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  1. #201

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    White people show up when they damn well feel like showing up; it’s a cultural thing. If you didn’t grow up in our culture you’ll never truly understand it. I don’t answer the phone if I don’t feel like it either. You don’t like it, have your attorney contact my attorney and Bernie will rip your guy a new @sshole, that’s why Bernie makes the big bucks. Stop calling me.
    Ignorance is agony.



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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Here is a bass players view of "laying back" or playing behind the beat. Same thing or something different?



    Thanks

    Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

  4. #203

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    I don't think that's a good example of creatively laying back successfully.

    Because the Bassist is NOT landing on the 1 of each measure OR the 1 of every 2nd Measure.

    Normally in R&B , Pop , Reggae, Funk you can hit the ONE then do a slightly laid back riff or line or part ...then BAM you jump on that 1 when it comes around.

    And I should add there are other downbeats even if playing over bar lines.

    Syncing to major downbeats ( not always the '1' at key points is how Classical /Rock / etc....Musicians let everyone know they are 'in time ' or even better create the time feel
    Dancers also do this


    You can try it on this Groove ( not sure why this tune popped into my head- ):

    Hit the 1 then do some slightly laid back lick ...but bash the 1 when it comes around hit a chord on the 1 then a simple part a few notes lagged .....sets the listener up for the big ONE when it comes around ...

    Play along and see if you feel it.

    Remembering this is mostly Machine quantized stuff- This Track is NOT an example of behind the Beat Playing-

    It is something you can Practice behind the Beat playing - as long as you nail the ONE every measure or every second measure.




    Miles was talking about some Guitar Players who 'lag' unintentionally.

    This Bass Player ( and almost all good ones ) nail the Time extremely well - and I am quite sure he can also at will.

    So this Guy is doing this purposely.

    And I imagine he could push the beat , lag it and land on the 1 at will .

    I merely don't think he did a good example here of what you might actually USE.

    You can do a blind test :
    Don't [ Do NOT ] tell or reveal the Title or Caption of the 'Behind the Beat ' Title .

    Do NOT discuss that 'Topic'

    And Play the Video for a 'recording engineer' , or Producer , someone who does Music for TV or Film etc etc.

    And they'll ( some of them ) say that it sounds like Computer 'Latency ' uncompensated in his headphones and he is playing ,

    To a delayed monitor mix in his headphones causing him to be ' late ' in time compared to the actual track.

    He merely sounds ' out of Sync ' to average listeners.

    However - IF you never Sync to the One
    even in polyrhythms [ as I said - it might be EVERY '1 ' or every second measure '1'
    Or if we are talking about polymeter it might be longer than that.

    I would add that longer tuplet patterns might Sync to the 3 ( in 4-4) I just played one - can't count it but it lands on every '3 '.

    So I guess I would say 1 or some major downbeat but on the odd groupings that land on a downbeat like 3 or even syncopated stuff - you can't miss the 1 for too long or conflict with it ....or people will say you sound 'off time '.

    To correct/focus the cloudy long stuff above and add emphasis for clarity.

    Music in General You can syncopate , you can play behind the beat , you can play polyrhythms , even polymeters ...

    BUT - you must SYNC to Downbeats at some points or people( especially Conductors/ Instructors/ Music Contractors/Producers/audience( instinctively ) etc. will merely think you are 'off time'

    Playing with percussionists etc. reveals this even more and as I have said R&B modern Dance Styles etc not necessarily the 1 but downbeats must frequently be synced .
    Dancers must SYNC their feet to downbeats or they will be out ...flunk audition...

    Oscar Peterson sounds like a percussionist frequently to me ... swings forward but dead on beat...and tighter than Sax Players.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-13-2019 at 04:40 AM.

  5. #204
    There's a difference between having enough control to do something intentionally and lacking the control and doing it unintentionally.

    In the art world, for example, Jackson Pollock is probably a good example. His works seem messy and uncontrolled, but they're actually incredibly precise.

  6. #205

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    @Shadow of the Sun -well said.

    When you listen to George Benson probably the tightest time sense and ability to Play it that way ...(of all Guitarists).



    On the Stevie Wonder ballad 'Lately' ( what a Song ...).

    GB intentionally lags some of the Melody ..
    and so beautifully ( with vibrato too ) - just as you say ....

    He also on one version I think playing with his thumb ( same time feel !- ) .




    This is what Shadow is talking about ...

    And the melodic fills- pure artistry ...

    Also - I sometimes feel Jazz Guitarists play behind the Beat a little more than I 'hear ' it but Jazz Guitarists almost NEVER play behind the Beat on R&B and Funk - they usually kill it - but not kill it like Benson or Brecker because they have too much lag time and often trip up .





    You HAVE to land on the one sooner or later to let contractor/ studio owner/ producer/ bandleader / audience know and feel you are not late..or off time.

    Edit - As Irez 87 mentions later - you don't have to END on the 1 and I should add
    emphasize ANY downbeat also works to lock in and show it - but sure - it sounds great to have a little blip on the upbeat - or a big blip.
    Thanks for correction.

    I should also Add IMO to what I say above to not be as preachy ...

    You can hear a lot of what I am saying when you listen to some of Brecker's stuff ...

    Where there's a triplet or sextuplet pattern but occasionally a group of 7 it builds rhythmic tension in the line then ...you give the listener the big long note on the ONE eventually - maybe after a few measures but it's not like you're out of Sync during the mayhem tension part...



    I don't know about this because I read it somewhere - I am doing it .

    Ooh here's Mr John Coltrane playing
    Equinox - and the Rhythm Section is damn close to (better ) Hip Hop R&B like 50 years ahead !

    !¡What a Groove on the Intro !

    Actually all the way thru ..but especially the Intro.

    Here Trane sounds like R&B /Church Sax Player ...but a little of that otherworldy vibe
    ...

    Hear the super effective behind the beat Playing too...Trane's time feel is often not as straight ahead as this to my ears ..



    Total Badass track like I complain Jazz doesn't have ....oops .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-22-2019 at 11:23 AM.

  7. #206

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    What Robertkoa is talking about is...well... incredibly important and true.

    See, I do agree with you sometimes, Robertkoa

    Even if you don't always place a hit (I sound like a beat mobster) on the BIG one, you HAVE to feel the BIG one.

    That could be the downbeat for every two measures, or the downbeat that marks every four measures.

    I call it phraseology, but I'm sure there's a better name out there.

    I originally posting something very similar, but I moved it to the Performance Ear Training thread.

    The concept is called MACRO time. You learn to feel the beginning and ending of a phrase of time

    ie

    1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

    But you actually hear it as

    1...............1.................1 (I tried to get the big ONE's to line up, but my fonts and margins are

    always wonky on JGF. Notice how there's no counting between the ONE's. You mark that downbeat and feel the space in between. I only gave an example for feeling every two measures. It looks a little different for 4 measure phrases or 8--I wrote about this early on in the Performance Ear Training thread)

    Why is this important? Exactly what RobertKoa said. You can do whatever you want with the time feel. Hell you can even super impose metric modulation and interpret the spaces as 3/4 over 4/4 or 5/4 over 4/4--jazz musicians do this a lot.

    However, laying back, pushing forward, using metric modulation, all that is all gonna sound like shite if you can't hear the BIG ONE--the temporal phrase.

