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  1. #151

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    Now I don't play GBs lines. .my own and obviously not as good as one of the greatest Guitarists of all time but I do have mucho chops and time ..and hard swing.Some of the stuff I will do and in the future there will be some exhibitions and cutting contests ( with known Players in clips not aspiring Players ) and a click to the CD ...which is geared to the larger black audience but has a lot of Jazz influence cause of my voicings...Depending on how good it is ...[that is a variable lol but a lot of difference between good and great ] -I think a LOT of smooth Jazz musicians will wonder why they have been playing down to their Audience ...there's a huge gap between what they do and what they could be doing ...I might only be the best at it for 4 weeks lol. Probably longer because I have some writing ability and rhythmic chops ( I think memorable Vocal tunes are easier ) And there is no Archetype...on Guitar exactly for it , there is for the lines...not so much the rhythm guitar.And the Rhythms of Jazz as you said are more for listening now...I just heard Lage Lund do something - brilliant- kind of like 20th Century Classical Music -Just not for a large Urban Audience...the Rhythm is different underneath - but very brilliant playing and writing.
    But a bit more cerebral...On my material...it's very opposite of this...Not harmonically ...but rhythmically..When I have finished product - I can do some stunts...like show how far Alt Picking can go...etc etc.


    From experience - in order to really use things like syncing to upbeats -

    Conceptually - that may help some people - but with all the digital media around now - electronic drums Ireal etc.
    A serious Guitarist should be able to sync 8ths 16ths / triplets in quarters 8ths 16ths / tuplets of other types etc.

    Point being - unless a Player can already groove - 'syncing to upbeats ' won't help UNLESS he is doing Syncopated Chords , Rhythms or lines - but that is advanced again ...

    I agree - you can come up with very good Rhythm Parts for R&B/ Funk though - syncing to Upbeats - crazy stuff that sounds good - just an advanced Concept - I appreciate it though.






    Some of my Rhythm Parts seem to sync to upbeats because they use syncopation ...


    But it's from R&B ...even though harmonically it's closer to Jazz....


    I know these Guitarists can or have probably played other Styles....


    @RP Jazz Below - if you Play all those percussion instruments - you must have excellent to great 'Time ' when you Play Guitar...people move ( to the Beat )when they hear your Guitar I assume .

    I think Playing like a percussionist ( even a basic one ) on Guitar = great fertile ground .

    Although might be too much on Standards - don't know ....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-13-2019 at 09:52 AM.

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  3. #152

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    I don't think Lage Lund playing straight 8s contemporary NYC jazz is really a valid comparison to anything we've been talking about really. This music has a more abstract sense of the beat. From the drummer and bassist too - it's not just Lage.

    Dig out a copy of the (obscure) release Mis En Boutielle a New York by the Nikelson trio, a very straightahead bop organ trio session with Lage Lund on guitar and Ari Hoenig on drums (!)

    I think this gives a clear idea of where Lage's bop playing was at as of about 10 years ago. I don't know if he can still play in this idiom, but it's certain he's checked that stuff out. I'm not saying anything about his feel good or bad, but it's a more valid point of comparison.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post

    I just heard Lage Lund do something - brilliant- kind of like 20th Century Classical Music -
    Just not for a large Urban Audience...the Rhythm is different underneath - but very brilliant playing and writing.





    But a bit more cerebral...
    A bit more cerebral? That's an understatement of the year.

    I wonder what Miles would say about that? probably not printable.

  5. #154

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    I play tamborim, rebolo, triangulo and ganza - for simple beats.

    I couldn't play pandeiro even before the arthritis in my thumb. Goddam hard instrument.

    I've heard a lot of bateria, but I've never played in one.

    A couple of observations:

    Playing 16th notes with a shaker would seem simple, but when a good Brazilian percussionist does it, there's an important difference. It swings harder, referring to ginga, Brazilian swing. It's that not-exactly-on-the-math timing.

    The guitar comp is basically putting a tamborim pattern in the right hand, with enough editing so it's not too busy. That's worth thinking about when learning to comp Brazilian jazz.

