Transcription

[WILSON 1]

I thought I would make a short vid on how I've been working recently to acquire a transcription of a solo, and get some opinions here about this rather time consuming effort.

It has taken me three weeks since first hearing this solo to arriving at a work method and successfully transcribe about 16 bars (of 32 total).

There are two software programs in play...Transcribe! and MuseScore 2.2 that I won't get into either here except to say that both, IMHO, are necessary to achieve these results that I'm looking for.

For those of you who can "hear" 16th rests...well, my hat is off to you, I have to resort to this type of method.

I'm really just looking for a reasonable chart to help recall this piece in the future and to study the theory involved and perhaps pick up some phrasing...but I was wondering if the amount of effort to get this far is worth it.

I would be interested in opinions on how others acquire, use and weigh the value of transcribing.

I will post the entire song and what I've gotten from the transcription so far if there is any interest.

Thanks friends

[fep]

Cool.

I use the same software but never lined them up like that to listen to them together.

[pauln]

...get some opinions here about this rather time consuming effort.

...three weeks

...16 bars

...but I was wondering if the amount of effort to get this far is worth it.

I would be interested in opinions on how others acquire, use and weigh the value of transcribing.

At first glance it does look kind of like a possible waste of time.
Sixteen bars in three weeks is three beats per day... !

But to me, transcription means you grasp it, you have internalized it, and you can play it suitably for performance. What I'm suggesting is that the evaluation of your methodology should not be how long it took to develop it or how quickly it captures the song, but its effect on how quickly you capture the song.

[christianm77]

Now imagine what it was like back in the days of record turntables...

[christianm77]

Transcription is slow at first, but gets easier. You are working a muscle.

A lot of it is learning to hear whole phrases and musical objects rather than puzzling out individual notes and rhythms. It's a bit like learning to read music in this.

[mr. beaumont]

As far as transcription goes, my two tips would be:

Learn to sing it, even if it's just "rhythmically." Get an idea of HOW MANY notes you're looking for.

And to that end, get a piece of staff paper and draw bar lines and just get an idea of how many notes per bar and basic rhtyhms before you even worry about pitch. Doesn't even need to be exact, just know what starts and what ends where.

[matt.guitarteacher]

If you're already using something like muse score, definitely check out sound slice. You can basically transcribe YouTube videos with its notation editor in the same window , slow down , etc. synced to waveforms etc. etc. Really nice technology. all free online. No software download.

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[voxss]

a work in progress....very nice work...

[WILSON 1]

At first glance it does look kind of like a possible waste of time.
Sixteen bars in three weeks is three beats per day... !

But to me, transcription means you grasp it, you have internalized it, and you can play it suitably for performance. What I'm suggesting is that the evaluation of your methodology should not be how long it took to develop it or how quickly it captures the song, but its effect on how quickly you capture the song.

Yes, thanks pauln

And thanks to all. I understand and realize that the effort is well worth it and that there isn't much sense in moving on to a dozen other solos if one hasn't "gleaned" all that may be available from the one right in front of you.

Perhaps I'll become more sensitive to 16th rests and move a lot faster when I go to another solo.

Here is the track with the solo @ 2:42

Thanks again for listening.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I thought I would make a short vid on how I've been working recently to acquire a transcription of a solo, and get some opinions here about this rather time consuming effort.

It has taken me three weeks since first hearing this solo to arriving at a work method and successfully transcribe about 16 bars (of 32 total).

There are two software programs in play...Transcribe! and MuseScore 2.2 that I won't get into either here except to say that both, IMHO, are necessary to achieve these results that I'm looking for.

For those of you who can "hear" 16th rests...well, my hat is off to you, I have to resort to this type of method.

I'm really just looking for a reasonable chart to help recall this piece in the future and to study the theory involved and perhaps pick up some phrasing...but I was wondering if the amount of effort to get this far is worth it.

I would be interested in opinions on how others acquire, use and weigh the value of transcribing.

I will post the entire song and what I've gotten from the transcription so far if there is any interest.

Thanks friends

Hey Wilson, rereading this, it occurs to me that maybe you're using notation software to figure out the rhythms for the solo?

If this is the case, I would actually advise against that. Maybe get a teacher or other musician on troublespots rhythmically . Honestly, I think people HERE would enjoy solving these kind of problems . People always seem interested.

Anyway, with swing and triplets , I think it's important to notate things the way they were actually originally "felt" by the player , and not just approximated mathematically using notation software. Those dotted quarter rhythms above are more like triplets. I would have a much more difficult time at reading that rhythm the way you have it notated, and would probably never arrive at the feel of the original reading about. More than likely, once figured out, a musician would say "Oh, they're triplets".

Anyway, it's very difficult to transcribe rhythms you can't basically play and read. for most verse , that's definitely the case more so with swing, 12/8 feels, or triplets. If you want to transcribe swing syncopation better, it's worth spending a little time reading and playing the triplet rhythms from Louis Bellson's 4/4 or similar drum books. The good news is that the rhythms you're talking about are actually simpler when approached that way.