    Remember, I never said you have to always play the BIG ONE. Charlie Parker's phrases didn't always end on the downbeat. Actually, a lot them them ended on the and of 4, or the and of 1, or the and of 2--so on and so forth--Chris 77 might have a better idea. But you better believe Charlie Parker knew EXACTLY where the BIG ONE was in the phrase.

    Dave Frank also talks about this with double time lines. You play a double time line, but you make it end on the BIG ONE. I am currently practicing this, and it helps you shape the dynamics of the double time line as well.

    this stuff can be applied to ballads or up up tempo playing (my top is now 260 while still being musical--IF I know the tune well enough)

  8. #207

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    Deep thoughts:
    If you play the note "behind the beat", the common interpretation is that your note comes late after the beat... yet, if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right.

    Anyway, I have heard nobody play so far behind the beat as Sonny Rollins, who not only lags behind the beat, he lags behind the beat behind that beat...

    White musicians lagging behind the beat-sr-jpg
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    ... if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right....
    I believe this is important, but I totally do not understand, why would something be written before the beat, if it is played after the beat?
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  10. #209

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    There are a couple of research papers that are interesting but not conclusive on the matter of lag generally.

    All jazz soloists so far examined appear to lag the beat to some extent. Some are more consistent in how they do this than others: Gerry Mulligan is less consistent than Freddie Hubbard.

    However tempo and articulation are a determinant here. There hasn’t really been enough research to clinch it.

    For myself, I sound most relaxed, swinging and precise when I nail the upbeat but relax on the beat, and that synch usually happens when i am hearing the line clearly in my mind’s ear, and play in a relaxed way. So it’s something intuitive although I think one’s awareness can be heightened.

    This is something you can play around with on a DAW.

    I’ll attach links to the papers when I have a moment. They are quite interesting.

  11. #210

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    I like that upbeat reference for creating really funky syncopated rhythm parts , semi fingerpicked - I am able to grok it on single lines ..

    But I haven't done it enough on single lines and I tend to go

    'Wow this is really cool' - then fall off the bicycle ..lol .and back to downbeats.

    It is slightly beyond me in actual playing to just fly around that way - it seems to generate really syncopated single lines too but
    it's bass ackwards for me somewhat ( my limitation) but really cool with wide interval leaps with high notes on the upbeats . ..

    When finger or pick and fingers it does the same thing for me - not speaking of single lines but wanna be piano player rhythm stuff -it's easier on rhythm parts .

    I hear Charlie Parker where he sounds like he does that ( do you hear it that way ?).

    Easier for me to play like 60 - 80% of Brecker[ just Rhythms NOT substitutions and melodic content - that's 9.4 % maybe] than Parker- seems like I can muscle my way thru Brecker but CP is too graceful to do that - he's not a Gutbucket R&B Church type Player ...Coltrane either...
    sounds like they both avoided that - obviously easy for them if they wanted to..


    There's a minor blues by Trane - cool behind the beat thing too where he is more
    R&B /Church ....but he is not like Brecker/ Benson/ David Sanborn time feel ( to me ) most of the time - here sounds more like Brecker ( obviously other way around )- just how I hear it ...not 'correct' or anything .....

    Except Trane here :as in my edited earlier post...



    Edit: [Per Irez87- thanks ] My references to the 1 or the 'big 1 ' every few measures or 'big Downbeat anywhere' that I land on , nail target rhythmically ( like most people) doesn't mean the phrase has to end on a 4 or a 1 just some big downbeat somewhere ...the beboppers often seem to put a little 'and' blip after the ' big downbeat ' I just noticed [ not that I am a model for time - lol] I often have a longer note with vibrato at the end of a long phrase and sometimes do a blip on an upbeat .

    Where I really jump on the 1 or every other 1 is on my Pick and Fingers Rhythm parts
    which sound quite Clavinet or Piano- like .

    Some ' Historical References ' say the name BeBop came from the sound of Gillespie and Parker ending phrases often on the Upbeat ( like Irez87 says later in the thread ) with a 5th or diminished 5th linear interval that makes the sound "be bop ".



    Hence the name .....?


    Below - cool to hear Hubbard in contrast to the Sax Player - Soul Jazz....nice groove .
    Sax Player is tighter to the beat ( more forward in time literally ) , generally .

    These Guys are late by choice -they do what they want ...then the ensemble lines are all tight again .

    Even the Drummer lays out during Hubbard's solo just keeping time mostly on the ride cymbal ...so Hubbard can do his thing time wise ( I assume ).

    I think we as Guitarists can stretch the time somewhat ...lag intentionally especially on tracks with less percussion and using more legato non attack and utilize behind the beat stuff as a ' color' ...

    But I doubt if that's what Miles meant - right ..? He must have been annoyed by someone just Playing late ...for no reason or purpose ..but I think this discussion is interesting on the general time feel thing.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-21-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  12. #211

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    Here's a shot of the analysis of Freddie Hubbard from this paper https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/P...qDZVSIwBD/full

    (The data analysis stuff is pretty mathsy, but if you go past that it gets a lot more accessible.)

    White musicians lagging behind the beat-screen-shot-2019-05-19-16-19-17-jpg

    5.2.2. Down under

    In Figure 10, we show a solo section from ‘Down Under,’ recorded by Art Blakey’s Jazz Messengers in 1961, with trumpet player Freddie Hubbard performing together with drummer and bandleader Art Blakey. At an average tempo of 146 BPM, the RC swing ratio exhibits a slightly wavy variation around
    . This gives an example of the archetype of drummers playing high swing ratios at low tempi as discussed in Section 5.1. In contrast, Hubbard stays at the other end of the swing-ratio range at around
    in the zoomed-in section. Furthermore, one can clearly see that Hubbard plays his onbeat onsets in a laid-back fashion behind the beat grid. His offbeats, however, synchronize very well to Blakey’s offbeats most of the time as hypothesized by Friberg and Sundström (2002Friberg, A. , & Sundström, A. (2002). Swing ratios and ensemble timing in jazz performance: Evidence for a common rhythmic pattern. Music Perception , 19 , 333–349.[Crossref], [Web of Science ®], , [Google Scholar]).

    ----------


    The lag is really noticeable here, and is actually looks to be a fair way behind the offbeat a few times.

    This is the track:


  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    @Shadow of the Sun -well said.

    When you listen to George Benson probably the tightest time sense and ability to Play it that way ...(of all Guitarists).



    On the Stevie Wonder ballad 'Lately' ( what a Song ...).

    GB intentionally lags some of the Melody ..
    and so beautifully ( with vibrato too ) - just as you say ....

    He also on one version I think playing with his thumb ( same time feel !- ) .




    This is what Shadow is talking about ...

    And the melodic fills- pure artistry ...

    Also - I sometimes feel Jazz Guitarists play behind the Beat a little more than I 'hear ' it but Jazz Guitarists almost NEVER play behind the Beat on R&B and Funk - they usually kill it - but not kill it like Benson or Brecker because they have too much lag time and often trip up .





    You HAVE to land on the one sooner or later to let contractor/ studio owner/ producer/ bandleader / audience know and feel you are not late..or off time.

    You can hear a lot of what I am saying when you listen to some of Brecker's stuff ...