    The rebolo (or tan tan) may be good for getting used to the Big Two, without having to explain to your wife why you have surdo(s). Some players use a brush on the outside to get the ganza part, and then play surdo on the skin. I like playing with that instead of drumset sometimes. A good percussionist can do much more with the rebolo than that, but all that stuff is way over my head.

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    A bit more cerebral? That's an understatement of the year. I wonder what Miles would say about that? probably not printable.
    That's great ...I never do understatements, lol...I have heard him swing ...he has a relaxed swing more behind the beat.Tends to play chords a way behind the beat sometimes ...it's more like Classical Music: Here I can't exactly tell what he is listening to in the Rhythm Section:
    I would have to intentionally lag a lot to play those chords late like that, Not the Arps so much but the chords .Mike Stern is quite aggressive in swing both his chords and his single note playing.Sounds like he played in some funk bands when young .So both Stern and Lund would be nearly opposite in this regard having ZERO to do with actually being Black or White...it's just how people hear beats and process time..With picking ..some people's mechanics place them later ...longer pickstrokes, playing rest strokes with fingers or pick often shift people later in the beat.. not the speed ...but the lag time from each phrase start and note start and how long it takes their brain and fingers to actually make it happen in real time.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-29-2018 at 02:09 PM.

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    A bit more cerebral? That's an understatement of the year.

    I wonder what Miles would say about that? probably not printable.
    No doubt what Miles might say about it might differ from how he really felt?

    I like this...it's funny, people find this stuff so cerebral, and I suppose it is...but I also think it's a direct descendant from Miles' "second great" Quintet.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Mike Stern is quite aggressive in swing both his chords and his single note playing.
    Sounds like he played in some funk bands when young .
    You are aware that Miles called Stern 'fat time'?

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    but I also think it's a direct descendant from Miles' "second great" Quintet.
    I think so too, most modern jazz is, I suppose? But Herbie also wrote Watermelon Man and Chameleon, tells you where his roots are. Thats not to say I'm the biggest fan of the second quintet... But it's still much better.

    LL stuff has more to do with, like Robertkoa said, Classical music. Thats how it feels to me. It's all fine, but if I want Classical, there are better sources to listen to, jazzed up Classical is not to my taste.

  10. #159

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  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You are aware that Miles called Stern 'fat time'?
    Lol. No I remember a Stern Interview where he said Miles would sometimes tell him to 'play some of that Jimi Hendrix sh__ " when he wanted distortion and note bending.

    I saw Stern with Michael Brecker [ 3 hours ] and Stern was sitting down ,just a little chorus really clean , no bending ,playing great ...but Brecker was playing the most amazing stuff -stuff you couldn't even dream up was coming out of his horn and beautiful neo classical stuff from Electronic Wind Instrument...even Stern and the Band were sometimes visibly in awe...

    If somebody had taped that -it would have been a classic..Brecker was ridiculously "on" the whole performance.

    Listen to how tight Stern doubles Brecker on some of these parts , then takes a long wild solo but parts are really tighter than they look , lol, I mean his body language and looking kind of like Mick Jagger's younger brother and his more Rock tone (not always- when I saw him with Brecker he just had a little chorus) anyway - sometimes you don't notice his precision , and he looks like he's having fun onstage ..



    If you listen to Stern play with Brecker ...he can just cruise normally.

    If you listen to Metheny ..and Adam Rodgers they both have to pick it up a bit due in part to the more aggressive drummers and bassists that Brecker used:
    Metheny has so much excess motion I am surprised he made it to this point...[only a technical criticism- Metheny's musical abilities and writing are sky high ,obviously ]



    What a great Solo by Metheny - I recognize a few trademark licks of his but the lines are like melodic bebop (less chorus and delay too so less slurred sounding ) and closer to front of the measure than PM mostly plays at least with his own Rhythm Sections -not easy to play either -he goes for it anyway, he falls behind a bit later but Metheny doesn't only play stuff that's easy for him to do...


    Rodgers does the same thing when he plays with Brecker...he tightens up a bit retaining his style ..



    But only to a point ....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-30-2018 at 07:46 AM.

