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  1. #1

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    So I heard Miles saying in an interview that white musicians seem to lag behind the beat, for whatever reason. What do you think about that, is he right, is there some cultural background contributing to the phenomena, if there is such...
    Last edited by aleksandar; 05-15-2018 at 04:18 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Maybe Miles was hitting the white powder a bit?

    Swing is about playing with the beat, to my ears ... lagging and rushing.

    Is he right? I don't think so.

  4. #3

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    You can't take much of what Miles Davis said in interviews seriously. I don't believe there is any racial aspect to musicianship one way or another.

  5. #4

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    i wonder if he was trying to be metaphorical
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  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i wonder if he was trying to be metaphorical
    If that's the case, it's got a lot of validity regarding the last 100 years or so...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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  7. #6

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    I think Lester Young holds the record for lagging behind the beat...
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  8. #7

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    Yeah I find it puzzling.

    But Miles maybe was hearing the rhythm differently?

    Playing behind is approximation. Swinging players are exact.

    Inaccurate 'behind' 'loose' playing does not swing, it's a caricature of hipness. A hip player knows the difference intuitively.

    Difference as I understand it - European rhythm is has the beat as the structural basis. Jazz reverses that at least a little - the upbeats are structural.

  9. #8

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    I find there is a smidgen of truth to it in my personal experience. Some guys just naturally feel it a bit behind the beat, that's where they like it. However, many do have to be on their game to stay right on top of the rhythm on some tempos, or they sound like they are dragging, even though the tempo is not slowing.

    Also some guys, when you want them to be right on the beat, they tend to speed up for some reason. I say it's cultural, not race.

    I believe the more often you play, and with more people, you'll have experienced it every so often, IMO.

    *This whole premise is based on jazz/blues musicians and not trained classical players.*
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 05-16-2018 at 01:21 AM.

  10. #9

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    Miles was an enigma. He said some things for effect, and other stuff because he'd been through so much crap as an artist, and as a Black man who happened to be rich.

    Here's my all time favorite Miles interview. He shows more of his inner being than usual. And after chatting with Dick Cavett, he plays "Tutu" on trumpet, filling in on keys during the guitarist's amazing solo. Cool stuff.


  11. #10

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    Huh, that's funny. I've noticed a lot of white folks playing right on the beat in symphony after symphony. I have also noticed very few black folks in the symphony. So what are we supposed to make of that?

    Regarding the OP, if there is something to this theory it's probably more culture than race. OTOH we don't know everything about race yet, even though some think they do.

    The truth is that we don't know everything about hardly anything, and that certainly includes the human body and brain.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Huh, that's funny. I've noticed a lot of white folks playing right on the beat in symphony after symphony. I have also noticed very few black folks in the symphony. So what are we supposed to make of that?

    Regarding the OP, if there is something to this theory it's probably more culture than race. OTOH we don't know everything about race yet, even though some think they do.

    The truth is that we don't know everything about hardly anything, and that certainly includes the human body and brain.
    But of course it's culture and not race. I didn't even mention "race" as such. When I use terms like "black" and "white", I have culture in mind.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleksandar View Post
    But of course it's culture and not race. I didn't even mention "race" as such. When I use terms like "black" and "white", I have culture in mind.
    I understand, that makes a lot of sense to me.

    But that interview was American, and in America a lot of people see things only through a prism of race.

  14. #13

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    Jeeze. You can see the condescension and scorn he feels for being subjected to this "interview". This is not what he would say were he talking to peers. This is Mile's "interview" face.
    White musicians play behind the beat I don't know why. He's probably thinking of playing with Sco who lives in a pocket back there. That's nothing compared with Dexter. Oh yeah, maybe Miles looked at Dexter's lighter complexion and said "Oh he must be white underneath cuz he plays back there"... NOT.
    Interviews like this are to be taken with a huge grain of salt, especially when it comes to Miles. Anybody who knows the backstage side of Miles knows what he felt and lived was often a long way from what he said at the innane goadings of interviewers adept at thrill manipulation and fishing for a juicy sound bite.