    Where there's a triplet or sextuplet pattern but occasionally a group of 7 it builds rhythmic tension in the line then ...you give the listener the big long note on the ONE eventually - maybe after a few measures but it's not like you're out of Sync during the mayhem tension part...



    I don't know about this because I read it somewhere - I am doing it .

    Ooh here's Mr John Coltrane playing
    Equinox - and the Rhythm Section is damn close to (better ) Hip Hop R&B like 50 years ahead !

    !¡What a Groove on the Intro !

    Actually all the way thru ..but especially the Intro.

    Here Trane sounds like R&B /Church Sax Player ...but a little of that otherworldy vibe
    ...

    Hear the super effective behind the beat Playing too...Trane's time feel is often not as straight ahead as this to my ears ..



    Total Badass track like I complain Jazz doesn't have ....oops .
    Yeah man. I never get tired of that McCoy Tyner piano solo on Equinox. It is pure, post-bop sublimity (or is it sublimeness?)

  14. #213

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    I think, if you want to play this way, just focus in on what you are listening for in the player.

    Listen to the same solo 5x a day and sing it when you aren't listening to it. Focus on the rhythms, yes--but also focus on the rests, the space, the silence (that will contribute to time feel as well, even though you aren't necessarily focusing on the placement of the upbeat eighth note)

    I think this is called sonic imprinting.

    And be aware of the BIG BEATS, as Robertkoa aforementioned.

    That mathematical analysis of Freddie is really cool--but I dunno if it would help me cop his feel.

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    That mathematical analysis of Freddie is really cool--but I dunno if it would help me cop his feel.
    Yeah I'm in two minds about it myself, obviously generations of jazz musicians learned to play without knowing any of this. In fact the language people are using here regarding pushing or lagging the beat etc is much most subjective and may not have any grounding in actual scientific measurement.

    However - I've known about this aspect of jazz timing for a while, and when you become aware of it, it's actually quite possible to hear it.

    Furthermore, this is an exercise that was actually suggested to me by a teacher - practice with the metronome on the 'and' of 1 and 3. So - I think some jazz musicians are aware of the structural importance of upbeat synch.

    Lastly... As a teacher and learner I find it useful to make a link between what's going on externally and what's going on internally.

    So - if I set up my DAW with an upbeat tick on one track like this, and have a look at where my onsets are:

    White musicians lagging behind the beat-screen-shot-2019-05-19-19-42-32-jpg

    (I've chosen a good bit lol)

    I can see at a glance where EXACTLY I am placing my notes relative to the beat. Now - this may in practice be too much of a quantised idea, obviously Freddie's beat placement has a lot of humanity in it... But - try it yourself...

    1) It's useful to be able to develop exact fine control over where you are putting things.... And it is in my experience controllable.

    2) It's actually very intuitive. The more 'zen' you are, the better your placement is. Metronome practice is similar in this. I find best results through Hal Galper's process - play a line, audiate it very strongly, play it again casually. (At 7:09)



    3) On playback, the playing that is strongly synchronised to the upbeat seems to swing and 'pop' the most. This may be selection bias of course... I also find there's a bit of leeway - not everything has to be super perfect (look at the Freddie example) but if it's ahead on the upbeat, that feels less good than being a little behind it. To me.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-19-2019 at 03:44 PM.

  16. #215

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    Barry Greene did a lesson on this, with DAW exactly like you--Mr. Chris 77, believe it or not.

    I've used DAW and my specialized "one click per two measures" metronome to study the consistency of my own beat placement

    Here's a clip of the course:



    Interesting lesson, I have it.

    I haven't tried placing the metronome on and of 1 and 3 for a while--I have to go back to that--getting away from 2 and 4 and placing the click on every quarter is so important to internalizing your own sense of time.

    I think we should consider where we place the beat, and what musicians do what--instead of making it a matter of skin color. Fact of the matter is, Jazz is African American--it's part of that history (as is Blues, R&B, and yes, Rock and Roll). That doesn't mean we should look at skin color when we are considering beat placement. It's been said before, but the way you play depends on what you listen to--and what you were brought up listening to--it's psychosomatic (and there's nothing wrong with that).

    That said, I'd love to fool everyone by transcribing the flow of Busta Rhymes or Talib Kweli and tricking everyone into thinking those were classic jazz licks. You wanna hear "laying back"?

    Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
    Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)
    Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
    Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)

    --Snoop Dog

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Barry Greene did a lesson on this, with DAW exactly like you--Mr. Chris 77, believe it or not.

    I've used DAW and my specialized "one click per two measures" metronome to study the consistency of my own beat placement

    Here's a clip of the course:



    Interesting lesson, I have it.
    Great. It's great to know that some notable players/educators are thinking along the same lines.

    Again - I've never taught anyone using the DAW thing. It's purely something I'm playing around with for my own information. I think the main thing is to sensitise the players to the position of the upbeat and deprogram them from thinking they have to introduce an inequality into their playing ('trying to swing'). This always gets good results IME, and I think it's pretty old school advice. Charles McPherson for instance...

    I haven't tried placing the metronome on and of 1 and 3 for a while--I have to go back to that--getting away from 2 and 4 and placing the click on every quarter is so important to internalizing your own sense of time.
    TBH I think the problematic thing with the onbeat click is that you aren't actually meant to synch with it like you would in straight 8s music. The thing is everyone does 'the practice until you can't hear the click' thing. It's quite good to be able to show a graphic to people as to why this is not a good idea for this type of feel.

    This is of course why ****ing everyone shreds double time on medium tempo tunes. :-)

    I think we should consider where we place the beat, and what musicians do what--instead of making it a matter of skin color. Fact of the matter is, Jazz is African American--it's part of that history (as is Blues, R&B, and yes, Rock and Roll). That doesn't mean we should look at skin color when we are considering beat placement. It's been said before, but the way you play depends on what you listen to--and what you were brought up listening to--it's psychosomatic (and there's nothing wrong with that).

    That said, I'd love to fool everyone by transcribing the flow of Busta Rhymes or Talib Kweli and tricking everyone into thinking those were classic jazz licks. You wanna hear "laying back"?

    Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
    Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)
    Rollin down the street, smokin indo, sippin on gin and juice
    Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)

    --Snoop Dog
    Yeah it's the same thing... Just we use notes instead of words.

  18. #217

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    it's psychosomatic .
    in the old days they used to call it - a Soul

  19. #218

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    That's a very good video a lot of truth in it.

    I see a lot of naievetè where people speak of Benson Picking to sound like Benson and Wes Technique etc....

    IF the Goddess of Guitar Technique [ Zephyr ] granted you GBs Technique or Wes's Technique you would get the ABILITY ...

    But NOT the time feel ...

    And NOT the note choices ...

    Those you would still need to work out for yourself .

    And a big part of BOTH of those is a strong aural/ mental image FIRST ...
    then practicing to reinforce that image and make it 'real ' including it's placement in time .

    Very good Video -

    Barry Greene- if I am going to demonstrate time feels - I am going to have a track / drum beat / metronome consistent thru the examples.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-21-2019 at 12:59 PM.

  20. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Deep thoughts:
    If you play the note "behind the beat", the common interpretation is that your note comes late after the beat... yet, if you transcribed it and wrote the score that "behind" note would be written "ahead" of the beat, in front of the beat with respect to the direction you read music from left to right.

