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Joel...Mark's book is just that... more of an open your ears.... there is more than Maj/Min functional harmony with Aeolian working with Ionuan functional organization...
Originally Posted by joel paul
Most of the gigs I use to play with Mark were in latin style, and we did tend to use Dorian as default Min. of course with different functional organization than Aeolian etc...
And I agreeeeee...hazardous notes, I like that.... anyway I tend to use Blue note organization with notes like Maj7 on Doms etc... they feel right because you set them up harmonically... they have the perception of feeling right.
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07-19-2018 11:59 AM
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It's not that simple. Again, I have no interest in this theory for its own sake, it has to relate to musical lines. If it helps you to view actual music this way, do it the way that makes sense to you. Originally Posted by joel paul
But, if this is a prescriptive grammar of music - can't see how it helps. 'Oh this is a dodgy note, but sometimes you can use it.' What? How does that help? Don't see the point myself. Also, I trust my ears to be able to tell the difference between sounds, and if I can't it's up to me to train them.
Anyway, if you are a great player, you can think about music any way you like, if it helps. If you are not a great player, sometimes a radically different perspective can help move things forward.
Yeah, I could tell from the way you think that you are probably more into the post-fusion music? In some ways CST makes more sense for that music because so much of it is 'non-functional.'theres one thing i dont agree with mark levine : He says to play dorian on all min7 chords.
I dont agree with that. For me, min7 is (dorian/aolian/phrygian).
PS. this forum needs holdsworth icons, and gambale icons. #holdsworthicons #jazzforumrevolution
For instance Evan Marien talked to Adam Neely about playing Holdsworth's music he points out that really the sounds are usually resolved - major or minor with a twist (sus for instance, or maj7#5). Dominants are rare... That's because dominants kind of demand resolution and you lose that 'floating quality.' Bebop is about the dominants resolving, the post-modal stuff is about the sound of the present chord a bit more...
BUT... All the fusion players I like are coming out of bop language and that sense of swing and resolution (I used to think Scott Henderson was an exception, but he absolutely isn't.)
Holdsworth? Love the cat, heard him play live a couple of times. His death cut me up just as much as Jim Hall's. Poster child for 'dangerous notes.' I've been looking into Allan's stuff a lot lately. Great constructor of lines. I know everyone goes crazy for the crazy legato speed stuff, but Allan's medium tempo playing is unique. No-one does that. (And his occasional work on standards is interesting, because it shows how much he owed to bop... I've been checking him out on How Deep is the Ocean for instance...)
To be honest, if more of the post-Holdsworth fusion players did that kind of stuff, I might be inclined to listen to them.
Anyway, does Levine actually say that? I haven't properly read the Jazz Theory Book in about 20 years... Dorian (or melodic minor) is a good choice for ii and vi because natural 6th is a great colour tone on those chords. Again, you can hear Django playing that shit, these sounds have been around in jazz long before anyone thought up Chord Scale Theory. On iii it's problematic as that chord is usually a sub for I - and there's often a b6 in the melody. Does Levine say phrygian for this? Can't remember.
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What im saying is more like "over this particular chord quality, this is a dodgy note, socan't see how it helps. 'Oh this is a dodgy note, but sometimes you can use it.' What? How does that help?
dont sustain it for more than two beats, play it as a passing note. This applies more to
min7 and maj7 chords, where dissonance is less tolerated. As for maj7 over dom7 chords, If
its going home (V7--->I or bII7---->I), I dont have a problem with this note, sustain it
for the whole duration of the chord if you want. However, If its not going home, I would
only play maj7 as a passing note. I wouldnt land on it.
On iii it's problematic as that chord is usually a sub for I - and there's often a b6 in the melody. Does Levine say phrygian for this? Can't remember.
Mr levine says dorian on all min7 chords, regardless of its function (II III IV VI etc.)
I dont agree with this. For me, min7--->(dorian,aolian,phrygian). The only difference between dorian,aolian,phrygian is the 9 and 13. 5/7 common tones, no big deal. Mr levine wont notice. So on min7, I go with the arpeggio (1 b3 5 b7), and I use my ears for the spicy notes ( ~9 11 ~13).
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Nothing wrong with any of that, but if a learning improviser is at risk of playing any of these notes without intention, chord scale theory is the last thong they need to be thinking about.
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You can theoretically analyze a line and decide which notes were left out or avoided I guess. But I don't think that really give you insight into what the player is thinking as much. The player is probably much more focused on the "positive space"
Than the negative space ", "at least in terms of no choice. the "left out notes" happen by default, as a result of the notes which they DO play.
Check out Bert Ligon's jazz theory resources volume 1 , if you want to analyze jazz lines more in step with how players traditionally have thought about the music throughout its history. Upper and lower neighbor tones are a fundamental targeting concept and jazz . You need to know your way around those at some point.
They teach you to truly "handle " things like the 4 on a dominant, not by "avoiding" it or handling with care - but by USING it to more strongly imply 3. This is not a SMALL distinction or semantics . It's very important.
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And just listen to the head on Freddie Freeloader or So What. The tensions are sometimes longer than the release notes, and they are mostly ACCENTED - ON the downbeat , really leaned on hard. The thing is, you can do the same thing with 4 - 3 resolutions etc. Breaks every rule, but it works , simply because it's addressing the real "rule " .
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Stella by starlight
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Yeah. My favorite example is the opening of the head to "I got it bad". Breaks the downbeat rules too. But again, that's the thing : they aren't restrictive rules as much as maybe rules for CREATING good lines etc. Originally Posted by christianm77
Sometimes feels like maybe we're refashioning PRESCRIPTIVE guidelines into RESTRICTIVE rules.
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On iii it's problematic as that chord is usually a sub for I
thats something thats been bothering me for a while now. When is is it truely a III chord,
and not just a I chord in 2nd inversion. Is there even a difference?
Ex. key of c : Emin7 or Cmaj7/E .
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I think it is if the chord has been tonicised for example with a minor ii V. Originally Posted by joel paul
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Well that’s why I regard the Levine book as pretty useless as a book for those learning to get it together as jazz improvisers. Perhaps I am too harsh, there’s probably some stuff in there, but in the 20 or so years since I read it I haven’t felt any need to revisit it. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
All these examples are examples of appoggiaturas, or leaning notes. It’s that simple.
They resolve downward by step in the expected way. There’s nothing controversial or odd about them, they’ve been used in music for hundreds of years to the point where they are cliche. Try a lower neighbour as well - b3 to 3.... think Mozart.
The problem is people - esp guitarists - don’t have any background in conventional harmony. They think ‘what do I play over this chord.’ I hear a lot of otherwise accomplished guitar players who sound like this. It’s he first thing they have to straighten out when they go to jazz college. I’ve had to get undergrad level guitarists to do this.....
If you want to play jazz well or any kind of harmonic music - imo - You should express chords (could be the originals or related chords) or better still moving harmony, in your line. If you do this considerations of what note fits over what chord becomes moot - you take control of setting up and resolving dissonance.Last edited by christianm77; 07-20-2018 at 12:45 PM.
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Then cst can slot in as a development of this basic structure
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Anyway that’s all way too much verbiage from me. I think any student of the music should concern themselves with checking out the music and seeing what it does. Not much more to say than that....
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@christian
|F#-7b5 B7|Emin7 ------|Cmaj7--------|Cminmaj7 Ebminmaj7|
|A-7b5 D7 |Gmin7 |Ebmaj7 |Ab7#11------------|
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Wut?
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