  12. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by aleksandar View Post
    So I heard Miles saying in an interview that white musicians seem to lag behind the beat, for whatever reason. What do you think about that, is he right, is there some cultural background contributing to the phenomena, if there is such...

    I live in Burkina Faso and the bass player I play with can't swing. I guess black people can't swing. Also, I have a happy life, my sweet sugar mama hadn't done left me, so I can't play the blues.

  13. #162
    Lage Lund might be playing more modern nowdays, but in his early days when still in Berklee i used to hear him play every week. He was studying with John Thomas, really about straight ahead lines in the Martino, Benson, Rodney Jones style, the staccato aggressive picking, etc. He really had that stuff down, killing. Guess his musical direction took him on a different path. Which again makes sense, considering where he 's coming from, (since we re talking about black and white musicians in this thread)..

  14. #163

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    You can hear that on the trio album I mentioned.

  15. #164

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    Trying to be a fiery bop player in NYC is coals to Newcastle

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Trying to be a fiery bop player in NYC is coals to Newcastle
    do you study these or have you really just absorbed this many phrases in everday life
    White belt
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  17. #166

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    Literally just absorbed

  18. #167

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    It’s like bebop - gotta learn those idioms

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Literally just absorbed
    i’ve google searched so many of your phrases i’m starting to get advertisements for fish and chips
    White belt
    My Youtube

  20. #169

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    "Do or bring something superfluous or unnecessary, as in Running the sprinkler while it's raining, that's carrying coals to Newcastle. This metaphor was already well known in the mid-1500s, when Newcastle-upon-Tyne had been a major coal-mining center for 400 years."
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989. Studied under Barry Harris 1990-1992 in NY.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter View Post
    Lage Lund might be playing more modern nowdays, but in his early days when still in Berklee i used to hear him play every week. He was studying with John Thomas, really about straight ahead lines in the Martino, Benson, Rodney Jones style, the staccato aggressive picking, etc. He really had that stuff down, killing. Guess his musical direction took him on a different path. Which again makes sense, considering where he 's coming from, (since we re talking about black and white musicians in this thread)..
    Where is he coming from? In Europe there are others, like ummm Jesse Van Ruler (I think his name?), he's got it, no excuses. Some others I've heard and enjoyed.

    I wanna hear LL playing a dixieland jazz, swing jazz, low down dirty blues. I'd change my mind about his artistic approach then. But my money is he wouldn't fare well in those genres. Could be wrong, and we'll never find out anyway. Cats like this are too hip for it. Steve Swallow wasn't, and that was a revelation.

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Where is he coming from? In Europe there are others, like ummm Jesse Van Ruler (I think his name?), he's got it, no excuses. Some others I've heard and enjoyed.

    I wanna hear LL playing a dixieland jazz, swing jazz, low down dirty blues. I'd change my mind about his artistic approach then. But my money is he wouldn't fare well in those genres. Could be wrong, and we'll never find out anyway. Cats like this are too hip for it. Steve Swallow wasn't, and that was a revelation.
    Interesting, what's the Steve Swallow example of this?

    People who can't play dixieland or swing are missing out IMO - there's a deep thing there that's great to connect to.... And it crops up with the most unexpected players too lol. I know Lage did check out Django though, so who knows?

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Interesting, what's the Steve Swallow example of this?

    People who can't play dixieland or swing are missing out IMO - there's a deep thing there that's great to connect to.... And it crops up with the most unexpected players too lol. I know Lage did check out Django though, so who knows?
    Someone posted here an interview of Swallow and Scofield, and Steve was talking about his NYC days when he was doing dixie gigs and avantguard jazz gigs. He emphasized that it was going in parallel, sometimes even on a same day, and he had to be authentic in either style, because the old guys in dixie bands wouldn't tolerate any BS.

    In my mind there is no question Steve Swallow nailed it, the feel he plays with would fit anything, and together with Sco they are unstoppable. Question is... how do you go from this to LL, how the modern jazz ended up here?

    Yes, I'm on LL slagging off kick, he wouldn't care, and it brings me joy.

