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  1. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyburgos View Post
    Swing is about playing with the beat, to my ears
    I agree with this completely.

    If I play ( and actually anyone else - but I am not telling people what to do - lol- ) quarter or eight note triplets locked to a metronome or beat and
    *>evenly spaced including over bar lines <
    It swings already , it can not avoid swinging .

    It can be pushed a bit or relaxed a bit or accented etc to pulse even more or glide even more or track ( emphasize certain harmonic rhythms more or less ) a little differently but to my ears it all comes from that .
    I once played a 'swing' Head on a Tune written by someone else and didn't even know it was 'swing' The Piano Player/writer just played it and then kinda sang it - it was fast like a Blues Scale oriented Fusion -( Emin7 - Fmaj 7 ( harmonic Fusion not the loud Rock stuff ) for me until I got it .( I did not know it was Jazz lol.)
    Some Jazz Musicians seem to make it a real zen ( mysterious ) , or complicated issue, "swing".

    I find that Triplets, sextuplets always swing- then I can carry that over into other figures....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-19-2019 at 11:52 AM.

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  3. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I do feel like there is an increasing divide between the players who are coming out of say Church music, Benson etc and those that come out of ... err .... Rush and Joe Satriani....

    In the latter case the music is always a bit proggy in outlook.

    Which I can dig, but what I actually miss a little is a synthesis of the two. Some of that feel in the more ‘contemporary’ jazz music... could it even work? I dunno.
    Interesting . It works -you can listen to Steely Dan ( Denny Diaz , Wayne Shorter ) and hear it or Eric Gales and some others - although I think the distortion and too loud in the mix playing of Rockers tends to obscure the Rhythm track...
    Vernon Reid- in the Group with Nona Hendrix - called 'Material' was starting to do it but went the Distorted Rocker route rather than create something new( which is harder).
    I am amazed that a Musician like Steve Vai ( is supposed to be )has not explored playing over chords and less squeely Rock - but he's Rich and Famous - so what do I know ... they have an Audience.
    I was referring to when he sounds like a Monkey chasing a Steam Roller - not just 80's Rock Tones.I haven't heard much of what he does I suppose ...I am not in listen mode mostly.

    To understand what I am saying - and I lean naturally toward Church ...( depends on Tune or track also )

    You Guys can look at and listen to
    'So What ' by Miles Davis and it's R&B Cousin - 'Cold Sweat ' which is inspired by ' So What ' I just heard one of the Jazzers in Brown's band say that in the' Mr Dynamite - The Rise of James Brown ' documentary.

    The ' Jazz Musicians' in Brown's Band used to get fined for playing late , missing beats etc.

    So time feel is time feel - R&B Players tend to play tighter than others / Jazz Musicians who play with percussionists have to play tighter as well usually .

    Time Feel ( and often technique ) are usually not directly connected to Theory/Training etc .

    Efficient technique ( smaller motions) or very' confident technique' ( regardless of efficiency -with some limitations-) where the Player is living, thriving confidently in the Tune' Rhythms - rather than WAITING for something to tell him where the beat is - can lead to better tightness I think ...

    But technique enables time feel - IMO - it does not create it ..if Zephyr the picking Goddess - gave you Benson's chops, or Wes's chops etc.
    You would be able to Play what you 'hear' in that Style easily - BUT the note choices and time feel don't go with the Technique - you gotta 'hear' or feel that for yourself IMO.



    The Players who routinely got fined by JB were not white....

    Miles sounds to me like he would have had to tighten up to Play -'Cold Sweat' ...lol.
    He probably would have done it instantly - or would he have been fined ?

    I suspect- you guys can try it - that you can ALL 'tighten up ' easily to play the Rhythm Guitar on 'Cold Sweat ' BUT I suspect that to jump voicings and inversions (fluid comping or whatever ) you will not be able to instantly - but will need to
    kinda rehearse a little ...

    Soloing over it will feel different for most I think.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-19-2019 at 11:12 AM.