    I really can imagine the 20 minutes following that interview. He's talking to some musicians. They say "Can you believe that guy and that question about the way 'black musicians hurt more?' and he'd be saying 'He's so STUPID'..." I can hear his voice.

    Interviews like this. Read between the lines. Interviewer and interviewee, both playing a game. Especially when it comes to smart musicians and innane questions.

    David

  15. #14

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    Jazz student is on slippy territory with the classical time feel thing lol that’s the flame war that launched Adam Neely that is.

    I would say from my own experiences performing in large scale core repertoire works with bands like the London Philharmonic and so on conductors like Bernard Haitink etc, that professional orchestras (and good amateur choral groups) do indeed perform way behind the beat of if by ‘the beat’ we mean the conductors baton.

    Some conductors such as Esa Pekka Salonen have aimed to retrain orchestras to play on the beat, and when you think of his repertoire (20th century rep and contemporary) that makes sense.

    Also early bands play often without a conductor so their corporate timefeel is the issue, and I think their conception of time is more like jazz or pop.

    (Anyway I do think it is possible to have good time in a classical sense - metronomic subdivision, sensitive rubato etc - and still be totally at sea when it comes to a jazz conception of time. You see it all the time.... but that’s not really that relevant to the op.)

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Jeeze. You can see the condescension and scorn he feels for being subjected to this "interview". This is not what he would say were he talking to peers. This is Mile's "interview" face.
    White musicians play behind the beat I don't know why. He's probably thinking of playing with Sco who lives in a pocket back there. That's nothing compared with Dexter. Oh yeah, maybe Miles looked at Dexter's lighter complexion and said "Oh he must be white underneath cuz he plays back there"... NOT.
    Interviews like this are to be taken with a huge grain of salt, especially when it comes to Miles. Anybody who knows the backstage side of Miles knows what he felt and lived was often a long way from what he said at the innane goadings of interviewers adept at thrill manipulation and fishing for a juicy sound bite.

    I really can imagine the 20 minutes following that interview. He's talking to some musicians. They say "Can you believe that guy and that question about the way 'black musicians hurt more?' and he'd be saying 'He's so STUPID'..." I can hear his voice.

    Interviews like this. Read between the lines. Interviewer and interviewee, both playing a game. Especially when it comes to smart musicians and innane questions.

    David
    Yeah I have to agree.... I think that’s what’s going on....

  17. #16

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    Btw the idea that genetics has a bearing is pretty risible on an intellectual level
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-16-2018 at 08:38 AM.

  18. #17

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    That is; while I can accept musical talent is a phenotype and even a strong sense of pulse, the placement of ones rhythm in this or that musical style is a little more of a stretch.

    I put it in the same category as homeopathy and Deepack Chopra.

    EDIT: ha this got me thinking further....

    actually by its definition I guess pretty much anything is a phenotype. We might call music itself an extended phenotype I suppose.

    However, it’s a murky term. Nature versus nurture is always tricky to separate, and I think there’s a complex interaction between the two from my anecdotal experience. Some people (of various backgrounds and ethnicities) simply seem to have good time innately (not me I might add) even if they are not able to play an instrument very well.

    In terms of how they play the beat? Well maaaaybe - but experience counts for a lot more. Playing for 40 years in an orchestra will shape your musical identity differently from playing in a funk band.

    OTOH historically people have looked to correlate one phenotype with another in a manner that has nothing to do with actual real genetics. The interviewer above, for instance.

    Why they should choose to correlate in particular one easily observable phenotype to various questionable others is probably best understood from a societal perspective.

    Miles decided to yank his chain....
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-16-2018 at 09:17 AM.

  19. #18
    Well, certainly I didn't post the thread as a cliche "black-slavery-hurt-blues", and Miles was spot on when he told the "my father is rich, and my mom's good looking . I can play the blues, but I didn't suffer, nor I intend to suffer" anecdote. However, that line: "white musicians play different" intrigued me. From a European point of view, I do notice though, slight difference when a black musician is playing the blues for example. They accentuate differently somehow, maybe just like the way that African Americans talk slightly different than the Americans of European origin.