    Anyway, I have heard nobody play so far behind the beat as Sonny Rollins, who not only lags behind the beat, he lags behind the beat behind that beat...
    hah!
    ok, just saw this thread for the 1st time [shame on me] but I had to laugh at the title, and then this post by pauln.
    but ain't it the truth. sometimes the tune is over and Sonny catches up at the end... or is it the other way around? hmm….guess I need to start on page 1 to see what it's all about.

  21. #220

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    I still haven't figured out what this thread is all about.

    -When was there ever a Jazz soloist that didn't lag behind the beat as a rule of thumb, including Miles Davis himself. Lol.

    Members of the rhythm section have different roles, sometimes a guy may drive and another hold back. It depends on the song, the beat, the tempo and the situation.

    Tempo variation is a key element in music that moves ("con moto"). One has to differentiate intentional vs unintentional tempo variation, poor timing vs soulful phrasing etc. Is the guy late to the beat because he can't read ahead fast enough, or can't spit it out on time, or is he holding back a galloping band?

    Swing tempo, like in punctuated eights or triplets, come in different degrees, i.e the sixteenth note that follows a punctuated eight are more or less delayed, or is rather interpreted as an eights triplet after a forth triplet. This degree of swing is negotiated during a live session.

    Miles Davis was a Jazz musician remembered for his music legacy. There was no crap coming out of his trumpet.

    -Quiet, Quiet, he's going to say something........

    -"White guys are lagging behind the beat"

    -Now, what are we supposed to do?


  22. #221

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    It's expanded to be

    'Time Feel - how to use it and abuse it but never lose it.'

    Or something like that ...

    Hey Miles ( wherever you are ) - how come your time feel isn't/wasn't as tight as McCoy Tyner ? lol.

    Not even close. ( me neither )

    I think Irez 87 made some really good corrections to my unnecessarily long Posts. ( big surprise , too long again ).

    When doing tuplets and odd note groupings IMO there is more responsibility to nail a Downbeat ,or Downbeats not necessarily the 1 -

    AND not necessarily end the phrase on a downbeat .

    Just that accenting and syncing to the Downbeats , not every Downbeat possibly not every Bar but often -

    because even though referencing Upbeats [ love it for syncopated Rhythm Parts , and 'wilder 'lines with wide interval skips higher notes on upbeats ] is a useful tool ...

    Nailing ( accenting ) Downbeats ( often ) let's everybody know you are 'in time ' even non Musician listeners feel it usually .

    Especially ( IMO ) after fast stuff , tuplets, odd note groupings etc accenting Downbeats both dynamically and sometimes with longer note values keeps it all uncluttered and clear ...

    In R&B Rhythm Parts - we usually nail the one ...and it's possible to s-t-r-e-c-h the rest of the Bar or over 2 Bars or create that effect so the 'Big One' is jarring almost abrupt when it comes around again .

    But that's a specialized thing .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-22-2019 at 08:02 AM.

  23. #222

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    Time feel - useless term really. Conflates two separate things that can almost be in opposition to each other sometimes.

    Talking about lag. Perception of it and the empirical reality...

  24. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post

    In R&B Rhythm Parts - we usually nail the one ...and it's possible to s-t-r-e-c-h the rest of the Bar or over 2 Bars or create that effect so the 'Big One' is jarring almost abrupt when it comes around again .

    But that's a specialized thing .
    I'm a fan of Bootsy Collins, he would subscribe to everything you said about the "big One". (He would probably also claim he's the inventor of the concept. He likes to think so.) Unlike Miles, he's a living legend, but also unlike Miles he's not a Jazz musician. Funk is close to Soul music that is kind of different from Jazz... the way I feel it....Anyway, Bootsy is the grandmaster of groove.

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There are a couple of research papers that are interesting but not conclusive on the matter of lag generally.

    All jazz soloists so far examined appear to lag the beat to some extent. Some are more consistent in how they do this than others: Gerry Mulligan is less consistent than Freddie Hubbard.

    However tempo and articulation are a determinant here. There hasn’t really been enough research to clinch it.

    For myself, I sound most relaxed, swinging and precise when I nail the upbeat but relax on the beat, and that synch usually happens when i am hearing the line clearly in my mind’s ear, and play in a relaxed way. So it’s something intuitive although I think one’s awareness can be heightened.

    This is something you can play around with on a DAW.

    I’ll attach links to the papers when I have a moment. They are quite interesting.
    Yeah. Soloists , Vocalists can be late and sound really good.

    But when /if you are part of the Harmonic Rhythm there is a point where it just sounds ' off time ' on chords ...
    Like playing the Piano Part on Take Five on Guitar with a Rhythm Section- depending on Tempo and Voicings ( larger Voicings = less wiggle room )

    Then there is less wiggle room than for a Solo - it reaches a point where it's just 'off time ' not subjective any more ...obvious I suppose .

    I think it's interesting to hear and be aware of what the great soloists do or did...

    I am becoming more aware of McCoy Tyner as a great time keeper Rhythmatist / harmonic /stylistic innovator - if 10 % rubs off - great even 5 %
    his Rhythm stuff is was amazing .

    Empirical? I took 2 empiricals this morning and don't feel anything .....lol.

    That's cool the way you relaxed yourself into good time -I doubt if it was 'bad' before ...

    As I said I hear Parker hitting upbeats and maybe that's why he has that effortless feel to his swing and Playing in general ?

    Or just that it was actually easy for him to Play that way......?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-22-2019 at 02:09 PM.

  26. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Yeah. Soloists , Vocalists can be late and sound really good.

    But when /if you are part of the Harmonic Rhythm there is a point where it just sounds ' off time ' on chords ...
    Like playing the Piano Part on Take Five on Guitar with a Rhythm Section- depending on Tempo and Voicings ( larger Voicings = less wiggle room )

    Then there is less wiggle room than for a Solo - it reaches a point where it's just 'off time ' not subjective any more ...obvious I suppose .
    I think there's a distinction to be made which I think you'll agree with.

    There's of course more room for a soloist to be a bit ... flaccid... rhythmically on a good rhythm section... And of course a good rhythm section will help a soloist find the pocket...

    But no, there's no wiggle room when we are talking about people who can actually play... It's just as specific what is expected of them - a real jazz soloist has to not only find the pocket but define and exist in it 24/7. You can't be just 'late'. You can vary beat placement etc, but certain things have to be right.

    I can't think of a better demonstration of this than Paul Chambers switching from playing the melody to So What to walking - from laid back soloist swing to pushed bass player swing...

    And then there's the area of polyrhythm... Billie etc... Wes on Willow Weep locking into the Bembe...

    Good soloists project time/feel through their playing. Bad soloists lean on the rhythm section... I mean that's obvious, right?

    (From the player's point of view... IME *trying* to project time/feel is always a mistake ... important to separate causes from effects....)

    I think it's interesting to hear and be aware of what the great soloists do or did...

    I am becoming more aware of McCoy Tyner as a great time keeper Rhythmatist / harmonic /stylistic innovator - if 10 % rubs off - great even 5 %
    his Rhythm stuff is was amazing .

    Empirical? I took 2 empiricals this morning and don't feel anything .....lol.