  4. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Interesting . It works -you can listen to Steely Dan and hear it or Eric Gales and some others - although I think the distortion and too loud in the mix playing of Rockers tends to obscure the Rhythm track...
    Vernon Reid- in the Group with Nona Hendrix - called 'Material' was starting to do it but went the Distorted Rocker route rather than create something new( which is harder).
    I am amazed that a Musician like Steve Vai ( is supposed to be )has not explored playing over chords and less squeely Rock - but he's Rich and Famous - so what do I know ... they have an Audience.
    Well to be fair to Steve, he has done a fairly wide range of stuff, but yeah most are in it for the shreddy rock.

    To understand what I am saying - and I lean naturally toward Church ...( depends on Tune or track also )

    You Guys can look at and listen to
    'So What ' by Miles Davis and it's R&B Cousin - 'Cold Sweat ' which is inspired by ' So What ' I just heard one of the Jazzers in Brown's band say that in the' Mr Dynamite - The Rise of James Brown ' documentary.

    The ' Jazz Musicians' in Brown's Band used to get fined for playing late , missing beats etc.

    So time feel is time feel - R&B Players tend to play tighter than others / Jazz Musicians who play with percussionists have to play tighter as well usually .

    Time Feel ( and often technique ) are usually not directly connected to Theory/Training etc .

    Efficient technique ( smaller motions) or very' confident technique' ( regardless of efficiency -with some limitations-) where the Player is living, thriving confidently in the Tune' Rhythms - rather than WAITING for something to tell him where the beat is - can lead to better tightness I think ...
    Sit back... they can drag... Certainly for me, I can audiate what I want rhythmically, but I have to shed, warm up and really work at it to get it out so it really pops. And I think my technique is pretty much sorted out.

    The Players who routinely got fined by JB were not white....

    Miles sounds to me like he would have had to tighten up to Play -'Cold Sweat' ...lol.
    He probably would have done it instantly - or would he have been fined ?
    Ha - maybe? Straight 8's on one, swing time on the other. Miles is very tight to a different part of the beat... I think Miles would have valued the music enough to get it right. Big JB fan.

    I suspect- you guys can try it - that you can ALL 'tighten up ' easily to play the Rhythm Guitar on 'Cold Sweat ' BUT I suspect that to jump voicings and inversions (fluid comping or whatever ) you will not be able to instantly - but will need to
    kinda rehearse a little ...

    Soloing over it will feel different for most I think.
    I think the same is true for jazz. I certainly find this. You still have to put the notes (and chords) in the right place.

  5. #254

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    I just want to make one point about groove.

    Part of it is playing with energy -- even attitude, perhaps.

    I know that if I remind myself to make things snap and pop, I get closer to the ideal than if I don't make a point of it.

    I've noticed that some great players play every note like that.

    I don't know if that feels relaxed to them, or if it feels edgy. I do know that for me to do it, I have to remind myself about it and I have to be careful not to let it relax or sag. I can't relax or I lose it.

    So, based on this observation, and speaking only for myself, it's not a matter of acquisition of a skill -- unless that skill is consistency. It's not worrying about the micro-note-placement, or articulating upbeats a little stronger or anything like that. All of that stuff seems to flow naturally when I make sure I'm thinking about getting that feel to the music.

    If you're playing a standard, scat something -- and then scat the same bars -- this time imagining you're Sinatra in 1960 backed by the Billy May band. Scat with energy and make every note pop. If you can do that, you can swing fine. You just need to put that energy onto the guitar.

  6. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    If you're playing a standard, scat something -- and then scat the same bars -- this time imagining you're Sinatra in 1960 backed by the Billy May band. Scat with energy and make every note pop. If you can do that, you can swing fine. You just need to put that energy onto the guitar.
    This is worth reiterating - there can be a gap between what you naturally audiate and what you play on the guitar.

    In this case the one note improv exercise can be useful - scat a phrase, play it on one note, and so on. This could be a good way to get started with Jordan's quadrads actually, I think would be easier to use this stuff with fewer pitch options.

