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That’s what it is globally as the song is really in Dm. But locally it is also iii in Bb
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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08-02-2018 03:25 AM
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It’s on the Berklee book Chord Scale Theory. Anyway not important for the purposes of this thread. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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I was responding more to general conversation than exactly to the OP. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
I wasn't speaking in terms of a single sustaining chord.
I tend to think that the harmonic implications of a melody has a chordal counterpart.
The same info can be presented in different ways.
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I don't see that, please explain. Song is in D minor, starts and ends on the I chord. Seems straightforward to me... Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Is that a Berklee Press book or just former Berklee instructor's book?
BTW - it's also in Mark Levine's book, front and center. (the "more hip" jazz theory book?)
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The OP was called joel paul. He seems to have disappeared.
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Well, there's nothing new with that.
He was on the right track all along anyway.
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It moves into Bb from bar two and then goes around to the IV chord just to make it unambiguous. He then modulates very smoothly back into Dm. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
The song begins and ends in Dm.
It’s not so much of a big deal loads of tunes are basically in one key but have a detour via a closely related key most often subdominant.
Often it’s a little ambiguous but in this case I feel it makes sense to think of those chords in Bb. I suppose you could see the Ebmaj7 as a Neapolitan chord.
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Played around with this today for a minute while looking at something else.
I find that viim7b5 voicings and arps are pretty easily heard as "extensions" of iii-7, when played over a iii-7 vamp. Not as overtly functional sounding as other subs to my ear. Softens the b9 tension for sure.
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III - is just that.... Avoid note rules are training wheels, when you don't quite have a handle on harmony, arranging etc... So you won't make obvious mistakes.
If your standing still.... then it becomes an arrangement or how notes are arranges etc... the spacing and interval thing.
But who stands still? So if your using Function for your organizational reference, maj/min or Ionian guidelines.... but vanilla gets old quick. So generally Modal concepts come into play. Expanded Functional organization. using characteristic notes, or other types of melodic and harmonic licks that help imply movement or sustain.
Personally... I like to use III as an extension for I.... Key of G... I'll use the sound of Dmixo to help with voicing issues of B-7 or III-7
So keeping is simple... Gmaj7..../ A-7 D7 / Gmaj7.... to expand that chord pattern... I'll use III-7 for diatonic sub of Ima7
so Gmaj7 becomes B-7.
Now create a pattern....
//Gmaj69 .../ A-9 D7#9b13../ Gma69.../ G-7 C13 /
B-7.../ G-7 C13.. / B-7b9 11 ../ A-7 D7#9//
I use Dmixo sound to help voice the B-7b9 11. I think and hear D7 as an extended or expanded Diatonic sub for B-7 (III-). I'm using modal functional concepts....
3 X 2 2 3 3 .. Gma69
5 X 5 5 5 7 ..A-9
X 5 4 5 6 6 ..D7#9b13
X 10 9 9 10 10 ..G69
X 10 8 10 11 X G-7
8 X 8 9 10 X X ...C13
7 X 7 7 7 7 ...B-7
X 10 8 10 10 10 ..G-9
8 X 8 9 10 10 ..C13
(7) X 10 9 7 10 ..B-7b9 11
5 X 5 5 5 5 ....A-7
X 5 4 5 6 6 ...D7#9b13
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Hey reg, what are you thinking of/ pulling from - for G-7 C13 / ? Originally Posted by Reg
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Graf & Nettles.... Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Amazon say
'Jazz harmony, as taught at the Berklee College of Music is based on the so called Chord Scale Theory. This method - further developed - is now available as a comprehensive textbook for the first time. Emerged from practice and designed for practical use, it provides theoretical knowledge necessary for improvisation, composing, and arranging.'
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Hey Matt.... I'm creating modal dominant movement to B-. Temp tonic tonal target, III- Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
C is the modal characteristic note of Bmin functioning as tonic tonal target of III-
G-7 C7 is common practice chord pattern... II V
C7 also has sub V7 characteristicsHhas multiple access to MM and Blue notes.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt 
Is that a Berklee Press book or just former Berklee instructor's book?
BTW - it's also in Mark Levine's book, front and center. (the "more hip" jazz theory book?)
Graf & Nettles....
Amazon say
'Jazz harmony, as taught at the Berklee College of Music is based on the so called Chord Scale Theory. This method - further developed - is now available as a comprehensive textbook for the first time. Emerged from practice and designed for practical use, it provides theoretical knowledge necessary for improvisation, composing, and arranging.'
Marks jazz theory book is generally about what the music common practice is... Jazz common practice more for players, how to use. The book has most of the info.