I think that kind of work will better address what I think you were originally asking about with regard to " wasted time". Learning to read and play rhythms in this time base first is kind of "sharpening the saw", as opposed to just working harder. With a reasonable amount of short-term work, it will save you a lot of time long-term and improve your understanding of the music.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's also the kind of separate conversation , as to whether it's super important that rhythms be written down in a really precise way in the beginning anyway....

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[Jack E Blue]

Does Transcribe! offer any advantages over simply pulling a sound file into Reaper? In Reaper I can loop and slow it down easily. There's also a stock pitch shifter plugin for adjusting pitch, although I've never used it. I've been thinking about buying Transcribe! and want to make sure I'm not spending money on something that I can already do with my DAW.

[WILSON 1]

Hey Wilson, rereading this, it occurs to me that maybe you're using notation software to figure out the rhythms for the solo?

If this is the case, I would actually advise against that. Maybe get a teacher or other musician on troublespots rhythmically . Honestly, I think people HERE would enjoy solving these kind of problems . People always seem interested.

Anyway, with swing and triplets , I think it's important to notate things the way they were actually originally "felt" by the player , and not just approximated mathematically using notation software. Those dotted quarter rhythms above are more like triplets. I would have a much more difficult time at reading that rhythm the way you have it notated, and would probably never arrive at the feel of the original reading about. More than likely, once figured out, a musician would say "Oh, they're triplets".

Anyway, it's very difficult to transcribe rhythms you can't basically play and read. for most verse , that's definitely the case more so with swing, 12/8 feels, or triplets. If you want to transcribe swing syncopation better, it's worth spending a little time reading and playing the triplet rhythms from Louis Bellson's 4/4 or similar drum books. The good news is that the rhythms you're talking about are actually simpler when approached that way.

I think that kind of work will better address what I think you were originally asking about with regard to " wasted time". Learning to read and play rhythms in this time base first is kind of "sharpening the saw", as opposed to just working harder. With a reasonable amount of short-term work, it will save you a lot of time long-term and improve your understanding of the music.

Yes, ok thanks matt for your comments.

This really started when I bought a copy of Jazz Guitar Lines of the Greats by Steve Briody that did not come with a CD of the transcriptions.

Many of the reviews on this book complained of this fact however, as I was after the theory and trying to "see" the phrases inside modes I just though I'd put them into MuseScore and I have a reasonable idea of how they would sound. Yeah so they sounded flat and dead, but I was able to get something from them.

This particular solo I liked so much I thought I'd just jot it down and be on my way and hopefully get into a system of transcribing that would work fast!

What a joke trying to get MuseScore to swing! I see fully now what your saying about triplets and that they would be far more intuitive then trying to read those dotted eights (which I was told from the get go never to play anyway).

Ok thanks again.
I'm going to meet the guy playing on the 28th of this month so I'll just ask what his thoughts were on it.

[WILSON 1]

Does Transcribe! offer any advantages over simply pulling a sound file into Reaper? In Reaper I can loop and slow it down easily. There's also a stock pitch shifter plugin for adjusting pitch, although I've never used it. I've been thinking about buying Transcribe! and want to make sure I'm not spending money on something that I can already do with my DAW.

I like it specifically because there is a "note guess" (piano key graphic) component that I've found very useful.

I was using AnyTune and Audacity to slow things and loop prior to purchasing Transcribe but I'm not familiar with Reaper.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yes, ok thanks matt for your comments.

This really started when I bought a copy of Jazz Guitar Lines of the Greats by Steve Briody that did not come with a CD of the transcriptions.

Many of the reviews on this book complained of this fact however, as I was after the theory and trying to "see" the phrases inside modes I just though I'd put them into MuseScore and I have a reasonable idea of how they would sound. Yeah so they sounded flat and dead, but I was able to get something from them.

This particular solo I liked so much I thought I'd just jot it down and be on my way and hopefully get into a system of transcribing that would work fast!

What a joke trying to get MuseScore to swing! I see fully now what your saying about triplets and that they would be far more intuitive then trying to read those dotted eights (which I was told from the get go never to play anyway).

Ok thanks again.
I'm going to meet the guy playing on the 28th of this month so I'll just ask what his thoughts were on it.

Are you using this feature?.... Swing | MuseScore

It may help with some playback feel issues, but you'd still have to know how to notate quarter note triplets for basic IMO.

Anyway, I'd think the goal is to be able to hear triplets the way you hear quarter notes, eights, or sixteenths. You may have to stop and work things out etc., but at least you have some kind of idea what you're hearing.

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[WILSON 1]

DAMN!


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[Jazzstdnt]

You might try a drill where you already have the transcription/music (i.e. "the answer sheet") and see how well you can transcribe it, then check your work.

One example drill - take a piece of music that focuses on a skill - like triplets and steady eighth notes, and play it yourself. Then try to transcribe it a few days or weeks later. Do NOT memorize the piece/etude.

