I hadn’t heard that before! Whispering, nice old tune.
Yeah, I think I covered my understanding of the nature of jazz time feel above and I stand by it.
Rhythm sections push, horns lag back. Sometimes, in the case of Errol Garner you have an example where famously the right hand is behind the left hand rhythmically.
But everyone catches the upbeat when playing single time so it sits in pocket.
If you watch David Bruce’s latest video he talks about micro rhythm. He discusses Errol Garner briefly.
I’m going to release a video on practicing swing feel 8ths next week.
My theory: People get confused about this, esp with respect to practicing with a click which is why people today tend to play double time at medium tempo. Players who don’t do this tend to be the ones that have learned most by playing with records.
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10-05-2018, 12:15 PM #181
10-05-2018, 05:04 PM #182
Regarding lagging, I can’t say if it is a racial thing, but the guy I used to study with who is a pretty good player and a jazz historian often encouraged me to lag slightly behind the beat, and to my ears it just never made sense and never sounded right.
10-05-2018, 06:19 PM #183
The relationship between the soloists downbeats and bands beat is a microrhythm that's hard to get (and varies depending on the size of your dot and where the rhythm section is sitting) while it's quite clear to feel the difference between a straight and swung upbeat.
So - feel the upbeats, and play nice and even, don't try to swing - that was the framing that helped me....
10-06-2018, 11:29 AM #184
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- Dec 2010
BUT in actual 'hearing 'it mentally ...or listening to Charlie Parker ...it sounds like his 'upbeats' do seem to do what you are saying ...is that correct ?
You ( personally ) end up with a more ' graceful' natural swing by doing this as opposed to the slightly' pushed swing' that I use - probably got in my head somewhere from listening to Benson - because If I tried to do it knowing me it would have taken 20 years .
Anyway ...the way you expressed it in the post above seems less complex than how you expressed it before ...
I can actually hear what you are saying- although I am guessing will help people who are a little more advanced [ enough to listen to their own phrases while they play and control the flow ] as I am ...than early students -
But I think now that you might have a really good condensed idea there ..especially for someone who teaches or for intermediate and advanced Players.
When I said earlier that ' most people reference downbeats ' I mean generally like conductors, teachers ( like you ), even audiences etc. I can play triplets or septuplets almost like a drummer locked to a metronome or beat or track and when they land on downbeats is how everyone can tell they are tight - HOWEVER I agree that color is added by intentionally lagging
a little- on Solos.
Most singers would sound totally odd if they were dead On-Beat all the time .Even Benson and Charlie Parker move intentionally [like on 'Confirmation '- where CP inserts that little quote with a different time feel than the rest of the line and makes it work effortlessy ]
I can actually hear the upbeats thing , although that's not how I did it....but I like that idea now that I get it ...it's like some of Reg's Theory posts ...you kind of have to grow into them.
Your idea though or description might help me create even cooler Rhythm Chord Patterns that don't need to always start on the 'One ' etc.
The reason I know I have good time and the way you could tell is when I sync triplets almost like a drummer ...and it's the downbeats that let the Public know .
But- I hear syncopations and play them and that's how I can actually' hear ' what you are talking about in that post above- although I don't 'swing' that way -I just 'hear' the whole thing.
Parker may be the most effortless ,graceful , of improvisers (not that I am an authority on all Jazzers ) and if I listen to CP and ignore the syncopation volumes -I can actually hear the upbeats as you say syncing .
Your earlier Post on this went over my head - syncing upbeats I think is a heightened awareness -or may lead to it.
Actually on Reggae for example - most of us probably do that anyway [!] but subconsciously .. your Concept takes it further - ,obviously - a very cool idea .
I like how I swing now on lines so I don't want to use the upbeat sync idea ( messes with my brain lol ) for that BUT I can absolutely use it on 'picked and plucked ' rhythms ...or all fingers Rhythms where I imitate a mediocre Piano Player ( with good time though).
I have never consciously ' synced upbeats '
as you describe but as I said - Reggae Rhythm Guitar - We all do already WITHOUT thinking - but your thing becoming more aware and doing it consciously is excellent. [ copyright and trademark it now ]
I think it is a very good concept - once you get over the ' Vertigo ' ( lol ) from feeling the pulse this way - it may sharpen up or create a heightened awareness of musical time ...( like the Crest Toothpaste commercial - when used in a properly applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care ..haha.....)