Berklee is more about the... why and how of the musical organization based on Jazz common practice. The books are designed to be used in the class room.... there is much more.
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Okay thanks. So you use characteristic pitch to create modal cadences if I remember correctly? Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey Matt,
Yes that is one common practice.... generally chords with the characteristic pitch have movement to chords without the CP. It works... but I generally like to reinforce....
I also used a lead line in that chord example.... if I was actually playing that example.... I would develop lead lines that also create melodic movement towards the III- chord, probable push more MM version of G-7 to C7,
G-9 to C9#11... and if I wanted to include the b9 in the B- voicing.... I would use D mixo voicings to help camouflage the dissonance.
That's basically the reason behind avoid notes.... they generally create too much dissonance to a reference.
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Sure, I’m talking about the basic classification of an avoid note, the stuff about the semitones. It is a bit simplified. Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Is that a Berklee Press book or just former Berklee instructor's book?
BTW - it's also in Mark Levine's book, front and center. (the "more hip" jazz theory book?)
Graf & Nettles....
Amazon say
'Jazz harmony, as taught at the Berklee College of Music is based on the so called Chord Scale Theory. This method - further developed - is now available as a comprehensive textbook for the first time. Emerged from practice and designed for practical use, it provides theoretical knowledge necessary for improvisation, composing, and arranging.'
Marks jazz theory book is generally about what the music common practice is... Jazz common practice more for players, how to use. The book has most of the info.
Berklee is more about the... why and how of the musical organization based on Jazz common practice. The books are designed to be used in the class room.... there is much more.
Reg and I are in agreement I think. It’s just training wheels. The fact that I teach and think in a completely different way doesn’t alter the fact that I agree with your perceptions either.
‘Use your lugs’ as Dave Cliff would say.
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Originally Posted by joel paul
you dont need all the BS play iii minor7 only.
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You both misread me. My simple point is that chord scale theory and avoid notes exist outside Berklee materials and teaching. Levine's book starts off with "Chord Scale Theory" and discusses avoid notes, etc. Deal with it. Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Is that a Berklee Press book or just former Berklee instructor's book?
BTW - it's also in Mark Levine's book, front and center. (the "more hip" jazz theory book?)
Graf & Nettles....
Amazon say
'Jazz harmony, as taught at the Berklee College of Music is based on the so called Chord Scale Theory. This method - further developed - is now available as a comprehensive textbook for the first time. Emerged from practice and designed for practical use, it provides theoretical knowledge necessary for improvisation, composing, and arranging.'
Marks jazz theory book is generally about what the music common practice is... Jazz common practice more for players, how to use. The book has most of the info.
Berklee is more about the... why and how of the musical organization based on Jazz common practice. The books are designed to be used in the class room.... there is much more.
I'm also well aware of what a college textbook is. You're not the only grad school veteran here, Reg. 4.00 for me in business and engineering.
More to the point, did you take the OP as a person who possesses knowledge beyond that of a collegiate music major with regards to harmony and dissonance, etc? If so, why would that be? I appreciated your advanced post, but who is it for?
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"Obvious mistakes" like what for instance? Would you please elaborate for those who are less familiar? Much appreciated. Originally Posted by Reg
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Yes we already covered III-7 in major as a sub for I in major. And that's Sub, not extension, BTW. Employing III-7 in major as a substitute for IMaj7 in major includes tension, or extension, 9. That's a more articulate and specific way of saying it. Originally Posted by Reg
The rest of what you are saying here is not at all clear. Can you elaborate using music theory terms that are consistent with broadly used public domain texts and treatises?
As always, much appreciated.
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Yea.... I'm not that smart... at best mid level intelligence. I was trying to help general understanding of Avoid notes. And how Mark used avoid notes in his book as compared to Berklee. As I remember, Mark said "handle with Care". which is generally about voicing. That would be one of the obvious mistakes, the other is how the avoid note is used.... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. One is very mechanical... maybe even structurally dealing with basic sound thing. The other... maybe more from the business direction.... how one can market their usage of avoid notes.
Anyway wasn't meant to be directed at Jazzstdnt, sorry. I didn't take joel paul as anyone.... his post seem more like statements and never much of interaction etc... But the question of what to use with III-7 is great question and general discussion about how Jazz harmony works.
Which leads to how one can approach III-7.... So as was said... using III-7 as a sub for Imaj is what? What type of Sub. ... Functional sub.
Generally meaning using traditional Tonic, subdominant and dominant labels . That organization can be expanded beyond simple Diatonic functional Subs. (another more difficult discussion).