  24. #173

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    I know it's old hat now in the thread, but I will say there is a distinct difference in rhythmic undercurrent between working professional jazz musicians in NYC vs Bay Area, drummers in particular. I actually feel like, as a bassist, I don't push as much playing with NYC drummers I've gigged with since I've been back, since they are generally rhythmically very on top of the beat. Whereas even with really good drummers in the bay area, I'd find myself playing more on top of the beat.

    So for me, as a bassist, I definitely push when others in the band are more in the center of the beat, but play more in the center when I know the drummer will push. If drummer has a pronounced Elvin-ish lilt (very few do, in my experience), I try to channel Jimmy Garrison, who plays in the center but with a lot of grease (triplets, ghost notes, skips, etc).

  25. #174

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    Great to have a bass player's perspective - every rhythm section has its own dynamic.

  26. #175

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    The bass player I'm gigging with a lot, a very talented young man, he plays with Gypsy guys, trad guys, and the Smalls kind of crowd. He can play it all, and love it all too.

    We were talking about that, and he said something that confirms my view: trad jazz cats who don't have experience with contemporary jazz will have easier time to adjust to it than the other way around. The contemporary jazzers who never played trad are lacking in the rhythm, it's as simple as that.

  27. #176

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    Roswell Rudd the trombonist had deep trad roots but also did the avant thing as well as anyone.

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    The bass player I'm gigging with a lot, a very talented young man, he plays with Gypsy guys, trad guys, and the Smalls kind of crowd. He can play it all, and love it all too.

    We were talking about that, and he said something that confirms my view: trad jazz cats who don't have experience with contemporary jazz will have easier time to adjust to it than the other way around. The contemporary jazzers who never played trad are lacking in the rhythm, it's as simple as that.
    I agree, and I also think the same thing holds for latin musics. It's not uncommon for me to play with brazilians who are pretty swinging, but the various rhythmic feel in latin musics can be really specific and not at all easy to pick up.

  29. #178

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    Thanks for this thread, I was also thinking about this statement from Miles since I heard it first time. (note: I am aware that Miles did not say or believed the following, just keep reading). Skip to the video in case you have no time, that is the point.

    - Decades ago I used to believe, that white musician can not play "real Jazz".
    - Then I refined to used to believe, that although white musician can play real jazz, but can not "real swing"
    - Then more later I recognized, making statements including "real something" is bad sign
    (then I recognized that two kind of people exist, one who divides people to two groups and one who not :-)

    ***

    Back to the lagging thing. I always thought everybody is lagging, especially when swinging, then literally swinging between lagging and rushing. Miles is not exception, so his statement is indeed interesting, he is great and lagging like hell or am I missing something?

    Last edited by Gabor; 10-05-2018 at 11:25 AM.

  30. #179

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    I hadn’t heard that before! Whispering, nice old tune.

    Yeah, I think I covered my understanding of the nature of jazz time feel above and I stand by it.

    Summary:

    Rhythm sections push, horns lag back. Sometimes, in the case of Errol Garner you have an example where famously the right hand is behind the left hand rhythmically.

    But everyone catches the upbeat when playing single time so it sits in pocket.

    If you watch David Bruce’s latest video he talks about micro rhythm. He discusses Errol Garner briefly.

    I’m going to release a video on practicing swing feel 8ths next week.

    My theory: People get confused about this, esp with respect to practicing with a click which is why people today tend to play double time at medium tempo. Players who don’t do this tend to be the ones that have learned most by playing with records.

  31. #180

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    Regarding lagging, I can’t say if it is a racial thing, but the guy I used to study with who is a pretty good player and a jazz historian often encouraged me to lag slightly behind the beat, and to my ears it just never made sense and never sounded right.

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63 View Post
    Regarding lagging, I can’t say if it is a racial thing, but the guy I used to study with who is a pretty good player and a jazz historian often encouraged me to lag slightly behind the beat, and to my ears it just never made sense and never sounded right.
    I've always found it more helpful to focus on the locking in with the upbeats rather than worrying too much about the placement of the beats.

    The relationship between the soloists downbeats and bands beat is a microrhythm that's hard to get (and varies depending on the size of your dot and where the rhythm section is sitting) while it's quite clear to feel the difference between a straight and swung upbeat.