    So to stress once more - I did not intend to imply anything racially offensive. As a matter of fact, as we all know jazz is one of the perfect examples of cultural interchange, globally.

  20. #19
    An example of black vs white jazz guitarist - Wes and Joe Pass. Though to me Wes sounds like playing more loosely, while Joe is on the beat, but swinging it.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleksandar View Post
    Well, certainly I didn't post the thread as a cliche "black-slavery-hurt-blues", and Miles was spot on when he told the "my father is rich, and my mom's good looking . I can play the blues, but I didn't suffer, nor I intend to suffer" anecdote. However, that line: "white musicians play different" intrigued me. From a European point of view, I do notice though, slight difference when a black musician is playing the blues for example. They accentuate differently somehow, maybe just like the way that African Americans talk slightly different than the Americans of European origin.

    So to stress once more - I did not intend to imply anything racially offensive. As a matter of fact, as we all know jazz is one of the perfect examples of cultural interchange, globally.
    I didn't get that (not that I really know as a white dude)... And think the speech reference is really deep.... Speech and music are really interlinked....

    If anything the OP goes to show how language around race has changed.... These days that interviewer would be looking for a new job.... Probably end up as a YouTube pundit :-)

  22. #21

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    Forget about race people. Listen to the music. Forget about what this person or that person said. I think Joe Pass swings like a mother. Oh, and Wes Montgomery too. Mary Lou Williams ain't too bad either. Mary McPartland is also pretty damn good in my book too...just to name a few. How 'bout that?
    "If I don't practice for a day, I know it... for two days, the critics know it... three days, the public knows it." -- Louis Armstrong

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler View Post
    Miles was an enigma. He said some things for effect, and other stuff because he'd been through so much crap as an artist, and as a Black man who happened to be rich.

    Here's my all time favorite Miles interview. He shows more of his inner being than usual. And after chatting with Dick Cavett, he plays "Tutu" on trumpet, filling in on keys during the guitarist's amazing solo. Cool stuff.

    GREAT solo is right... That's Bay Area Garth Webber and his screamin' Strat

    I like when Miles invites him to get out into the spotlight...

    Dick steps in it when he suggests that Miles stole his wardrobe from Liberace!!
    measure with micrometer... mark with chalk... cut with axe

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleksandar View Post
    However, that line: "white musicians play different" intrigued me. From a European point of view, I do notice though, slight difference when a black musician is playing the blues for example. They accentuate differently somehow, maybe just like the way that African Americans talk slightly different than the Americans of European origin.
    I'm glad you cleared up your question. I do agree with you in some cases, that things like speech patterns can effect the way some people play, and create the "weight" by which they interpret the meaning of swing.
    But that's more a function of the individual's powers of interpretation more than any factour of blatant race origin.
    I will share a couple of stories based on my experience that informed my opinions. There was a French bass player who was quite good. He got to play sideman to a lot of heavy cats who live and work in this town. But there was always something unsettling about his time feel. Nobody could put their finger on it. THen on one gig, Adam was on drums so everyone had to turn up and after the gig one of the musicians commented "I've never listened that closely to him, but he swings with a French accent!" and the other cats there said "That's IT!" And it was true, the unique linguistic plasticity of the beat that is evident in speech was present in his body, in his hands, in his touch.
    Of course that's not a given. NOHP had a swing sense like an old time bebop player, as fluid and strong as anyone brought up in the tradition. George Mraz has European orchestral spot on intonation and scary arco chops playing classical, but when he plays jazz, it's right in the pocket and his inflections are right on. And he's pretty white.

    About 20 years ago I was learning piedmont blues. I couldn't find a convincing teacher in the NorthEast. I thought If I'm serious, go to the South. I went to and lived in Durham NC where I met a man there who played like the real thing, was a grave digger when playing blues didn't pay the bills and shared all he could about his playing. Yes. It had that feel. That swing. That accent I recognized immediately. But as much as I asked him and watched him (I admit that a lot of what he told me I didn't understand, so heavy was his slow accented way of speaking), and I picked up some things and found it elusive.
    THen one day it struck me: His playing swings in the exact same way his speech swings. Slow, fluid and muddy like a river. From that moment on, I heard the speech patterns, the rhythms, the feel of black Durham conversation in every note of Piedmont blues. It's instantly recognizable and it was the key to my changing my playing from "visiting" to "native speaker".

