let's see if I can edit this dummy post ...

Yes, but won't let my answer, probably too many links in it, let's try it this way ...

i'm slightly puzzled you said "bird did it" and now you're asking me what you meant by "it"? .

Of course, I never said that and there is unedited post of mine, for everybody to see what I acrually have said, here:
9 and 13 on III-7

[Vladan]

...OK, good .... now part 2.

what i meant:

there is a specific group of tunes that at one place have a b7 in the melody. like a foggy day, it could happen to you, deep purple, easy living and many more. the b7 is usually harmonised with some variant of VI7 chord (in G: G#dim, E7b9). replacing it with a plain III chord is usually not a good idea. so i was curious whether you had some example of bird making it work.

My coment came after rpjazzguitar explained he was talking about soloing and chord subs in that context. Your answer to that post was what I quoted and to what I was responding. You are bringing the issue back to harmonizing original melody, which is really not a good way to carry on this discussion because one who started it already said it was about something else.

However, even if we bring it back to harmonizing original melody, what I said is still applicable. I say (the meaning of that post you have wrongly quoted is: ), if there was an example of Bird, or Wes harmonizing that note, you say it is b7, with IIIm7 chord, we'd say it was genious, but when rpjazzguitar or other noname suggest such a thing (although he did not suggest it, but for the sake of discussion) he gets an: "You can not do that!", like here, for example: 9 and 13 on III-7

[rpjazzguitar]

replacing E7b9 (G#dim) with Bm7 is not a reharm. it's a reduction (replacing VI7 with a more "pedestrian" sub for I) and not in a good way. it does strip the tune of it's characteristics, and yes the melody is important. we don't solo in a vaccum.

Just curious, where does the term "reduction" come from? Is it in common usage?

[rpjazzguitar]

Just to restate -- I was trying to think of a tune that went from Gmaj7 to Bm7 in order to have a context to discuss the C# and G# against Bm7 -- which was partly what the OP addressed. I couldn't think of one at that moment. What I should have done is merely suggested a chord sequence, Gmaj7 Bm7 Am7 D7 and not brought AFD into it (I got to that point by thinking of AFD's chords and wasn't, right then, thinking about the melody of AFD -- which is still entirely separate from the point I was trying to make).

[christianm77]

Art Tatum, (who is a pretty decent jazz musician), would also at times adjust the melody
to accommodate whatever harmonic sequence he was playing.

Yeah, I think that’s more like a lawyer’s answer than anything to do with this particular song or thread. Probably in response or the slightly brusque and baby addled wording of my post.

You can change a few notes in the bridge or later on in the melody, but the first two notes of a tune? I’d have to hear it, I couldn’t do it, you?

Also. I’m pretty certain Art Tatum could have harmonised a melody preserving the tune if he wanted to.

(as they say about Bach in harmony classes, ‘he is allowed you are not.’ Another obvious exception to the honour the melody principle is John Coltrane.)

For soloing you could change the upper structure of the changes if you like. Depends on many factors. A lot of modern players would not like to do this. Bop musicians were a lot more fast and loose.

[christianm77]

Just to restate -- I was trying to think of a tune that went from Gmaj7 to Bm7 in order to have a context to discuss the C# and G# against Bm7 -- which was partly what the OP addressed. I couldn't think of one at that moment. What I should have done is merely suggested a chord sequence, Gmaj7 Bm7 Am7 D7 and not brought AFD into it (I got to that point by thinking of AFD's chords and wasn't, right then, thinking about the melody of AFD -- which is still entirely separate from the point I was trying to make).

A better choice would have been East of the sun, perhaps?

Sorry if I came across a bit dismissive earlier. I’m really realising the limitation of thinking too much from harmonic progressions rather than always having the melody first and foremost in one’s mind. In a sense it makes no sense to talk about AFD going from Gmaj7 to Bm7, because that's not what it does. That's not the song.

And I think melodies and their relationship to changes have a lot to teach us about this issue.
I don’t see them as separate at all, at least when talking about putting 9s and 13s on a iii chord.

[Lionelsax]

See the head of Lady Bird on AbMaj7 it doesn't sound so bad.