    So - feel the upbeats, and play nice and even, don't try to swing - that was the framing that helped me....

  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I've always found it more helpful to focus on the locking in with the upbeats rather than worrying too much about the placement of the beats.

    The relationship between the soloists downbeats and bands beat is a microrhythm that's hard to get (and varies depending on the size of your dot and where the rhythm section is sitting) while it's quite clear to feel the difference between a straight and swung upbeat.

    So - feel the upbeats, and play nice and even, don't try to swing - that was the framing that helped me....
    Interesting ....I honestly did not ( and possibly still don't analytically get this ..lol)

    BUT in actual 'hearing 'it mentally ...or listening to Charlie Parker ...it sounds like his 'upbeats' do seem to do what you are saying ...is that correct ?

    You ( personally ) end up with a more ' graceful' natural swing by doing this as opposed to the slightly' pushed swing' that I use - probably got in my head somewhere from listening to Benson - because If I tried to do it knowing me it would have taken 20 years .

    Anyway ...the way you expressed it in the post above seems less complex than how you expressed it before ...

    I can actually hear what you are saying- although I am guessing will help people who are a little more advanced [ enough to listen to their own phrases while they play and control the flow ] as I am ...than early students -

    But I think now that you might have a really good condensed idea there ..especially for someone who teaches or for intermediate and advanced Players.

    When I said earlier that ' most people reference downbeats ' I mean generally like conductors, teachers ( like you ), even audiences etc. I can play triplets or septuplets almost like a drummer locked to a metronome or beat or track and when they land on downbeats is how everyone can tell they are tight - HOWEVER I agree that color is added by intentionally lagging
    a little- on Solos.
    Most singers would sound totally odd if they were dead On-Beat all the time .Even Benson and Charlie Parker move intentionally [like on 'Confirmation '- where CP inserts that little quote with a different time feel than the rest of the line and makes it work effortlessy ]

    I can actually hear the upbeats thing , although that's not how I did it....but I like that idea now that I get it ...it's like some of Reg's Theory posts ...you kind of have to grow into them.

    Your idea though or description might help me create even cooler Rhythm Chord Patterns that don't need to always start on the 'One ' etc.

    The reason I know I have good time and the way you could tell is when I sync triplets almost like a drummer ...and it's the downbeats that let the Public know .

    But- I hear syncopations and play them and that's how I can actually' hear ' what you are talking about in that post above- although I don't 'swing' that way -I just 'hear' the whole thing.

    Parker may be the most effortless ,graceful , of improvisers (not that I am an authority on all Jazzers ) and if I listen to CP and ignore the syncopation volumes -I can actually hear the upbeats as you say syncing .

    Your earlier Post on this went over my head - syncing upbeats I think is a heightened awareness -or may lead to it.

    Actually on Reggae for example - most of us probably do that anyway [!] but subconsciously .. your Concept takes it further - ,obviously - a very cool idea .

    I like how I swing now on lines so I don't want to use the upbeat sync idea ( messes with my brain lol ) for that BUT I can absolutely use it on 'picked and plucked ' rhythms ...or all fingers Rhythms where I imitate a mediocre Piano Player ( with good time though).

    I have never consciously ' synced upbeats '
    as you describe but as I said - Reggae Rhythm Guitar - We all do already WITHOUT thinking - but your thing becoming more aware and doing it consciously is excellent. [ copyright and trademark it now ]

    I think it is a very good concept - once you get over the ' Vertigo ' ( lol ) from feeling the pulse this way - it may sharpen up or create a heightened awareness of musical time ...( like the Crest Toothpaste commercial - when used in a properly applied program of oral hygiene and regular professional care ..haha.....)

    Like I can hybrid pick a lot of Rhythms like 'Higher Ground ' by Stevie W where the pick does a 16th Pattern on the bottom strings while I pluck the i -bIII -IV on top..

    But for more sophisticated rhythms where the 16th notes are not all played but implied or there's Rhythmic Fingerpicking
    on top or syncopated chords coming in and out of the Pattern - your idea really gives a second perspective for creating holes in patterns [without the Clave effect as a crutch on the lower strings hitting every note ].
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-06-2018 at 01:41 PM.