    So those students are easy to teach!

    OTOH I have met quite a few students who honestly can't scat interesting phrases rhythmically.

  7. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    This is worth reiterating - there can be a gap between what you naturally audiate and what you play on the guitar.

    In this case the one note improv exercise can be useful - scat a phrase, play it on one note, and so on. This could be a good way to get started with Jordan's quadrads actually, I think would be easier to use this stuff with fewer pitch options.
    So those students are easy to teach!

    OTOH I have met quite a few students who honestly can't scat interesting phrases rhythmically.
    Hmm ... Can someone who can't scat an interesting phrase rhythmically, play one on guitar?

    I have also noticed that what I audiate (hear in my mind?) is not what I tend to play if I don't focus on it. That has led me to practice getting closer to the audiation. I believe that Herb Ellis, Oscar Peterson and many others scatted constantly while they soloed.

    Is that what you meant?

  8. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Hmm ... Can someone who can't scat an interesting phrase rhythmically, play one on guitar?
    Not in my experience.

    I have also noticed that what I audiate (hear in my mind?) is not what I tend to play if I don't focus on it. That has led me to practice getting closer to the audiation. I believe that Herb Ellis, Oscar Peterson and many others scatted constantly while they soloed.

    Is that what you meant?
    Yes.

    But you don't have to scat. I've found singing a line in your 'minds ear' and then playing it as casually as possible is a very good way of practicing lines.

    There's a Hal Galper video demonstrating this brilliantly at 7:10:



    You play the line - sing it as LOUDLY AS POSSIBLE internally - and play it again (but kind of casually, without too much effort)

    Your hands follow your ears. I suspect if you do this properly you will have no trouble with timing, phrasing or execution (provided your technique is solid and you are warmed up etc).

  9. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Not in my experience.



    Yes.

    But you don't have to scat. I've found singing a line in your 'minds ear' and then playing it as casually as possible is a very good way of practicing lines.

    There's a Hal Galper video demonstrating this brilliantly at 7:10:



    You play the line - sing it as LOUDLY AS POSSIBLE internally - and play it again (but kind of casually, without too much effort)

    Your hands follow your ears. I suspect if you do this properly you will have no trouble with timing, phrasing or execution (provided your technique is solid and you are warmed up etc).
    Along the same line ... do you think it makes sense to play things you can't sing? Seems to me that doing so means that your fingers, or some practiced patterns are in control and that the result may be competent but it won't be art. But, then again, people find ways to make all kinds of approaches work.

    My view, which has varied over time, is that I want my mind's ear to be in control as much as possible. It gets hard sometimes because the mind's ear doesn't worry about fingering and I often imagine great sounding rapid lines I can't begin to play. Or, with odd, unfamiliar harmony, my mind's ear is lost.

  10. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Along the same line ... do you think it makes sense to play things you can't sing? Seems to me that doing so means that your fingers, or some practiced patterns are in control and that the result may be competent but it won't be art. But, then again, people find ways to make all kinds of approaches work.
    Just cos you can’t sing something don’t mean you can’t hear it, right?

    I can hear Queen of the Night but I can’t sing it.

    My view, which has varied over time, is that I want my mind's ear to be in control as much as possible. It gets hard sometimes because the mind's ear doesn't worry about fingering and I often imagine great sounding rapid lines I can't begin to play. Or, with odd, unfamiliar harmony, my mind's ear is lost.
    Yeah, I think listening and getting used to music is a lot of it. Not always mega attentive transcription either....

  11. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Just cos you can’t sing something don’t mean you can’t hear it, right?

    I can hear Queen of the Night but I can’t sing it.

    ...
    Do you find that you can play lines you like that you can't sing?

    My experience is that I like the lines I can sing and they tend to be more rhythmically interesting.

