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  1. #201

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    White people show up when they damn well feel like showing up; it’s a cultural thing. If you didn’t grow up in our culture you’ll never truly understand it. I don’t answer the phone if I don’t feel like it either. You don’t like it, have your attorney contact my attorney and Bernie will rip your guy a new @sshole, that’s why Bernie makes the big bucks. Stop calling me.
    Ignorance is agony.


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  3. #202

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    Here is a bass players view of "laying back" or playing behind the beat. Same thing or something different?


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  4. #203

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    I don't think that's a good example of creatively laying back successfully.

    Because the Bassist is NOT landing on the 1 of each measure OR the 1 of every 2nd Measure.

    Normally in R&B , Pop , Reggae, Funk you can hit the ONE then do a slightly laid back riff or line or part ...then BAM you jump on that 1 when it comes around.

    And I should add there are other downbeats even if playing over bar lines.

    Syncing to major downbeats ( not always the '1' at key points is how Classical /Rock / etc....Musicians let everyone know they are 'in time ' or even better create the time feel
    Dancers also do this

    You can try it on this Groove ( not sure why this tune popped into my head- ):

    Hit the 1 then do some slightly laid back lick ...but bash the 1 when it comes around hit a chord on the 1 then a simple part a few notes lagged .....sets the listener up for the big ONE when it comes around ...

    Play along and see if you feel it.

    Remembering this is mostly Machine quantized stuff- This Track is NOT an example of behind the Beat Playing-

    It is something you can Practice behind the Beat playing - as long as you nail the ONE every measure or every second measure.

    Miles was talking about some Guitar Players who 'lag' unintentionally.

    This Bass Player ( and almost all good ones ) nail the Time extremely well - and I am quite sure he can also at will.

    So this Guy is doing this purposely.

    And I imagine he could push the beat , lag it and land on the 1 at will .

    I merely don't think he did a good example here of what you might actually USE.

    You can do a blind test :
    Don't [ Do NOT ] tell or reveal the Title or Caption of the 'Behind the Beat ' Title .

    Do NOT discuss that 'Topic'

    And Play the Video for a 'recording engineer' , or Producer , someone who does Music for TV or Film etc etc.

    And they'll ( some of them ) say that it sounds like Computer 'Latency ' uncompensated in his headphones and he is playing ,

    To a delayed monitor mix in his headphones causing him to be ' late ' in time compared to the actual track.

    He merely sounds ' out of Sync ' to average listeners.

    However - IF you never Sync to the One
    even in polyrhythms [ as I said - it might be EVERY '1 ' or every second measure '1'
    Or if we are talking about polymeter it might be longer than that.

    I would add that longer tuplet patterns might Sync to the 3 ( in 4-4) I just played one - can't count it but it lands on every '3 '.

    So I guess I would say 1 or some major downbeat but on the odd groupings that land on a downbeat like 3 or even syncopated stuff - you can't miss the 1 for too long or conflict with it ....or people will say you sound 'off time '.

    To correct/focus the cloudy long stuff above and add emphasis for clarity.

    Music in General You can syncopate , you can play behind the beat , you can play polyrhythms , even polymeters ...

    BUT - you must SYNC to Downbeats at some points or people( especially Conductors/ Instructors/ Music Contractors/Producers/audience( instinctively ) etc. will merely think you are 'off time'

    Playing with percussionists etc. reveals this even more and as I have said R&B modern Dance Styles etc not necessarily the 1 but downbeats must frequently be synced .
    Dancers must SYNC their feet to downbeats or they will be out ...flunk audition...

    Oscar Peterson sounds like a percussionist frequently to me ... swings forward but dead on beat...and tighter than Sax Players.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-13-2019 at 04:40 AM.

  5. #204
    There's a difference between having enough control to do something intentionally and lacking the control and doing it unintentionally.

    In the art world, for example, Jackson Pollock is probably a good example. His works seem messy and uncontrolled, but they're actually incredibly precise.

  6. #205

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    @Shadow of the Sun -well said.

    When you listen to George Benson probably the tightest time sense and ability to Play it that way ...(of all Guitarists).

    On the Stevie Wonder ballad 'Lately' ( what a Song ...).

    GB intentionally lags some of the Melody ..
    and so beautifully ( with vibrato too ) - just as you say ....

    He also on one version I think playing with his thumb ( same time feel !- ) .

    This is what Shadow is talking about ...

    And the melodic fills- pure artistry ...

    Also - I sometimes feel Jazz Guitarists play behind the Beat a little more than I 'hear ' it but Jazz Guitarists almost NEVER play behind the Beat on R&B and Funk - they usually kill it - but not kill it like Benson or Brecker because they have too much lag time and often trip up .

    You HAVE to land on the one sooner or later to let contractor/ studio owner/ producer/ bandleader / audience know and feel you are not late..or off time.

    Edit - As Irez 87 mentions later - you don't have to END on the 1 and I should add
    emphasize ANY downbeat also works to lock in and show it - but sure - it sounds great to have a little blip on the upbeat - or a big blip.
    Thanks for correction.

    I should also Add IMO to what I say above to not be as preachy ...

    You can hear a lot of what I am saying when you listen to some of Brecker's stuff ...

    Where there's a triplet or sextuplet pattern but occasionally a group of 7 it builds rhythmic tension in the line then give the listener the big long note on the ONE eventually - maybe after a few measures but it's not like you're out of Sync during the mayhem tension part...

    I don't know about this because I read it somewhere - I am doing it .

    Ooh here's Mr John Coltrane playing
    Equinox - and the Rhythm Section is damn close to (better ) Hip Hop R&B like 50 years ahead !

    !¡What a Groove on the Intro !