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Interesting ....I honestly did not ( and possibly still don't analytically get this ..lol)

    BUT in actual 'hearing 'it mentally ...or listening to Charlie Parker ...it sounds like his 'upbeats' do seem to do what you are saying ...is that correct ?

    You ( personally ) end up with a more ' graceful' natural swing by doing this as opposed to the slightly' pushed swing' that I use - probably got in my head somewhere from listening to Benson - because If I tried to do it knowing me it would have taken 20 years .

    Anyway ...the way you expressed it in the post above seems less complex than how you expressed it before ...

    I can actually hear what you are saying- although I am guessing will help people who are a little more advanced [ enough to listen to their own phrases while they play and control the flow ] as I am ...than early students -

    But I think now that you might have a really good condensed idea there ..especially for someone who teaches or for intermediate and advanced Players.

    When I said earlier that ' most people reference downbeats ' I mean generally like conductors, teachers ( like you ), even audiences etc. I can play triplets or septuplets almost like a drummer locked to a metronome or beat or track and when they land on downbeats is how everyone can tell they are tight - HOWEVER I agree that color is added by intentionally lagging
    a little- on Solos.
    Most singers would sound totally odd if they were dead On-Beat all the time .Even Benson and Charlie Parker move intentionally [like on 'Confirmation '- where CP inserts that little quote with a different time feel than the rest of the line and makes it work effortlessy ]

    I can actually hear the upbeats thing , although that's not how I did it....but I like that idea now that I get it ...it's like some of Reg's Theory posts ...you kind of have to grow into them.

    Your idea though or description might help me create even cooler Rhythm Chord Patterns for me .

    The reason I know I have good time and the way you could tell is when I sync triplets almost like a drummer ...and it's the downbeats that let the Public know .

    But- I hear syncopations and play them and that's how I can actually' hear ' what you are talking about in that post above- although I don't 'swing' that way -I just 'hear' the whole thing.

    Parker may be the most effortless ,graceful , of improvisers (not that I am an authority on all Jazzers ) and if I listen to CP and ignore the syncopation volumes -I can actually hear the upbeats as you say syncing .

    Your earlier Post on this went over my head - syncing upbeats I think is a heightened awareness -or may lead to it.

    Actually on Reggae for example - most of us probably do that anyway [!] but subconsciously .. your Concept takes it further - ,obviously - a very cool idea .

    I like how I swing now on lines so I don't want to use the upbeat sync idea ( messes with my brain lol ) for that BUT I can absolutely use it on 'picked and plucked ' rhythms ...or all fingers Rhythms where I imitate a mediocre Piano Player ( with good time though).

    I have never consciously ' synced upbeats '
    as you describe but as I said - Reggae Rhythm Guitar - We all do already WITHOUT thinking - but your thing becoming more aware and doing it consciously is excellent. [ copyright and trademark it now ]

    I think it is a very good concept - once you get over the ' Vertigo ' ( lol ) from feeling the pulse this way - it may sharpen up or create a heightened awareness of musical time ...( like the Crest Toothpaste commercial - when used in a properly applied program of oral hygiene .....)

    Like I can hybrid pick a lot of Rhythms like 'Higher Ground ' by Stevie W where the pick does a 16th Pattern on the bottom strings while I pluck the i -bIII -IV on top..

    But for more sophisticated rhythms where the 16th notes are not all played but implied or there's Rhythmic Fingerpicking
    on top or syncopated chords coming in and out of the Pattern - your idea really gives a second perspective for creating holes in patterns [without the Clave effect as a crutch] on the lower strings hitting every note .
    Hey - that's great. Some thoughts

    1) It's not *my* idea! You might want to take another look at that Charles McPherson Do the Math interview. I would regard what he's talking as a language that musicians can understand.

    Interview with Charles McPherson | DO THE M@TH

    2) With that in mind, there's a division to made between the nerdy science side of it (which can help conceptually) and the intuitive aspect of 'how this feels' as well as exercises and language that can actually lock it in for a student. This is true of any aspect of music. (A musician doesn't need to know about the overtone series to hear a major chord etc.)