    That's cool the way you relaxed yourself into good time -I doubt if it was 'bad' before ...

    As I said I hear Parker hitting upbeats and maybe that's why he has that effortless feel to his swing and Playing in general ?

    Or just that it was actually easy for him to Play that way......?
    Sure... He grew up in Kansas City in the 30s.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-22-2019 at 05:19 PM.

  27. #226

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    @Guitar Buddy - yes ! I was mostly speaking of Tyner's rolling thunder pulsing in the Rhythm Sections -his soloing is obvious but I would love to get a little of Tyner's vibe in my semi fingerpicked Rhythms.

    @Christian - I will check those guys out in the specific tunes - then re-read your Post here .

    That little break in 'Road Song' by Wes -now that's some Harmonic Rhythm..will check that out and Chambers ..

  28. #227

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    Anything of Wes playing a slow swing or a three.... Full House is another good one

  29. #228

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    This paper explains some of the observations discussed in this thread.

    http://www.speech.kth.se/prod/public.../files/822.pdf

    Abstract

    The timing in jazz ensemble performances was investigated in order to approach the question of what makes the music “swing.” One well-known aspect of swing is that consecutive eighth notes are performed as long/short patterns. The exact duration ratio (the swing ratio) of the long/short pattern has been largely unknown. In this study, the swing ratio produced by drummers on the ride cymbal was measured. Three well known jazz recordings and a play-along record were used.

    A substantial and gradual variation of the drummers’ swing ratio with respect to tempo was observed. At slow tempi, the swing ratio was as high as 3.5:1, whereas at fast tempi it reached 1:1. The often-mentioned “triple-feel,” that is, a ratio of 2:1, was present only at a certain tempo. The absolute duration of the short note in the long-short pattern was constant at about 100 ms for medium to fast tempi, suggesting a practical limit on tone duration that may be due to perceptual factors.

    Another aspect of swing is the soloist’s timing in relation to the accompaniment. For example, a soloist can be characterized as playing “behind the beat.” The swing ratio of the soloist and its relation to the cymbal accompaniment was measured from the same recordings. In slow tempi, the soloists were mostly playing their downbeats after the cymbal but were synchronized with the cymbal at the off-beats. This implied that the swing ratio of the soloist was considerably smaller than the cymbal accompaniment in slow tempi. It may give an impression of “playing behind” but at the same time keep the synchrony with the accompaniment at the off-beat positions.

  30. #229

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    I think what this thread is about (which is a reflection of the times we live in rather than what Miles Davis may have expressed in an interview back in the 80s); Jazz musicians challenged by computers, DAWs, sequencers, drum machines and clicks.

    -Why is it so hard to make the DAW groove? Why doesn't my MIDI file from a TAB sound anything like the original recording? Why is my timing in the part I just recorded so poor?

    The problem has many layers; The representation of the data must be a valid model and the gear must be smart enough and powerful enough to execute it. Still the computer cannot be in the pocket. I have to have the knowhow, how to make it swing and it's a time consuming task, far from the beauty of playing in a band making magic together.

    The first problem is that Jazz notation is an approximation. Written straight eights are seldom supposed to be played straight. Solution: I have to study the concept of swing ratio and how it's applied to MIDI files and DAW Instruments.

    The second problem is the computer clock static tempo, creating an artificial, lifeless representation. Solution: I have to learn how to use the DAW to make tempo variations. If my DAW doesn't support it, I better upgrade my DAW.

    The third problem is software and hardware latency, meaning that what I hear when recording is not what I get. Solution: I have to learn how to tweak latency parameters and/or upgrade my DAW and sound card. I remember my first home computer recordings; I was shocked by my poor timing and forced myself to play ahead of the beat

    The examples above may also explain why pop music over the last 20 years hasn't changed much and why the foundation of contemporary pop is some static pre-programmed beat in some software plug.

    Jazz is playing together, vibing together, getting into the groove together, negotiating tempo and swing ratio during a live session. It's a bit too organic for the computer to cope with. Jazz is best experienced in the absence of computers. Jazz is a living thing.
    Last edited by JCat; 05-24-2019 at 03:15 AM.

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    This paper explains some of the observations discussed in this thread.

    http://www.speech.kth.se/prod/public.../files/822.pdf

    Abstract

    The timing in jazz ensemble performances was investigated in order to approach the question of what makes the music “swing.” One well-known aspect of swing is that consecutive eighth notes are performed as long/short patterns. The exact duration ratio (the swing ratio) of the long/short pattern has been largely unknown. In this study, the swing ratio produced by drummers on the ride cymbal was measured. Three well known jazz recordings and a play-along record were used.

    A substantial and gradual variation of the drummers’ swing ratio with respect to tempo was observed. At slow tempi, the swing ratio was as high as 3.5:1, whereas at fast tempi it reached 1:1. The often-mentioned “triple-feel,” that is, a ratio of 2:1, was present only at a certain tempo. The absolute duration of the short note in the long-short pattern was constant at about 100 ms for medium to fast tempi, suggesting a practical limit on tone duration that may be due to perceptual factors.

    Another aspect of swing is the soloist’s timing in relation to the accompaniment. For example, a soloist can be characterized as playing “behind the beat.” The swing ratio of the soloist and its relation to the cymbal accompaniment was measured from the same recordings. In slow tempi, the soloists were mostly playing their downbeats after the cymbal but were synchronized with the cymbal at the off-beats. This implied that the swing ratio of the soloist was considerably smaller than the cymbal accompaniment in slow tempi. It may give an impression of “playing behind” but at the same time keep the synchrony with the accompaniment at the off-beat positions.
    Yes, I've read this.

    The paper I posted above is an attempt to directly measure the theories being talked about here. I have to say I think they need to do a bit more research to be more conclusive (for instance, why the hell didn't they use the same soloist at different tempi?) but musicology isn't the day gig of the guys who wrote the second paper... They are physicists who happen to like jazz. Hopefully there will be more stuff done though.

  32. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    What I think this thread is about (which is a reflection of the times we live in rather than what Miles Davis possibly expressed in an interview back in the 80s) are Jazz musicians challenged by computers, DAWs, sequencers, drum machines and clicks.

    -Why is it so hard to make the DAW groove? Why doesn't my MIDI file of eights from a TAB sound anything like the original recording? Why is my timing in the part I just recorded so poor?

    The problem has many layers; The representation of the data must be a valid model and the gear must be smart enough and powerful enough to execute it. Still the computer cannot be in the pocket. I have to have the knowhow, how to make it swing and it's a time consuming task, far from the beauty of playing in a band making magic together.

    The first problem is that Jazz notation is an approximation. Written straight eights are seldom supposed to be played straight. Solution: I have to study the concept of swing ratio and how it's applied to MIDI files and DAW Instruments.

    The second problem is the computer clock static tempo, creating an artificial, lifeless representation. Solution: I have to learn how to use the DAW to make tempo variations. If my DAW doesn't support it, I better upgrade my DAW.

    The third problem is software and hardware latency, meaning that what I hear when recording is not what I get. Solution: I have to learn how to tweak latency parameters and/or upgrade my DAW and sound card. I remember my first home computer recordings; I was shocked by my poor timing and forced myself to play ahead of the beat

    The examples above may also explain why pop music over the last 20 years hasn't changed much and why the foundation of contemporary pop is some static pre-programmed beat in some software plug.