    Actually all the way thru ..but especially the Intro.

    Here Trane sounds like R&B /Church Sax Player ...but a little of that otherworldy vibe

    Hear the super effective behind the beat Playing too...Trane's time feel is often not as straight ahead as this to my ears ..

    Total Badass track like I complain Jazz doesn't have ....oops .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-22-2019 at 11:23 AM.

  7. #206

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    What Robertkoa is talking about is...well... incredibly important and true.

    See, I do agree with you sometimes, Robertkoa

    Even if you don't always place a hit (I sound like a beat mobster) on the BIG one, you HAVE to feel the BIG one.

    That could be the downbeat for every two measures, or the downbeat that marks every four measures.

    I call it phraseology, but I'm sure there's a better name out there.

    I originally posting something very similar, but I moved it to the Performance Ear Training thread.

    The concept is called MACRO time. You learn to feel the beginning and ending of a phrase of time


    1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

    But you actually hear it as

    1...............1.................1 (I tried to get the big ONE's to line up, but my fonts and margins are

    always wonky on JGF. Notice how there's no counting between the ONE's. You mark that downbeat and feel the space in between. I only gave an example for feeling every two measures. It looks a little different for 4 measure phrases or 8--I wrote about this early on in the Performance Ear Training thread)

    Why is this important? Exactly what RobertKoa said. You can do whatever you want with the time feel. Hell you can even super impose metric modulation and interpret the spaces as 3/4 over 4/4 or 5/4 over 4/4--jazz musicians do this a lot.

    However, laying back, pushing forward, using metric modulation, all that is all gonna sound like shite if you can't hear the BIG ONE--the temporal phrase.

    Remember, I never said you have to always play the BIG ONE. Charlie Parker's phrases didn't always end on the downbeat. Actually, a lot them them ended on the and of 4, or the and of 1, or the and of 2--so on and so forth--Chris 77 might have a better idea. But you better believe Charlie Parker knew EXACTLY where the BIG ONE was in the phrase.

    Dave Frank also talks about this with double time lines. You play a double time line, but you make it end on the BIG ONE. I am currently practicing this, and it helps you shape the dynamics of the double time line as well.

    this stuff can be applied to ballads or up up tempo playing (my top is now 260 while still being musical--IF I know the tune well enough)

  8. #207

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    Deep thoughts:
    If you play the note "behind the beat", the common interpretation is that your note comes late after the beat... yet, if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right.

    Anyway, I have heard nobody play so far behind the beat as Sonny Rollins, who not only lags behind the beat, he lags behind the beat behind that beat...

    White musicians lagging behind the beat-sr-jpg
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    ... if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right....
    I believe this is important, but I totally do not understand, why would something be written before the beat, if it is played after the beat?
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  10. #209

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    There are a couple of research papers that are interesting but not conclusive on the matter of lag generally.

    All jazz soloists so far examined appear to lag the beat to some extent. Some are more consistent in how they do this than others: Gerry Mulligan is less consistent than Freddie Hubbard.

    However tempo and articulation are a determinant here. There hasn’t really been enough research to clinch it.

    For myself, I sound most relaxed, swinging and precise when I nail the upbeat but relax on the beat, and that synch usually happens when i am hearing the line clearly in my mind’s ear, and play in a relaxed way. So it’s something intuitive although I think one’s awareness can be heightened.

    This is something you can play around with on a DAW.

    I’ll attach links to the papers when I have a moment. They are quite interesting.

  11. #210

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    I like that upbeat reference for creating really funky syncopated rhythm parts , semi fingerpicked - I am able to grok it on single lines ..

    But I haven't done it enough on single lines and I tend to go

    'Wow this is really cool' - then fall off the bicycle .and back to downbeats.

    It is slightly beyond me in actual playing to just fly around that way - it seems to generate really syncopated single lines too but
    it's bass ackwards for me somewhat ( my limitation) but really cool with wide interval leaps with high notes on the upbeats . ..

    When finger or pick and fingers it does the same thing for me - not speaking of single lines but wanna be piano player rhythm stuff -it's easier on rhythm parts .

    I hear Charlie Parker where he sounds like he does that ( do you hear it that way ?).

    Easier for me to play like 60 - 80% of Brecker[ just Rhythms NOT substitutions and melodic content - that's 9.4 % maybe] than Parker- seems like I can muscle my way thru Brecker but CP is too graceful to do that - he's not a Gutbucket R&B Church type Player ...Coltrane either...
    sounds like they both avoided that - obviously easy for them if they wanted to..

    There's a minor blues by Trane - cool behind the beat thing too where he is more
    R&B /Church ....but he is not like Brecker/ Benson/ David Sanborn time feel ( to me ) most of the time - here sounds more like Brecker ( obviously other way around )- just how I hear it ...not 'correct' or anything .....

    Except Trane here :as in my edited earlier post...

    Edit: [Per Irez87- thanks ] My references to the 1 or the 'big 1 ' every few measures or 'big Downbeat anywhere' that I land on , nail target rhythmically ( like most people) doesn't mean the phrase has to end on a 4 or a 1 just some big downbeat somewhere ...the beboppers often seem to put a little 'and' blip after the ' big downbeat ' I just noticed [ not that I am a model for time - lol] I often have a longer note with vibrato at the end of a long phrase and sometimes do a blip on an upbeat .

    Where I really jump on the 1 or every other 1 is on my Pick and Fingers Rhythm parts
    which sound quite Clavinet or Piano- like .

    Some ' Historical References ' say the name BeBop came from the sound of Gillespie and Parker ending phrases often on the Upbeat ( like Irez87 says later in the thread ) with a 5th or diminished 5th linear interval