Like I can hybrid pick a lot of Rhythms like 'Higher Ground ' by Stevie W where the pick does a 16th Pattern on the bottom strings while I pluck the i -bIII -IV on top..
But for more sophisticated rhythms where the 16th notes are not all played but implied or there's Rhythmic Fingerpicking
on top or syncopated chords coming in and out of the Pattern - your idea really gives a second perspective for creating holes in patterns [without the Clave effect as a crutch on the lower strings hitting every note ].
Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-06-2018 at 01:41 PM.
10-06-2018, 01:22 PM #185
1) It's not *my* idea! You might want to take another look at that Charles McPherson Do the Math interview. I would regard what he's talking as a language that musicians can understand.
Interview with Charles McPherson | DO THE M@TH
2) With that in mind, there's a division to made between the nerdy science side of it (which can help conceptually) and the intuitive aspect of 'how this feels' as well as exercises and language that can actually lock it in for a student. This is true of any aspect of music. (A musician doesn't need to know about the overtone series to hear a major chord etc.)
I don't think this video is actually suggesting that Gnawa or Samba musicians actually need to know any of this math to play their music it's just an interesting thing to make a YouTube vid about.
3) The difference between a swung and straight upbeat is an obvious aspect of the music that you have to learn to hear and place accurately. At fast tempos this difference becomes really very small, more a nuance. Playing straight against swung IS a resource you hear from players.
4) In the case of Benson example I posted, Billie's Bounce, his medium tempo rhythmic vocabulary is so varied it's actually quite hard to compare him to other guitar players directly.
10-06-2018, 02:44 PM #186
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- Oct 2015
I enjoyed the video.
I'd add one point.
The placement of those beats is dependent on tempo. So, even if you can notate them correctly using standard notation at one tempo, the resulting notation would be incorrect at another tempo.
An effective notation system would somehow have to quantify certain intervals as a variable percentage of the tempo - and even that might not be right. I guess I can imagine putting all that info into future notation software, then inputting a tempo and having the software notate it correctly at that chosen tempo. But, it isn't clear that anybody could actually read it.
10-06-2018, 04:08 PM #187
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- Dec 2010
Yeah...I heard the delay instantly on comparing the quantized version versus the other original feel .
Micro Rhythm is something I referred to earlier in this thread in terms of a few milliseconds and indeed on my synced Guitar Triplets and sextuplets ..to get them to land on the following ' one 'the second grouping especially the fourth note ( the second group of tuplets must be accented on the first one and generally accented and moved forward in the beat to 'flow smoothly ' - perfect quantization won't work as well as a time sensitive Player can do for this.
This Guy seems like a straight up academic who can notate and program but would not be able to play micro rhythms in real time .
The two examples to me would be actual different Beats or subsequences not micro variations of the same beat .
I could play Rhythm Guitar Parts [ without being able to motate them accurately lol ]
That would A] Fit one track but not the other
B] Fit Both tracks
Merely by keying and syncing NOT to upbeats but the precise percussion instruments.
Remember that in the 1970s I recorded 30 and 60 second Musical Commercials Guitar first then other Musicians recorded to the same click track with my Guitar in the Cue .....
No computers , no quantize ,no cell phones, ...there was electricity ...lol.
Micro Time I referred to much earlier in this thread ..
Not the same as syncing to upbeats.
Again the two examples he posted would be different pattern numbers in my
sequencer [ although I don't have one now ] I have not done a Project since 2000 which was Music for a young R&B singer -
I always thought since I did the Commercials that unless I had serious chops it would not be profitable to present myself as a Guitarist/Artist...but I have been able to do studio tight Rhythm or Fingerstyle parts for a long while .
So micro time and syncing to upbeats are two different things to me and this guy is aware of the phenomenon from programming / writing but probably can't play it in real time.
Just a guess.
I told you earlier in the thread that the typical time feel between Benson and someone like Rodgers is only a few milliseconds forward or back in the Beat.
Syncing parts to upbeats is a different thing to me ...which can be expanded to creating new Rhythms on Guitar from the same ' parent' track .
When I record ...with 4 or 5 takes in each style I could get very I close to either time feel ...
And do one solo that sounds like Rodgers and one like Benson.
I'll put that on the list.