    But, I often find that I can imagine lines which are not totally specific in my imagination. So, for example, I may imagine a dramatic high note, or maybe it will be a generally descending line which I want to trail off at the end. . I can't necessarily sing what's in my mind, but I have an idea about what I want it to sound like. Often, but, sadly, not always, my fingers will find notes that fit with what I imagined.

    There is a cognitive subtlety here. If I know a melody, I can start anywhere on the neck, any finger, and play it, often with no mistakes. There is no conscious thought required. So, I'm trying to utilize that ability when soloing. Hear the melody in mind and execute it without intervening thought.

    But, when I force myself to sing I'm adding something else to that process. And, when I'm trying to play something that's vague in my mind's ear, yet again, something else is happening.

    In fact, if I remind myself to make the notes pop with energy to play good groove, I'm interrupting the process in still another way.

    If I have to think about the chord because I can't hear it clearly enough in my mind,the process is generally changed for the worse. In that situation, I cope by thinking about the scraps of theory that I can apply quickly enough. Chord tones, arps, a handful of licks, scales, modes, and phantom chords (my term for playing a line on one chord/progression against a different chord/progression). Imagination takes a back seat. If I can execute the idea it won't sound like clams, but it won't sound inspired either.

  12. #261

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    @rpjazzguitar-love your Term ..
    'Phantom Chords' - a huge vast topic and resource for improv. and even writing melodies.

    You could start a Thread or write a book on that one .....you could trademark the Term also .

    I do more basic versions of 'phantom chords' - in improv. - but I like the term a lot ! - because of what it implies .

    I think ultimately ...we can ' sing' mentally ( preferably using our own Guitar sound as the 'mental virtual instrument') ( you can experiment with other 'virtual mental instruments ' but might annoy yourself -lol).

    Playing anything on Guitar then mentally 'hearing' the next notes and playing them ' in time ' or 'in sync' OR 'pre hearing ' mentally the end of the line or phrase and then Playing it can be a great way to transcend 'Theory ' and just Play -( and juggle rhythm patterns etc)
    because most people's mind will not feed them ' bad notes' or notes foreign to the existing Harmony .

    As with all things Guitar- and Music- just one possible way - not the only way or even the 'right way' of course. (But it works) .

    OK - all together now let's sing up a scale with a seventh interval after each note .....lol .

    Become a singer to improve your lines and a Dancer to improve your 'time' - you're Sammy Davis Jr. or Michael Jackson .

    With no time to practice Guitar...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-20-2019 at 02:27 PM.

  13. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    @rpjazzguitar-love your Term ..
    'Phantom Chords' - a huge vast topic and resource for improv. and even writing melodies.

    You could start a Thread or write a book on that one .....you could trademark the Term also ..
    It's my terminology, but the idea is commonplace. I tend to transcribe only short passages that catch my ear. In many cases, I find that the line is a completely straightforward one, say, simply running an arp (or series of them). But, the chord-of-the-moment (or series) is different from the arp. The fact that it's an arp gives it structure and the ear accepts it (well, depending on the choice of arp).The fact that it's the "wrong" arp, gives it harmonic interest. Execute the line with good time feel and suddenly, you're playing jazz.

  14. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    It's my terminology, but the idea is commonplace. I tend to transcribe only short passages that catch my ear. In many cases, I find that the line is a completely straightforward one, say, simply running an arp (or series of them). But, the chord-of-the-moment (or series) is different from the arp. The fact that it's an arp gives it structure and the ear accepts it (well, depending on the choice of arp).The fact that it's the "wrong" arp, gives it harmonic interest. Execute the line with good time feel and suddenly, you're playing jazz.
    Exactly - I am superimposing many of the same voicings I play as chords in linear fashion but not the same ones as in the Tune or Track - just across the strings in Rhythm - but I like 'Phantom ' because it implies we might play linear chords that lead to a chord tone present on the tune but that arp is not present in the tune - it's a linear interpolated chord , or a linear passing chord ...I am playing an advanced form of R&B but the improv is exactly like Jazz- more aggressive sometimes
    so linear vii of the root or a chord tone , or IV of I as an interpolation , in addition to linear subs , linear 4ths etc as long as resolved to the destination chord and not rhythmically awkward - lots to explore that works smoothly even in Pop .
    'Phantom' even implies that we might 'ghost note ' a quick 3 or 4 note Arp ( not the chord we are playing over) and sneak it in there and resolve ...like the chord is Dmin 7 to Amin 7 and sticking a linear Bbmaj7 resolving to one of the Amin7 tones ...a lot of my voicings can play in multiple locations over the parent chord too .'.Phantom 'Chords ...spooky cool .