    That's my experience anyway. I never once associated it with a race determined propensity, but I do know that different people have different meanings for "Walk the walk and talk the talk."

    David

  25. #24
    Obviously it's because we think/feel through language and most of the time we can express ourselves best in our mother tongue. Like Mike Stern always points out, learning music is like learning a new language, and when you play a solo or a theme, you got to tell a story. That would be an interesting topic for a dissertation or something - the influence of speech metric, syncopation, vowel weakening etc. on music rhythm and phrasing.

  26. #25

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  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by smokinguit View Post
    I think Joe Pass swings like a mother.
    True that...And sometimes his swingin' makes me dizzy. I mean, he's really great, great voicings, I got a lot of his music in my music library, but his swingin' is like TAaaa-da, TAaaa-da, whereas I like it to be more like a floating feel, I don't know how to explain.

  28. #27

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    Linguistic/Music associations Myth or Reality?

    Enjoy:










  29. #28

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    you may walked straight into Miles bait,

    ......sure hired lots of Pale boys, Evans Sco Chick J Mc, and an Albino. etc

    Miles Don' Meen it like dat Bro jus messin wid ya


    Shhh/Peaceful

  30. #29

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    OK I watched the whole interview. I wanted it to go on (because I wanted to see more of Miles, not Harry Reasoner). The 60 minutes genius referred to Miles as "upper middle class".

    Ahem. Upper middle class, huh? Miles had a brownstone or some such in Manhattan, a beach side Malibu place, a Ferrari Testarossa. (Ok, so he could have used an interior decorator for his bachelor pad).

    That's just another example of how jaded, elitist, smug, sheltered, and once again arguably racist - the interviewer was.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 05-17-2018 at 08:32 AM.

  31. #30

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    In the end I think that this was a bit of a hit piece on Miles, for ratings of course. It focused very little on jazz music and instead was mostly personal. It focused on his material possessions and holdings, youthful misdeeds, financial well being, even his marriage/divorce. I think that journalists ask these gotcha questions of people to make them squirm, on camera.

    First question was provocative as hell - "are black musicians better than white musicians?"

    Where did that come from? Probably from Miles criticizing Brubeck's band to his face and other such statements, etc. But it could have been phrased better, like "do white musicians play African American music as effectively and authentically as African Americans?"

    Now that would have been a more fair and less provocative question. The answer may not have been so comfortable though, at least to Harry Reasoner.

    On the questions about Cicely Tyson, and old fashioned person would have said something like "that's personal and none of your business". Yet Harry Reasoner poked at him like an interrogator or pushy priest.

    Even if HR wanted to dish dirt on Miles he could have done that with narration. "Investigative journalism", my ass.

  32. #31

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    I think after rigorous analysis and debate the conclusion is that the interviewer was a poopy head.

    I do enjoy Miles's expression of baffled disbelief at the inanity of the questions.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    OK I watched the whole interview. I wanted it to go on (because I wanted to see more of Miles, not Harry Reasoner). The 60 minutes genius referred to Miles as "upper middle class".

    Ahem. Upper middle class, huh? Miles had a brownstone or some such in Manhattan, a beach side Malibu place, a Ferrari Testarossa. (Ok, so he could have used an interior decorator for his bachelor pad).