I probably have a tighter time feel than most because I recorded professionally as Rhythm Guitarist and some Fingerstyle on commercials when young before sequencers, computers , cell phones...lol on multitrack tape...my guitar was the first instrument recorded to the click...
Some of my Rhythm Parts now are like swing [R&B swing ] classical guitar parts ...it has to be in time ...or will fall apart.
Cats = Dogs no . They are different.
Microtime = Syncing to upbeats - no. Two entirely different things to me
10-06-2018, 04:32 PM #188
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Such a fascinating conversation. Learning a lot, been puzzled some, and tried all sorts of things.
I just realized I innately understand the concept of a culturally different musical ... perception? ... again from my classical vocal lessons.
English vocal music tends to have each word or syllable of an aria having it's own note in the score. Especially music of the last 150 years.
Given the actual score of Italian and French arias ti sing ... was a bit of a shock at first.
You may have a vocal run of a phrase mostly in eighth notes ... but there will be 2, 3, or 4 syllable/sound words thrown in that phrase, each with only one written note.
WHAT THE .... ?
I was told the singer has to just learn how to add in all that within the context of the line as notated. Sometimes it's appropriate to simply turn a pair of written eighths into a triplet or "quartlet" figure, but often one or more syllables need more emphasis.
So then, ya gotta ... naturally ... feel the appropriate way to sing it expressively. And what you sing, if done accurately to the *intent* of the written line, won't be anything *like* the written line.
"So, you're telling me I have to do something "naturally" that is different than all previous training, practice, and performance?"
My vocal teacher's response, with a twinkle in her eye: Yup. Start working!
Sheesh, that ... was not easy. Mostly accomplished. Many arias I was able to get past thinking about it and just do it. There was still the occasional one that just didn't ... fit somehow.
And changing the tempo would often throw this out the window.
Very much like ... swing.
And as we all know, it don't mean a thing...
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10-06-2018, 04:37 PM #189
Whether or not he could actually play them is kind of a moot point because he's not a performer, but I suspect he would try and get to a point where he could demonstrate things in rehearsal etc.
10-06-2018, 04:41 PM #190
10-06-2018, 04:59 PM #191
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Oh ... Lord... my French.
I can say and sing decent German. Fairly nice Norwegian. Not bad on the Italian arias either.
My daughter learned to speak it well from an amazing teacher in high school. She was home for a year after college while my bi-language voice teacher was working with me on a couple French arias. Clearly, with great difficulty from her point of view.
One day she got a chance to talk a bit of French with The Daughter. Was very pleased and told me to say and sing French with Anna in the room.
I'm practicing one day, Anna sitting and reading while listening. Suddenly she started laughing so hard she rolled to the floor holding her sides for a good 3-4 minutes of howling with laughter.
I wasn't particularly amused but waited patiently until she could talk again.
"Daddy I just figured out your problem. It's not that you're using an American accent to sing French, you're using your Norwegian accent and that's why it's so funny!"
Next voice lesson, at the start of the lesson, I shared Anna's observation.
My voice teach spent the next couple minutes bent over the electric keyboard she was sitting at. And nearly made it to the floor herself.
It's such a huge confidence builder for a singer to provide such humor to others.
That's a decade back now. Anna still makes comments on it. I haven't been in vocal lessons for some years, but see my teach occasionally.
A frequent comment is "Any progress on that French?"
Yes, it's so good to provide such a lift and so much joy to others ...
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10-06-2018, 05:01 PM #192
'Playing drunk' to get the Dilla quintuplet swing all the kids now think is passe.... (Man that is so 2014)
In the same way, learning to play straight, even and late while feeling the upbeats is how we develop a mature 8th note swing feel (in so much as there's a method for it) but the result is a microrhyhmic nuance.
The concept of pushing is an example of a 'feel' thing related to microrhythm.
With the Benson thing you are really going to have to give me some concrete examples, perhaps recording that DAW track would be (I've messed with it myself a little.)
I'm willing to accept that Benson is much more accented and articulated, and may lie straighter at up tempos as with that Charlie Christian example, but I'm still hearing that swinging upbeat in the same way as with Parker. I'm talking about early Benson here, for instance:
There is a tautness and precision in that rhythm which is just amazing, but you can feel from the way that Slyde is tapping the triplet that triplet upbeat is still there because of the way he locks in. It's just so crisply and exactly articulated that it sounds more positive and energised than most jazz guitarists. It's magic.