    Jazz is playing together, vibing together, getting into the groove together, negotiating tempo and swing ratio during a live session. It's a bit too organic for the computer to cope with. Jazz is best experienced in the absence of computers. Jazz is a living thing.
    I think a lot of this stuff for me comes down to the apparent contradiction that some jazz musicians swear by metronome practice and others regard it as a bad idea. As there are greats & legends lining up on both sides, I figure the apparent contradiction has to be a manifestation of a deeper unity.

    This sort of research is starting to make me realise what that deeper thing is...

    I don't actually think the student needs to know any of this stuff, any more than a vocal student needs to know the anatomy of the human vocal tract and lungs. But it can help the teacher understand how to pass on something that they might never have had to think about, even if it's just seeing how the traditional ways of teaching this stuff connect up.

    In general experiential learning is the best for anything. Music is a language.... But OTOH, experiential learning is fastest and easiest in early life. This is where the whole thread topic really comes from, BTW... Cultural background and early years learning...

    Someone once told me if a Brazilian kid starts tapping a rhythm on a table, the family joins in, if an English kid does it he is told to stop making noise. Might not be true, but I think it makes the point. (In a musical family, too, a child's first attempts at musical expression are more likely to be valued than silenced.)

    This shit starts very early, so it's easy to see how these things get confused...

    For the rest of us who may have been rhythmically educationally disadvantage by growing up in, say, the Home Counties (hey Brighton's a hip place, but it is or at least was very white) need all the help we can get... I compare it trying to learn a language. You can do the grammar and the vocab, everything, but if you learn it later in life you may always have an accent. The aim is to get that accent to be a lilt, a flavour rather than a thing that inhibits communication, but you may never be able to remove it completely, and why would you want to?

    Actually Richard Feynman put it the exact same way when he talked about his experiences of learning Frigidaire in Rio back in the 50s...

    Now this samba school was a thing where guys from the favelas -- the
    poor sections of the city -- would come down, and meet behind a construction
    lot where some apartment houses were being built, and practice the new music
    for the Carnaval.
    I chose to play a thing called a "frigideira," which is a toy frying
    pan made of metal, about six inches in diameter, with a little metal stick
    to beat it with. It's an accompanying instrument which makes a tinkly, rapid
    noise that goes with the main samba music and rhythm and fills it out. So I
    tried to play this thing and everything was going all right. We were
    practicing, the music was roaring along and we were going like sixty, when
    all of a sudden the head of the batteria section, a great big black man,
    yelled out, "STOP! Hold it, hold it -- wait a minute!" And everybody
    stopped. "Something's wrong with the frigideiras!" he boomed out. "O
    Americana, outra vez!" ("The American again!")
    So I felt uncomfortable. I practiced all the time. I'd walk along the
    beach holding two sticks that I had picked up, getting the twisty motion of
    the wrists, practicing, practicing, practicing. I kept working on it, but I
    always felt inferior, that I was some kind of trouble, and wasn't really up
    to it.
    Well, it was getting closer to Carnaval time, and one evening there was
    a conversation between the leader of the band and another guy, and then the
    leader started coming around, picking people out: "You!" he said to a
    trumpeter. "You!" he said to a singer. "You!" -- and he pointed to me. I
    figured we were finished. He said, "Go out in front!"
    We went out to the front of the construction site -- the five or six of
    us -- and there was an old Cadillac convertible, with its top down. "Get
    in!" the leader said.
    There wasn't enough room for us all, so some of us had to sit up on the
    back. I said to the guy next to me, "What's he doing -- is he putting us
    out?"
    "Nao se, nao se." ("I don't know.")
    We drove off way up high on a road which ended near the edge of a cliff
    overlooking the sea. The car stopped and the leader said, "Get out!" -- and
    they walked us right up to the edge of the cliff!
    And sure enough, he said, "Now line up! You first, you next, you next!
    Start playing! Now march!"
    We would have marched off the edge of the cliff -- except for a steep
    trail that went down. So our little group goes down the trail -- the
    trumpet, the singer, the guitar, the pandeiro, and the frigideira -- to an
    outdoor party in the woods. We weren't picked out because the leader wanted
    to get rid of us; he was sending us to this private party that wanted some
    samba music! And afterwards he collected money to pay for some costumes for
    our band.
    After that I felt a little better, because I realized, that when he
    picked the frigideira player, he picked me!
    Another thing happened to increase my confidence. Some time later, a
    guy came from another samba school, in Leblon, a beach further on. He wanted
    to join our school.
    The boss said, "Where're you from?"
    "Leblon."
    "What do you play?"
    "Frigideira."
    "OK. Let me hear you play the frigideira."
    So this guy picked up his frigideira and his metal stick and...
    "brrra-dup-dup; chick-a-chick." Gee whiz! It was wonderful!
    The boss said to him, "You go over there and stand next to O Americana,
    and you'll learn how to play the frigideira!"
    My theory is that it's like a person who speaks French who comes to
    America. At first they're making all kinds of mistakes, and you can hardly
    understand them. Then they keep on practicing until they speak rather well,
    and you find there's a delightful twist to their way of speaking -- their
    accent is rather nice, and you love to listen to it. So I must have had some
    sort of accent playing the frigideira, because I couldn't compete with those
    guys who had been playing it all their lives; it must have been some kind of
    dumb accent. But whatever it was, I became a rather successful frigideira
    player.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-23-2019 at 05:12 AM.

  33. #232

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    Lovely story,
    Be careful with that samba rhythm, It's sticky, hard to shake it off.

    One more thing that just struck me; about the time when Miles makes his statement, the click track was the plague. Everyone was supposed to play with click in-ears. A drummer that couldn't follow the click track, was suddenly out of work. Guys that used to be pacers became slaves under the click.

    I saw Miles in a sparkling red space suit, a red horn and shades looking like goggles, together with his band on stage in the mid 80s. Steinbergers and Digital synthesizers. At that point he had left "Kind of Blue" far behind.

    Last edited by JCat; 05-23-2019 at 10:53 AM.

  34. #233

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    When I listen to Jazz Soloists and especially Guitarists I hear a lot of different time feels that still sound excellent or great even behind the beat comping can sound great depending upon the track/arrangement .

    Jazz seems to be set up for a lot of open space and flexibility regarding time feel ( though I don't claim to be knowledgeable enough on Jazz to make this call ).

    My ability to play tight is not from knowledge it's feel and ' sync'.

    But I think many will agree for example on harmonic rhythm pulse Music - even Bossa - there are strict limits on how late you can be on the Rhythm Guitar ( Jobim type Bossa Rhythm ) - not so much on the Solos ..

    Then one step further ( or backwards because these Rhythms may put you in a 'straight jacket ' trapped ...lol ) because there is less wiggle room on the chords AND the soloing ( to my ears and hands )..

    However I can play a bit behind as long as I hit major downbeats frequently ...but the pocket is just' tighter' .

    But really the Brecker/Benson ( or 90 % of it ) feel just locks into this stuff cuz it's a tighter feel and IS actually tighter to the 'Grid ' - tho I am not a DAW type thinker.

    Jazz seems to be structured ( non structured ) compared to R&B , Classical, Modern Pop etc ( quantized Main Beats etc) .