The difference between using as "Sub" as compared to "Extension" or "Expanded" application is generally about the reference for creating relationships and developing them.
Personally if I use III-7 as a sub for Imaj7.... the 7th degree of III-7 is not an extension, tension... or 9th of Imaj7. When I use a Sub... the sub becomes the Reference.... The III-7 is now the tonal target for labels and relationships as compared to being expanded or an extension of the Imaj chord., where the basic reference is still the I chord.
There is no right or wrong etc.... but the results of developments of relationships are different. Simple version.... different notes and intervals using different musical organization with different resulting movements.
My reference of using tonal reference of "D" mixolydian for voicing, (avoid notes and contrapuntal guidelines), is from D7 being an extension or expanded version of Functional subs usage. D7 being up a diatonic 3rd from B-7 in key of "G". And G7 or G mixo. already has existing common practice jazz usage, both with voicings and sounds. Our ears are already trained to be able to hear. It helps with the general dissonance of using B- or III-.
When I play jazz... I don't play basic 7th chords or simple what's notated. I'm aware of what can be implied by common chord progression with typical melodies. Specific notes in relationships with chords and notes that connect those targets.... melody and changes.
When one solos.... do they simply play melody notes and chord tones. Even if you simply call other notes embellishments. Harmony is implied... harmony can also be embellished. I simple choose not to call everything embellishments, melodic or harmonic.
But there is nothing wrong with simply playing III-7.... but don't get upset if someone calls your approach vanilla.
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At some point I may revisit Levine, but TBH, I don't think or teach that way. It's probably good to be familiar with one of the popular texts. I don't have a huge amount of time to check out theoretical sources TBH. Not when there's the definitive information out there on the records themselves. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
It's a good book for what it is, and Levine is obviously a great musician and engaging writer.
Not that it's relevant to your post or the OP, but it's pretty irrelevant to what I do as a teacher. I have a set of tools that seem to work well. Generally the last thing any of my students need is more theory most of them already own a ton of books. They just need to shed the basics - I mean forget melodic minor modes, extensions and avoid notes, can you play 1 3 5 on everything?
My more advanced students already know CST stuff and seek me out to learn language. Which is nice, because that's what I've focussed on.
Anyway, are you saying that CST didn't originate with Berklee?
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Ever go through any of the early arranger composer books like Russell Garcia. guys who composed and arranged for early TV and film. There is another film book from the 60's .... I'll remember, anyway most of them always organized ...
1) Rhythm... most important element
2) Melody
3) Harmony and voicing
4) Timbre, and color or Orchestration
Anyway, very mechanical with traditional.... composition and arranging. Simple and most would label jazz as experimental, progressive concepts.
Parallel or symmetric harmony, or even contrapuntal guidelines. Construction of new scales and chords.... modal organization etc... basically what most jazz musicians use all the time. My first use of avoid notes was in 60's from jazz players who basically use tension release. Later at Berklee in early 70's more of a film and jazz composition reference.... CST and AN were part of harmony,composition and arranging classes. in the 70's...
I don't believe Marks reference to CST is more than basic general organization of scales and chords. I believe Mark studied with Herb Pomeroy early, but his books really doesn't get into CST that much. Most of his education is from playing with many of the great musicians and bands. He went to Boston U school of music. graduated in 60. I've played gigs with Mark.... great player and his tune are very cool... fun to play.
Personally I meet very few musicians who have an understanding of CST beyond basic scale to chord relationships, vanilla versions.
Yea Christian I generally only bring up BS.... because I believe it helps non advanced players or what ever we call musicians who don't have playing jazz together.... beginners ... amateurs... musicians who don't know or can't play the language.... without memorizing etc...anyway I believe it helps to know where your trying to get... the end goal. If there is even one.
I don't believe the approach of just play B-7 really helps. Not bad.... but there is more. And that approach keeps piling up... do this, do that etc... memorize a million examples as compared ... memorize a few organized approaches and apply them to different and new contexts. If you understand how and why an approach can work, it helps understand the musical mechanics which are applied to new and different contexts.
1 + 1 is 2
2 + 1 is 3
3 + 1 is 4
etc... memorize all possibilities or understand that adding 1 to any number increases it by 1. I know lousy analogy,
- when you use different 9ths and 13th on III-7 you are implying different harmonic organization. There are options.
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Hey guys, forgive my absenteeism. There was a major event in my life that I had to take care of. I will be reviewing and analysing all of your replies soon. Much love - Joel.
P.S @ragman - I really dig that blues scale over the I ii iii IV ragman. Another case of "Theory says no, but ears say yes".
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