However, he isn't dotting his eighths too much, so his downbeats have to fall behind the beat. He sounds locked in and funky though, rather than behind the beat. I suspect this is down to the precision and energy of his upbeat articulation.
I also feel he pushes the chord stabs when they lie on the beat - it's like Errol Garner again, exactly what I'd expect.
(Adam Rogers - great sense of groove - but very different way of articulating, much more even and smooth. Less rhythm variety in his lines when he's running changes. I also don't really imagine Rogers playing this kind of dancey swing feel.)
OTOH playing STRAIGHT upbeats against medium swing is also a thing, and you can hear it in players including Benson, Grant Green, Miles, Prez but not generally for a whole solo....
Last edited by christianm77; 10-06-2018 at 05:17 PM.
10-06-2018, 11:26 PM #193
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
Interesting ..Agree about Rodgers ...he really likes that even articulation ...perfectly spaced notes really even up and downstrokes and he doesn't sound late but a hair behind the beat ...he carves out his own space...he talks about bringing a bit of [Classical ] Pedagogy to Jazz though he doesn't use that word.
I can only play like that for a short time lol.
Like in your Video on Tonality you were on your 175 and just tossing off lines and Arps with crisp attack and a pretty snappy time feel ...to play like Rodgers requires being
'careful ' and it sounds cool when he does it but most great Jazzers on Guitar and especially Sax don't sound 'careful' .
But he sounds perfect on the Bach and his time is right on for Classical against the click ...
Can you post a few examples of the playing straight upbeats against medium swing ? I want to make sure I can hear that or see if I can ...also if they don't do it for a whole Solo ...I should hear the difference in the phrase .
Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-06-2018 at 11:54 PM.
10-07-2018, 05:02 PM #194
Careful is a good word. Careful I think is where a metronome gets you and working very hard on evening out articulation.
With AR, his playing is somewhat diverse - his tele and strat playing is a bit different to his 335 playing. But he does the very even 8th note thing to a high art. It's an aesthetic and yes it comes at least partly from Bach. There's a 'held back' thing with AR which be kind of mesmerising and powerful in its own way. BTW I've probably studied AR more than George (which isn't saying much lol!)
With the straight on swung it's such a nuance it can be a bit hard to track down, but here's a nice example from Grant Green who for is such a zen master of this type of stuff, solo starts around 4:00 with the most sublime medium tempo swing feel. Later on he straightens the upbeat (to my ears) briefly for a certain stylistic effect, and then for a bit more of a prolonged time. It's kind of typical for Blue Note horn players to use this, too... You'll hear it I reckon.
On a related note, isn't amazing how his triplets don't sound like triplets?
I think part of what makes this possible is what Philly Joe is doing, it becomes quite possible to impose a straight rhythm on it and that to swing HARD. I hear Miles doing the same thing, but would need to track down.
10-08-2018, 12:10 PM #195
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
I hear the rhythm timing changes in Green's solo . .
I can feel the Drummer doing something
but can't figure it out (lucky I don't need to ).
I like the slightly 'Soul Jazz 'feel of this Group. More fun to hear .
I have heard of Green but oddly he is more known [ magazines etc.] for his Rhythm Style right ?
Oops -they forgot to mention his great Solos and feel -I have read Posts about him here though.
He is so cool ...he quotes a straight blues lick ..during the more 'straight time ' then
the Drummer does that flam thing and pushes Green back into swing on the last part of the Solo- I can't fully get exactly what the drummer is doing ( !) .
I played unplugged to my phone and it was very easy to play to this Tune (NOT doing the subtle time feel changes Green does).
He does a decending chromatic 'turnaround ' kinda - in his Solo that no one is actually playing - cool idea .
Rodgers - yes I heard his Strat Playing a bit. He is very ' no spam ' ..lol I have a lot of that in my playing .
To get close to Rodgers feel - playing Classical type time and slightly legato is the Key for me - but I have to be 'careful '.
When I play with my 'normal 'swing - I don't have to be 'careful' at all ..
Triplets - as I said I can do triplets Classical OR Jazz across 3 strings which will surprise people so ..IF I do it like Classical...totally even ( slightly less perfect than Rodgers admittedly ) even no accents equidistant etc. it's very even and more boring .