    That's just another example of how jaded, elitist, smug, sheltered, and once again arguably racist - the interviewer was.
    Talk about: ''jaded, elitist, smug, sheltered, and once again arguably racist''. An academic from a southern (US) college, maybe LSU, recently wrote a book (I can't recall the name) about classism in the South. She tells a story about a guy from a white working class southern family who gets a full ride scholarship to Yale. He is surprised to hear his classmates refer to Drs. and lawyers etc as being middle class. That seems to be setting the bar pretty high and puts a lot of us in the white trash (which may have been part of the book's title) category. On the other side of the coin, I've known children of Oakies whose parents were in the late 30s picking cotton in TX and Oklahoma for a dollar a day and blew out to Calif where they cobbled together a 1/2 way decent lifestyle (but nothing special) consider themselves ''upper middle class'' I suppose because they had indoor plumbing a car and a telephone. Goes to show you the confused state of class consciousness in America.
    Last edited by mrcee; 05-17-2018 at 12:22 PM.

  34. #33

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    I thought Miles handled that interview very well. In the old days I think he would have shown that interviewer some of his boxing skills.

  35. #34

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    Middle class is a broad and inexact term. I thought we were middle class, about average for the people I knew (and everybody knew everybody, pretty much, in the county), and we didn't have running water or an indoor toilet until I started high school, and no phone until after I was in the Army. Looking back, we were dirt poor but I didn't realize it until much, much later. I didn't know how the city folks lived.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I thought Miles handled that interview very well. In the old days I think he would have shown that interviewer some of his boxing skills.

    I like how he started watching the TV and ignored Reasoner for awhile. Hehe.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell View Post
    You can't take much of what Miles Davis said in interviews seriously. I don't believe there is any racial aspect to musicianship one way or another.
    Yeah I gotta agree! I've played music with white and black ppl and if they're in the same caliber of musicianship as you're in they will be in sync. Color don't matter and let's not forget that Miles Davis was a heroin addict for most of his life and that only got worse towards the end of his life.

  38. #37

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    I am not sure why I want to tread into this thread, but I thought that Miles once said that the best bands were composed of mixed ethnicity.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post
    I am not sure why I want to tread into this thread, but I thought that Miles once said that the best bands were composed of mixed ethnicity.
    I think he said he hires his band because they're the best. He didn't care if they were black, white or purple.

    David

  40. #39
    yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

    I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat.


  41. #40

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    Thank you for introducing me to Dan's playing.

  42. #41
    dan's a great player. I used to jam with him regularly, now he's playing the village vanguard, bluenote, playing with christian mcbride and was nominated for a grammy. He's on the road a lot with joey defrancesco.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.
    I don't speak for all African Americans, but in my opinion our particular rhythm/timing is the result of tens of thousands of years of existence. It is, in fact, particular to our collective experience and passed along and reinforced by our common cultural experiences, including our churches, our house parties, our social clubs, etc..

    Inside story, whether it's Miles or most any other African American, we do believe we have a particular sense of timing that distinguishes us from most white Americans. It's expressed in our music, our speech, our dance, and choice of colors, etc. We didn't invent it, it's who we are.

    Personally, I believe as the world continues to shrink, and the races continue to intermingle, a common human expression will emerge that draws on the best of us all. Then we can dispense with these kinds of discussions.

    Albert
    Last edited by AKA; 05-19-2018 at 02:58 PM.

  44. #43
    I think no matter the race or kind of music, everything accounts for the way a person plays. Heritage, music you are exposed to, what you see in the mirror, muscle system, upbringing, etc.. You play who you are. Black and white jazz players do play differently, at least to my ears, and each bring a different sensitivity to the music. The way the rhythm flows and grooves is one of the biggest differences. Just watch white and black people walk, or kids play and it is plain to see. I like both, Red Garland is fine, so is Bill Evans. Dan Wilson, Peter Bernstein, list goes on..




    -- @jjucker that was a great video i hadn't seen before of Dan Wilson. I have his first cd, and it 's impressive how much he's progressed from his early playing (which i also enjoyed a lot). Man, you have to live an ocean and a half away from all this music to really appreciate youtube

  45. #44

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    Yeah what you guys are saying here to me was the whole thing I was trying to sum up elsewhere between old school swing and the more modern approach. (Which is how I saw it rather than in race terms, but the influence of other black music and the church was certainly present in my mind.)

    Anyway, to me a lot of it is a difference in the quality of articulation as much as specific beat placement, but ears might be on wrong here.