    This voicing 1 1 1 x 3 3 over Gminor Parent chord starts on bVII

    But can also be built on i / iv/ v/ vi
    as an inside Arp , and a few other places for outside ...
    my goal is not to transcribe but to transcend lol.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-20-2019 at 06:31 PM.

  15. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Exactly - I am superimposing many of the same voicings I play as chords in linear fashion but not the same ones as in the Tune or Track - just across the strings in Rhythm - but I like 'Phantom ' because it implies we might play linear chords that lead to a chord tone present on the tune but that arp is not present in the tune - it's a linear interpolated chord , or a linear passing chord ...I am playing an advanced form of R&B but the improv is exactly like Jazz-
    so linear vii of the root or a chord tone , or IV of I as an interpolation , in addition to linear subs , linear 4ths etc as long as resolved to the destination chord and not rhythmically awkward - lots to explore that works smoothly even in Pop .
    'Phantom' even implies that we might 'ghost note ' a quick 3 or 4 note Arp ( not the chord we are playing over) and sneak it in there and resolve ...like the chord is Dmin 7 to Amin 7 and sticking a linear Bbmaj7 resolving to one of the Amin7 tones ...a lot of my voicings can play in multiple locations over the parent chord too .'.Phantom 'Chords ...spooky cool .
    I don't think there are any secrets about jazz, but this is a topic I don't see discussed that much, even though I hear it frequently.

    Take a tune and do a significant phantom reharmonization of some portion of it.

    Suppose the chords are Fmaj7/ Dm9 /G7#11 / /. That's what the comping instrument actually plays.

    Then, over it, you play simple lines on Dm9/ Dm9 Bm9/ Ebmaj/. Or maybe Amaj instead of Bm9.

    Or, in reverse: Dm9 Bm9 Abm9 Db9. Have the comper play that while you play on the original simple changes. Will sound great. I've done it -- by accident the first time because the pianist had a different chart. Probably the hippest 4 bars I ever played .. and was basically playing chord tones on a I iv II7#11. I probably played an F against an F#, something I couldn't have heard at the time, but because I was confidently executing my line (on Dm9) it worked.

    Or, a little more inside, Dm9 Gm9 (or Am9) followed by Ebmaj. Not all the notes are great, but you can easily omit or adjust the ones you don't like.

    Mimi Fox had a short take on this in her Arpeggios book and I understand it has been covered in other books too, although Mimi's is the only one I have that does this.

    I can recall transcribing a bit of Rodney Jones from Live on Planet Groove iirc. The line was ear catching as could be! It turned out to be similar to a rhythm bridge (A7, D7, G7 C7) or something like that, but against different chords.

    I get the feeling that some very hip sounding pros got there using this kind of device in their practice.

  16. #265

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    Yes. That is really cool stuff ...perfect for someone like me who is less like to 'hear' some cool outside stuff ( chops and time yes ) - great ear ...naah lol.

    But tricks like that using - related Arps or memorizing a vertical thing a slightly 'out ' arp - I can put those to work .... thanks for labeling it.
    Benson is a Master of this and fearless to do quick wild Arps even on Network TV - but we don't have to be that good to use this stuff .


    I think labeling in this case helps to explore it even though I knew you only invented the term but the label implies more ,thanks .

  17. #266

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    Saying as one member did that "Color don't matter" is the equivalent of saying history is irrelevant.