    Do you Guys here it this way ?



    Not much wiggle room to play behind the Beat ....on the above ... feel it ?

  35. #234

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    Yeah, R&B must be tight, some Jazz is looser, some is tight. The wiggle room depends on the tempo and the beat.

    I love "Higher Ground", check this out, a slow version by Master Larry Carlton and Fourplay. Looser, right?


  36. #235

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    Yeah - love that Vocalist too.

    They have Midi production with live stuff ...best way..( I mean if you need MIDI production ...use as little quantize as possible and as much live Musicians as possible and don't quantize any of the' live' stuff .

    And LC is a true master -agreed .

    He has done so many epic Solos and can expand Blues to eloquent but still has that raw emotion and Plays so cool over everything ...

    I like that Track a lot .

    In the 80's I had a lot of Larry Carlton cassettes ( remember those ) - LC has some of the best Solo albums IMO..

    One of the most expressive Guitarists ever..
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-24-2019 at 05:25 PM.

  37. #236

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    Yes. I had this super long Post ...lol.

    But you have touched upon a very good point Jcat.

    I was/am time sensitive having ZERO to do with Micro Time / Macro Time in the analytical sense but I always had very tight time on Rhythm Guitar .

    But HERE's the irony :
    If you can Play Super Tight R&B Rhythms [ fully - I will explain next ].
    Jazz Rhythms are easy rhythmically .

    Conversely - Harmony / scales / Modulations / transposing on the fly etc .
    which Jazzers take for granted ..

    IF you [ especially Me lol ] can handle Jazz per above - R&B is a piece of cake - Harmonically etc. but I am expanding R&B harmonically now ( not while I type though .


    NOW -here is an interesting thing for you to try ESPECIALLY if you are a Veteran Jazzer and an advanced Theorist / Player.

    I am curious how you more advanced Theorists / Readers hear - feel this .

    In Higher Ground by Stevie we have the essence of 'swing' IMO ( the real swing ) - which is a beautiful clash and MELDING at a fundamental Rhythmic Level - the mix of African Rhythms (SOME of them ) with Full Classical Harmony and devices ( or most of them .


    So instead of talking about Barry Harris - great educator though he may be - ( not the Funkiest Player or Harmonic Rhythmatist or even close - lol).

    With Higher Ground you hear the triplet or implied 12/8 over 4/4 or whatever( I just feel it - that's how I do it , that's how I can go from from ' hard swing' very near Benson ...to further back although forward is more normal for me .


    So take your single lines and play over Higher Ground....see if you need to adjust.

    Even cooler ( and I did not learn from doing this - but just did it gradually ) - IF you fingerpick or play a little Classical or Pick and fingers etc..

    You will see that the straight time Rhythms like Chet Atkins /Travis Picking etc and many Classical type stuff need to be rather severely adjusted to fit the 12/8 Africa over 4/4 or WHATEVER we should call it.

    You might also hear/ see that Bossa Rhythms just need a little push forward but you can get some really cool variations .

    And if you fingerpick over these Rhythms it's very enlightening...

    Rather than those horribly vague descriptions of 'Swing ' ESPECIALLY in the chords and plucking- fingerpicking/ pianoguitar you will probably feel and hear this .
    It's' real ' . The time adjustment needed is 'real' to Sync.

    I am going to call it something OTHER than swing to avoid all that 'debate' .
    I am fusing these at Basic Levels rather than copying or deciphering people who can't play it and I am not a copier type learner - I learned long before Internet ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-25-2019 at 01:51 PM.

  38. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Yes. I had this super long Post ...lol.

    But you have touched upon a very good point Jcat.

    I was/am time sensitive having ZERO to do with Micro Time / Macro Time in the analytical sense but I always had very tight time on Rhythm Guitar and now it's in my lines and expanded my fingerpicking into beyond Chet time feels ...

    But HERE's the irony :
    If you can Play Super Tight R&B Rhythms [ fully - I will explain next ].
    Jazz Rhythms are easy rhythmically .

    Conversely - Harmony / scales / Modulations / transposing on the fly etc .
    which Jazzers take for granted ..

    IF you [ especially Me lol ] can handle Jazz per above - R&B is a piece of cake - Harmonically etc. but I am expanding R&B harmonically now ( not while I type though .


    NOW -here is an interesting thing for you to try ESPECIALLY if you are a Veteran Jazzer and an advanced Theorist / Player.

    I am curious how you more advanced Theorists / Readers hear - feel this .

    In Higher Ground by Stevie we have the essence of 'swing' IMO ( the real swing ) - which is a beautiful clash and MELDING at a fundamental Rhythmic Level - the mix of African Rhythms (SOME of them ) with Full Classical Harmony and devices ( or most of them .


    So instead of talking about Barry Harris - great educator though he may be - ( not the Funkiest Player or Harmonic Rhythmatist or even close - lol).

    With Higher Ground you hear the triplet or implied 12/8 over 4/4 or whatever( I just feel it - that's how I do it , that's how I can go from very close to Benson and back off to the Classical feel of Adam Rodgers ( I do not wiish to emulate His Bach influenced his Time...except when I do 2 part inventions Classical Style - that's by coincidence to his Classical feel )
    Don't Know if Adam could swing 12/8 front of beat - don't care )...

    So take your single lines and play over Higher Ground....see if you need to adjust.

    Even cooler ( and I did not learn from doing this - but just did it gradually ) - IF you fingerpick or play a little Classical or Pick and fingers etc..

    You will see that the straight time Rhythms like Chet Atkins /Travis Picking etc and many Classical type stuff need to be rather severely adjusted to fit the 12/8 Africa over 4/4 or WHATEVER we should call it.

    You might also hear/ see that Bossa Rhythms just need a little push forward but you can get some really cool variations ( which you Guys can count and notate and expand upon in the future ) .

    And if you fingerpick over these Rhythms it's very enlightening...

    Rather than those horribly vague descriptions of 'Swing ' ESPECIALLY in the chords and fingerpicking/ piano you will probably feel and hear this .
    It's' real ' . The time adjustment needed is 'real'.

    I am going to call it something OTHER than swing to avoid all that 'debate' .
    I am fusing these at Basic Levels rather than copying or deciphering people who can't play it and I am not a copier type learner - I learned long before Internet ...

    However I should not be too cocky about this because I have greatly benefitted from being exposed to and helped by the Jazz Theorists ( and actual use practical stuff) from you Guys ...and hearing the Masters etc.
    Very good, I think of the loose shuffle as a link between Jazz and R&B groove.
    Triplets are tight, but the the shuffle beat allows some degree of swing.
    (Teachers may introduce Jazz students to the shuffle beat to get a feel for swing.)

    Pretty Purdie 'splains to us:


  39. #238

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    Great . Thanks for posting .
    He is killer at this...must listen many times and digest fully.


    Sounds good, feels good and super funky .

    I once hired a Singer ( just a Commercial ) who had just worked with Purdie and was raving about him - he was already famous in the 70's ).



    As I have said before the 'Hard Swing' ( my term ) of Benson/Brecker fits all of these ..
    I am quite close in time feel to the Killer B's..