    There is a positivity and snap to Dan’s playing, but it is also relaxed on the beat.... His double time is pretty mega.

    Moreno consciously accents the upbeat and plays straight and a little behind which is the textbook definition of a mature swing feel really... In this sense i wouldn’t hear Dan Wilson or Barry Harris for instance as doing it differently but there’s clearly a stylistic difference which goes beyond these simple elements and may be hard or impossible to analyse (which is why they call it feel.)

    I do remember Dan Wilson from the 2015 Wes competition tearing up Cottontail. Looking it up he didn’t do that well in the placings (lot of really nice players in the final) but clearly he’s going from strength to strength. Just goes to show....

  46. #45

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    I might be wrong here but I think players like Moreno would tend to consciously avoid that type of bluesy medium tempo heavily tripletty swing as well...

    Would love to hear an example, I haven’t heard anything like that from him.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

    I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat.
    Based on these two clips, I'm all in with Dan. That's the kind of feel I love. Mike has chops and I'm sure I could learn a lot from him, but what he's doing----and he does it damned well---just doesn't speak to me at all. (I think this might be why so little post-50s jazz really grabs me, UNLESS it has that blues 'n' gospel flavoring in it. Benson, obviously, though I lost interest in more of the fusiony / pop stuff. I never got into Metheny at all. And let me hasten to add, "It's not him, it's me!"

    On a related note, I like a lot of Pat Martino's early stuff but care less for the later stuff. He's a helluva player all the time, but I'd rather listen to one of his old records than one of his newer ones. The feel of the older ones suits me better.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  48. #47

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    [QUOTE=jzucker;871566]yes, he's right in general. Epitomized by listening to the way George Benson vs. Pat Metheny attacks 8th notes. Of course, it has little to do with skin color. It has more to do with the exposure of blues, R&B and jazz in black church.

    I think it's no coincidence that Dan Wilson is one of the few young jazz guitarists (early '20s) who plays with that "black" feel. He happens to be black and was brought up in a very middle class environment but told me that his first exposure to jazz, blues and R&B was a child in african american churches. Compare his playing and time feel to Mike Moreno. Equally great player, but very different feel and approach to the beat.



    I REALLY dig Dan Wilson's playing!!
    This young man is a rising Super Star in my view.

    Jazz Guitarist Dan Wilson

  49. #48
    Playing festivals all over the world with Joey de Francesco, i'd say he's already risen!

  50. #49

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    I do feel like there is an increasing divide between the players who are coming out of say Church music, Benson etc and those that come out of ... err .... Rush and Joe Satriani....

    In the latter case the music is always a bit proggy in outlook.

    Which I can dig, but what I actually miss a little is a synthesis of the two. Some of that feel in the more ‘contemporary’ jazz music... could it even work? I dunno.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-22-2018 at 08:29 AM.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Jazz student is on slippy territory with the classical time feel thing lol that’s the flame war that launched Adam Neely that is.

    I would say from my own experiences performing in large scale core repertoire works with bands like the London Philharmonic and so on conductors like Bernard Haitink etc, that professional orchestras (and good amateur choral groups) do indeed perform way behind the beat of if by ‘the beat’ we mean the conductors baton.

    Some conductors such as Esa Pekka Salonen have aimed to retrain orchestras to play on the beat, and when you think of his repertoire (20th century rep and contemporary) that makes sense.

    Also early bands play often without a conductor so their corporate timefeel is the issue, and I think their conception of time is more like jazz or pop.

    (Anyway I do think it is possible to have good time in a classical sense - metronomic subdivision, sensitive rubato etc - and still be totally at sea when it comes to a jazz conception of time. You see it all the time.... but that’s not really that relevant to the op.)
    Have you heard about 'tatus' conception? To me it's very complex notion which is imho often oversimplified today and to me represented very well - paradoxally enough fir modern HIPP player - in Furtwangler's records...

    He makes astounding feel of time... it's like it's moving and standing at teh same time.
    but in classical time is always connected with harmony, I do not believe there is a pure rythm as it is.