    What is any music, if not anyone, but a result of collective, and individual, histories?

    You can't separate culture from race. They share a historical lineage. They are the same.

    Americans, get very uncomfortable with discussing factual truths surrounding anything race. So I'm not surprised the original question of this thread was derailed.

    Jazz has a long history of players from all stripes. But anyone listening to Stan Getz, of migrant Ukrainian ancestry, and Coltrane, a southern descendent of African slaves, cannot deny their music is a reflection of their cultural differences. There is nothing negative about that.

    Celebrate the differences.

    Frankly, the bigger question could - should be, without the black struggle in America, would there have been a birth of jazz?
    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  18. #267

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    That is the million dollar question. If you take a person from Pennsylvania, and raise him in China learning the prevailing musical styles there, if he practices hard enough, will he be able to play as well and with the same passion as native Chinese? Will this especially be true if he has to share the same suffering and nurturing?

    God, I hate to get on race because many people just can't discuss it without getting angry, but I can tell you I have seen people from one raise raised in a different culture by adoptive parents and they tended to follow that culture. One good friend of mine ended up speaking Spanish, including the "Tex Mex" slang, playing guitar and pretty much embracing Mexican American heritage, including marrying into the ethnic group. He even had many of the mannerisms and styles of dress, and often talked insultingly of White Americans like he was not white, at least when it came to them not being able to understand certain cultural issues that were important to him.
    .

    I have been in a lot of mixed communities and have seen this type of thing time and time again. So, I question how much is in a person's genetics and how much is environmental. But, that is an age old question to which everyone that has given it thought, probably has their own ideas. Just my 2 cents worth.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 07-22-2019 at 09:34 PM.

  19. #268

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    I could not agree more. In the famous words of George Bush, "it's the environment stupid."

    There's no shame in discussing race, or racism, in jazz. The historical facts are there, and these experiences-facts are a part of the music's evolution. Is there a creation of bebop without the anger and discrimination experienced by jazz musicians of the 40's? And in its time, what impact did bebop have upon jazz? These questions about race and the evolution of jazz are inseparable.

    There should never be discomfort in a civil discussion of historical truths.

    BTW...one of the greatest musician's I've ever heard perform live jazz was a Ukrainian saxophonist of Kiev, Ukraine. While visiting Kiev, after his performance I had the privilege of speaking with him for hours. His main musical interest was classical music.
    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  20. #269

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    One of my favorite jazz musician quotes, which however you look at it is somewhat relevant to this discussion, is from Joe Henderson on the live at the Roxy recording of the Crusaders, which also featured the great Larry Carlton.

    "You know, a lot of people always ask us, say hey, how long have you been together? Now, I'm serious - I knew Joe Sample when Joe was about 6 years old - Right Joe? Hey, believe me, you know. My mama, his mama - We all, you know - same neighborhood!" - Wayne Henderson



    In a greater sense we're all a product result 'of our neighborhoods', i.e., experiences.
    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  21. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Miles sounds to me like he would have had to tighten up to Play -'Cold Sweat' ...lol.
    He probably would have done it instantly - or would he have been fined ?
    Showing our age! 'Sock it to me now'

    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  22. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    Showing our age! 'Sock it to me now'

    True - I am old lol...but have a modern Guitar style....modern Music... R&B inspired but Harmonically Expanded ...my ear as a listener gets bored on one key music and too much static harmony- .
    Most wouldn't recognize my stuff as R&B just listening to the Guitar alone --- sounds more like Jazz but would be more obvious when I do Production on it and the Solos are like Jazz , rhythm guitar is more active regardless of the Harmony - I was always like that. But could not play Solos from my mind before- not a Soloist- before. I did some pretty cool stuff on Acoustic when young but on Pop/ Rock ....


    As a little kid interestingly I heard 'Green Onions' and 'Take 5 ' as similar -that R&B Vibe ...probably the Harmonic Rhythms.. but only heard a little Jazz ..
    I detoured into Jazz recently to get further Musically but not the Repertoire - I don't find most Broadway Show Tunes inspiring frankly....and to make them inspiring while not owning the Rights makes no sense ...