IF I do the same thing in R&B or Hard Swing Jazz ..
The 4th note ( the first note in the second grouping of 3 ) is accented ( louder ) and moved forward along with the second grouping very slighty.
I can do this across strings at double time in triads or 7th 3rd Root patterns all over the neck almost like a drummer....don't think it's possible without out alt picking because alt repeats perfectly even at shred speeds.
When I have a CD for sale - we can have some contests with semi famous people-
I have a sense of humor about my Playing and shortcomings so will be fun.
Will I be hard to cut on my own changes ?
Absolutely ...even semi famous Players...
But can creative Jazzers including guys on this Forum play prettier and cooler and better lines than me and chord melody and lots of stuff that I would never 'hear '?Over all types of changes ?
Absolutely .Happens all the time...lol.
I just do it by feel but this is very evident in Ragtime -twisting Chet Atkins style Travis Picking into Ragtime on Guitar was something I started a long time ago when I was doing a lot of finger style Acoustic- I found it much harder than regular folk stuff .
Anyway ..the idea of <consciously >
swinging upbeats in order to cheat Mother Nature into making us have time feel near as good as Master Players who did it naturally ( lol ) is a really great idea IMO.
The Mobley Tune is simple enough that I was able to do silly wide interval 5ths 6ths 7ths upbeat sync while doing an overall descending pattern and it creates a strong syncopated swing .(!) Not subtle either ...it is really there.
I can really hear this in Ragtime Piano Players and the triplets ..
The * first 'computer programmers ' who cut the holes in the Piano Rolls could show us how they changed the holes from Classical/even time to 'RAG-time' especially if we asked *them about triplets ...I bet . *Or their grandsons.
I should add after just fingerpicking on my Guitar ...that for Modern 'hard swing' stuff...the strict alternating bass ( low strings on Guitar - not actual Bassline ) like in Ragtime or Atkins / Tommy Emanuel type fingerpicking ALSO has to be changed ...
Emmanuel -Virtuoso that he is might be able to do this in a snap ...just mentioning it...
I am thinking if I listen to Art Tatum - he was a significant departure from Ragtime in his left hand ...I'd rather feel good about my chops than listen to him right now ...lol.
EDIT - as Hep to the Jive points out below -I have confused Freddy Green with Grant Green in this Post!
Oops . .Thanks for the catch .
Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-08-2018 at 12:46 PM.
10-08-2018, 12:34 PM #196
10-08-2018, 12:44 PM #197
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- Dec 2010
Yes that's correct ! I DID have them confused ...! Thanks .
10-08-2018, 03:19 PM #198
Slightly soul jazz? SLIGHTLY?
10-08-2018, 04:44 PM #199
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
Ok...My second mistake .lol
I see they were called that in the press etc.
Mobley's Bebop Blues might have led me to think it was mainstream Jazz then.
I think I deserve a lot of credit for recognizing which part was the Guitar and which was the Sax ...I got that right on first hearing!
Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-09-2018 at 05:59 AM.
10-08-2018, 05:29 PM #200
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- Oct 2015
I think the first computer programmers were actually weavers, using some sort of technology to control looms.
The first computer designed was The Analytical Engine by Charles Babbage. He never completed it. Mid 1800's.
10-08-2018, 06:51 PM #201
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- Dec 2010
@RpJazz ..wow.Old rusty computers.
But is my assumption correct that on Piano Rolls they had to move the holes to get the ' time' right ?
Next Thread ' Do white piano rolls lag behind the beat more than the tan colored ones ?'
I mean even if you look at Adam Rodgers versus Benson on a DAW - you won't be able to sit there and say ..".all I have to do is move my playing an average of 3.4 milliseconds forward and I will be like Benson".
If you could do that from seeing it in a DAW ...you would be able to do it by adjusting anyway .
I assume that I as a very non-gifted Guitarist - can do it because I was always able to do tight rhythm or fingerstyle Guitar Parts even when young in Recording.
Play the Rhythm Guitar part in Benson's Take 5 [ the R&B part ] - there is no subjective 'feel ' thing it's either 'ON' or 'off time '.
Classical is like that too .The Solos get a little leeway but Guitarists in general are sloppier than everyone else -
THAT'S what Miles should have said..lol.
Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-09-2018 at 09:33 AM.