Find out what you can/cannot transcribe before you head into the forest of recorded jazz solos, what with all their inaccurate time, pitch, articulation and so on. Also you might try Ear Master software.

Ear training and transcription is the painstaking and lonely part of being a musician. :0

[fep]

My experience has been what you are doing is very useful and if you do it a lot you'll only get better at it. I feel that I have low inate ability at transcribing, even still I've improved over time and I think transcribing and notating the music is the primary reason I've improved over time. It helps in recognizing both pitch and rhythms. I now often go from the recording and straight to the notation without refering to my instrument for some of the lines. Perhaps that's a result of my musical vocabulary expanding in no small part to the benefits of transcribing.

My approach may be a bit different in that I transcribe simple music like classic rock melodies, bass lines, chords, and less often solos. I do a bit of transcribing of jazz and blues solos, but not too much. Transcribing more difficult music, like bebop solos, is so laborious for me and perhaps not as beneficial.

[WILSON 1]

My experience has been what you are doing is very useful and if you do it a lot you'll only get better at it.

Yeah thanks, feb for that note of encouragement. I will continue to finish this as I feel that some things are getting into my fingers.

Find out what you can/cannot transcribe before you head into the forest of recorded jazz solos, what with all their inaccurate time, pitch, articulation and so on. Also you might try Ear Master software.

Thanks Jazzstdnt I'm finding this out very quickly. After studying Briody's book I thought I'd try a "live" solo myself and perhaps I chose the wrong one.

I should add here too that, so far, I'm not seeing anything "abstract" perhaps other than using a Lady Bird turn into the solo itself. I'm seeing chord shape articulation which I had abandoned some time back but that might be wrong.

Anyway, thanks for your comments and help.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's also the kind of separate conversation , as to whether it's super important that rhythms be written down in a really precise way in the beginning anyway....

Again, I don't know how to prioritize this. If you can otherwise play along, that's more important for certain purposes. Long run, It IS valuable to be able to hear rhythms like this concretely, but if you're getting bogged down, is it mostly with the rhythmic NOTATION aspect?

That's maybe a different priority. Not unimportant, but playing it?.... probably moreso.

Here's something which I was working on a couple days ago. Very much a current work-in-progress: Days of Wine and Roses - Reg523 | Soundslice
I need to fix the sync points for beats, and then some of it will line up better. (Can't do it with my mouse-less home laptop.) Now, there is some of that which I can somewhat play/get my ears around , but which is definitely harder for me to relate to notationally/rhythmically. If I I'm doing it just for myself, it would be more about whether I could conceptualize it well enough for myself, to PLAY it and get something out of it.

You also need to understand that there is something of a kind of notational semantics involved with some of this stuff.

Some of the rhythms in my above example could be notated VERY specifically using 8th note triplet rhythms , whereas jazz musicians typically would just notate them as eight notes and then, just make mental notes that they are "ahead" or "behind" etc. I mean if it's perfect in terms of time and syncing, but you can't READ it/understand it in a musical level, what's the point? Or if the original artist was thinking something like 8th notes with specific feels , and you notate it as some very complex rhythm to make it "line up", does that very different way of thinking help you in learning to play? I would think not.

Anyway, I don't have answers for all of these questions, but I don't think you need to get super bogged down in perfect rhythmic notation. Personally, I'd like to hear from Christian or someone who's transcribed a lot more. It's worth noting probably that the most prolific "transcribers" on the forum mostly don't write anything down.

.

[WILSON 1]

Again, I don't know how to prioritize this. If you can otherwise play along, that's more important for certain purposes. Long run, It IS valuable to be able to hear rhythms like this concretely, but if you're getting bogged down, is it mostly with the rhythmic NOTATION aspect?

You also need to understand that there is something of a kind of notational semantics involved with some of this stuff.

Some of the rhythms in my above example could be notated VERY specifically using 8th note triplet rhythms , whereas jazz musicians typically would just notate them as eight notes and then, just make mental notes that they are "ahead" or "behind" etc. I mean if it's perfect in terms of time and syncing, but you can't READ it/understand it in a musical level, what's the point?

Or if the original artist was thinking something like 8th notes with specific feels , and you notate it as some very complex rhythm to make it "line up", does that very different way of thinking help you in learning to play? I would think not.

Anyway, I don't have answers for all of these questions, but I don't think you need to get super bogged down in perfect rhythmic notation.

Yes I understand what you've said and I can see how this could lead to time not well spent.

The remark about notational semantics is particularly interesting as I continue to " see the 'ands' " a la Barry Harris (and I should be feeling them and playing them not seeing them). So the clip will not wonder far from the transcription..that's for sure.

I keep playing the measures over and over a hundred times and something is happening although, sad to say, I thought I was better at it, but I started this and I'll take it to the end for what it's worth.

I should have said at the very beginning that the idea was to see the solo in mode form which starts with the paper form and now has lead to a battle with the software that doesn't help at all with the original idea...so that is annoying.

Thanks again for your thoughts and I'll post whatever I get from all of this and hope it will be useful to someone.