    I would be dressing up Broadway Show Tunes from another Era in African American clothing essentially lol...and I could do it regardless of my Race or Origin ...
    My DNA traces back to Africa anyway - you just need to go back much much further lol.
    The Grandmother to us all is probably from Africa (they call her Lucy I think ).

    To me Parker and Gillespie sounded to me like they were creating something that AVOIDED sounding like Africa -intentionally .

    I am not a Historian so don't care much about all that...knowing the derivation is cool speaking the Language rhythmically more important - to me that is the least academic part of Music ...

    I hear what Parker was doing in Blues for Alice - fun to improv over.

    But he sounded like
    he was really going for eloquence and sophistication ( and he certainly was ) but he avoided 'going for the kill ' in his Blues to my ears like he was holding back from going super eloquent all the way to RAW ....in one tune.

    Here's a White old guy celebrating his Black Inspired Roots:


    Some people can express a wider range of emotion through the Guitar or any instrument regardless of color ....and it does not have to be Blues.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-28-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  23. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Yes. That is really cool stuff ...perfect for someone like me who is less like to 'hear' some cool outside stuff ( chops and time yes ) - great ear ...naah lol.

    But tricks like that using - related Arps or memorizing a vertical thing a slightly 'out ' arp - I can put those to work .... thanks for labeling it.
    Benson is a Master of this and fearless to do quick wild Arps even on Network TV - but we don't have to be that good to use this stuff .


    I think labeling in this case helps to explore it even though I knew you only invented the term but the label implies more ,thanks .
    '

    This month's issue of Guitar Player has an article on superimposing arpeggios over chord changes. Pretty much the same thing we were talking about. The magazine says there's an audio file at guitarplayer.com/sept19_lesson1 but the link didn't work.

  24. #273

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    Here's one of my favorite players who is so patient with the groove...but can 'bring it' when necessary.

    David T. Walker plays slightly behind the groove, but in such a soulful, emotional way, it works. That's why he's one of the most recorded studio guitarists since the late 60's. Listen as he works his magic through the tune, "An-Noor" with his quartet. The audience responds to his groove shifts as if he's a preacher delivering a sermon.


  25. #274

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    If you want to sound African American when you Play IMO - you really can do it quite easily by learning to Play tightly synced quarter and eighth note triplets and if you can FEEL them and either add some attitude - will resemble Benson type Playing , or relax a bit , and it will still Swing , people usually lay back a little on Ballads in R&B ...but he's not behind the beat and out of sync with the drummer -maybe behind a bit intentionally - good call and Post .
    Beautiful Player -David T Walker.
    Audience loves his groove - agreed.

    You can hear Cannonball Adderly on ' Mercy Mercy Mercy ' with a similar time feel to the above Guitarist - but the whole pulse of the Tune is like that ...they are 'Synced ' in the Horn Sections ..
    .It's a Soul Ballad ...and the Melody starts on the ' and ' of 1 - giving it a laid back feel .....

    Pushing the Beat intentionally or laying back intentionally is different from being out of sync with the Drummer / Percussion .





    IMO and IME - as long as you sync you can use different time feels and the Audience will still 'get it ' ..and you will still be tight in 'Ensemble Playing ' .

    For example Al DiMeola and George Benson both Sync very well including with Percussion with different time feels - but they do Sync.

    Sync = rhythmic unison =To some main downbeats....often .

    *Usually every '1 'or every other '1 ' at least.

    If it helps you to sync to upbeats too go ahead but * is my advice . Or do both . Syncing upbeats is a cool tool though ...edited my smug remark lol.

    One of my favorite Guitar Solos which is actually close to R&B and even Jazz does have beautifully funky synced upbeats though - is 'Beat It' by Michael Jackson with Eddie Van Halen where he turned into an R&B Rocker ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-28-2019 at 09:51 PM.