    But becoming more aware of 6/4 , 6/8 and 12/8 can cause me to leave holes for some crazy patterns and also Rhythm Guitar parts etc. I do it instinctively by ear now which is cool ...
    But - being more aware [ Drum Theory rudimentary reading ] can lead me into some new Rhythms especially Latin 6/ 4 etc.

    The brilliance of George Benson - close to that ( GB's ) time feel fits Jazz , R&B ,

    House Reggaeton , Latin etc.

    Brecker was like that- he usually seems just a hair behind Benson in time [ to my ears/beat center non analytical processor]

    [In part because the Guitar can almost be a percussion instrument the Guitar IMO has an advantage over Horns for playing tight percussion type figures ]

    What happens when you play over 'Higher Ground ' ?

    Most fingerstyle stuff has to be rhythmically adjusted also and gets funkier/more urban / rhythmic etc.
    When you play over R&B , including modern Dance and Latin Styles ...

    You can't play straight up and down Travis Picking & Variations [Chet Atkins, Tommy Emmanuel etc ] ...over ' Higher Ground ' it just will sound 'off time' even to non musicians .

    I'd rather hear Brecker/Benson/Hancock/ Tyner talk about 'time feel ' than Miles.

    Or Sting / Donald Fagen/Stevie or the 'other' Stevie - Winwood.



    I really liked the Purdie clip though.

    Just Playing over different program material is the best door opener IMO - different Rhythms etc.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-09-2019 at 08:44 PM.

  40. #239

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    I saw him in about '71. On the Corner arrived soon after. The band I was playing with at the time was interested in exploring that. I remember telling the drummer and bassist they weren't getting it. They needed to play more stiff. More like a machine. Long before click track. The tablas swing in spots and in others just about as on the beat as it gets.

    Zakir Hussain sat in with us once. No tabla available. He played mostly quarter notes squarely on the f'in beat on high conga. Maybe he figured we needed some help. He's an awesome drummer.

  41. #240

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    Miles' comment from the interview in question. This is all the context that even the full interview offered...but the usual Miles.


  42. #241

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    Playing "fat notes" seems to suggest the image of a score with graphically larger note heads with respect to their stems and flags, as if their individual initiation (attacks) were represented as variable in the time domain, extended about their absolute beat centers.

    I think this is similar to the idea of "beat width", which describes the variance around the absolute beat center within which a skilled player may place and articulate his notes and still sound rhythmically good. A player's beat width is a personal measure developed through time and experience, comprised of many micro-techniques generally below their level of conscious execution.

    Longer beat width / fatter notes is highly desired for playing jazz; you know when you hear it.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  43. #242

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    There's that saxophone bloke on the internet who suggests short notes are preferred for notes on the upbeats. (I'll track down the link, it was posted here yonks ago.)

    Like all these sweeping statements I'm sure it's not generally true, but it seems often the case.

  44. #243

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    Although I don't agree with the OP, isn't this thread enough proof that we need a rhythm/time section of JGF? Actually, what would that section be called, formally?

  45. #244

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  46. #245

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    So, how do we start this new section for once and for all. Rhythm and time don't fall into the sections we already have. Actually, everything we discuss should ultimately trace back to time, rhythm, and "feel".

  47. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Playing "fat notes" seems to suggest the image of a score with graphically larger note heads with respect to their stems and flags, as if their individual initiation (attacks) were represented as variable in the time domain, extended about their absolute beat centers.

    I think this is similar to the idea of "beat width", which describes the variance around the absolute beat center within which a skilled player may place and articulate his notes and still sound rhythmically good. A player's beat width is a personal measure developed through time and experience, comprised of many micro-techniques generally below their level of conscious execution.

    Longer beat width / fatter notes is highly desired for playing jazz; you know when you hear it.
    I think I have long done this on 'Rhythm Guitar' parts where the exact durations of the chords accent or affect the harmonic rhythms .

    Think of a Jobim type Bossa and then ( in your mind or on the Guitar ) you could use the same start points but let them ring a bit longer with a slow tempo and a late snare hit right after the l-o-n-g-e-r ringing chords - you could do a modern R&B or even Hip Hop halftime feel Bossa ..I can ' hear' it .
    And these days I can play a much larger % of what I hear -

    The into to 'Start Me Up' on the second chord does another type with similar principal...Keith Richards and the Stones used this on a lot of tunes.

    IMO where this really counts is making chords and rhythm parts really pulse and breathe .....regardless of voicings.
    Jazz Guitarists rarely play self contained Harmonic Rhythms ( exception Bossas ) - which is better for me ..lol.

    Wes did a chord break on 'Road Song ' which has a great , funky Harmonic Rhythm , surprisingly - but I find these organically rather than listen to others, and it's surprisingly rare in Jazz Guitar as I have said.


    But turning a 'head'or a melody into a more vocal performance could definitely use this principle .

    Great vocalists seem to use this type of thing a lot....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-12-2019 at 06:05 AM.

  48. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    What I have noticed is that some terrific Brazilian rhythm players, on piano or guitar, play a lot of notes -- very busy comping. Other players, equally propulsive, play much more sparsely. I have found it difficult to make the busy version work -- the concept isn't necessarily difficult, but executing it requires great feel and great precision -- how and when you hit which chord and when you release it. It often seems like something you have to get when you're young, to hear it, like speaking a language without an accent.

    True - totally track dependent ...I am an advanced Guitarist now but still am a Pop/ R&B / Player ...

    So it's a difference when ' comping' which are often like horn stabs / accents - where Brazilian Guitar seems to go either way...part of the
    Harmonic Rhythm sometimes , sometimes just accents.
    Chico Pinero does both I think - the Brazilian guys seem to
    really groove ...
    I am more like Andy Summers was in the Police (I am not that brilliant lol - easy to Play but no one ever thought of it in Pop mostly )
    where the Guitar is really part or a main part of the Harmonic Rhythm ..or like the left hand of a Keyboard Player - not much room to be late or early .
    My pick and fingers style is much more sophisticated than Summers was - but he was perfect for that Music IMO and super creative.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-08-2019 at 08:18 AM.

  49. #248

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    Didn't João Gilberto sing consistently in front of his guitar beat?

  50. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Didn't João Gilberto sing consistently in front of his guitar beat?
    Wow. That's an interesting observation. I know little about Brazilian and just pulled this up by random on Youtube.



    He does appear to do exactly that on this tune at times - doesn't he ?
    It's the way the chords swing I think , where the second part of the measure sounds behind the beat due to the rest note in the Rhythm and the Upbeat placement of the chords - he might not really be ahead technically .
    He's almost singing in half time isn't he ?

    I always like his Guitar Playing - a minimalist - but brilliant.


    I love the smooth modulations on this tune and the crisp groove !
    I will probably learn this( the voicings ) there are some cool variations in the Guitar Rhythms and voicings at the outro of the tune.

    On the next tune he IS ahead slightly at a few points - just as you say at times- and it all fits like a glove .

    You Guys who have done a lot of transcribing - please correct me on this if needed.
    I hear and play Bossa type and some Variations as starting on the 1 but the second part of the Measure/Pattern occurs partially so Gilberto appears to sing ahead due to the syncopation but there are times when he does go ahead a bit and over the bar lines - all while holding down those cool Bossa Rhythms and voicings.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-09-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  51. #250

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    Swing is about playing with the beat, to my ears