    I don't think this video is actually suggesting that Gnawa or Samba musicians actually need to know any of this math to play their music it's just an interesting thing to make a YouTube vid about.



    3) The difference between a swung and straight upbeat is an obvious aspect of the music that you have to learn to hear and place accurately. At fast tempos this difference becomes really very small, more a nuance. Playing straight against swung IS a resource you hear from players.

    4) In the case of Benson example I posted, Billie's Bounce, his medium tempo rhythmic vocabulary is so varied it's actually quite hard to compare him to other guitar players directly.

  35. #184

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    I enjoyed the video.

    I'd add one point.

    The placement of those beats is dependent on tempo. So, even if you can notate them correctly using standard notation at one tempo, the resulting notation would be incorrect at another tempo.

    An effective notation system would somehow have to quantify certain intervals as a variable percentage of the tempo - and even that might not be right. I guess I can imagine putting all that info into future notation software, then inputting a tempo and having the software notate it correctly at that chosen tempo. But, it isn't clear that anybody could actually read it.

  36. #185

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    Yeah...I heard the delay instantly on comparing the quantized version versus the other original feel .

    Micro Rhythm is something I referred to earlier in this thread in terms of a few milliseconds and indeed on my synced Guitar Triplets and sextuplets ..to get them to land on the following ' one 'the second grouping especially the fourth note ( the second group of tuplets must be accented on the first one and generally accented and moved forward in the beat to 'flow smoothly ' - perfect quantization won't work as well as a time sensitive Player can do for this.

    This Guy seems like a straight up academic who can notate and program but would not be able to play micro rhythms in real time .

    The two examples to me would be actual different Beats or subsequences not micro variations of the same beat .

    I could play Rhythm Guitar Parts [ without being able to motate them accurately lol ]

    That would A] Fit one track but not the other
    B] Fit Both tracks

    Merely by keying and syncing NOT to upbeats but the precise percussion instruments.


    Remember that in the 1970s I recorded 30 and 60 second Musical Commercials Guitar first then other Musicians recorded to the same click track with my Guitar in the Cue .....

    No computers , no quantize ,no cell phones, ...there was electricity ...lol.

    Micro Time I referred to much earlier in this thread ..

    Not the same as syncing to upbeats.

    Again the two examples he posted would be different pattern numbers in my
    sequencer [ although I don't have one now ] I have not done a Project since 2000 which was Music for a young R&B singer -

    I always thought since I did the Commercials that unless I had serious chops it would not be profitable to present myself as a Guitarist/Artist...but I have been able to do studio tight Rhythm or Fingerstyle parts for a long while .

    So micro time and syncing to upbeats are two different things to me and this guy is aware of the phenomenon from programming / writing but probably can't play it in real time.

    Just a guess.

    I told you earlier in the thread that the typical time feel between Benson and someone like Rodgers is only a few milliseconds forward or back in the Beat.
    That's microtime....feel.

    Syncing parts to upbeats is a different thing to me ...which can be expanded to creating new Rhythms on Guitar from the same ' parent' track .

    When I record ...with 4 or 5 takes in each style I could get very I close to either time feel ...

    And do one solo that sounds like Rodgers and one like Benson.

    I'll put that on the list.

    I probably have a tighter time feel than most because I recorded professionally as Rhythm Guitarist and some Fingerstyle on commercials when young before sequencers, computers , cell phones...lol on multitrack tape...my guitar was the first instrument recorded to the click...

    Some of my Rhythm Parts now are like swing [R&B swing ] classical guitar parts ...it has to be in time ...or will fall apart.

    Cats = Dogs no . They are different.

    Microtime = Syncing to upbeats - no. Two entirely different things to me

    Micro Rhythm is just a catchy term for what you have to do when you record professionally - as I have said on Musical Commercials or Pop or R&B -you do NOT get to choose your 'time feel ' on Rhythm Parts /Secondary Rhythm overdubs / fingerstyle /fingerstyle overdubs -they Sync or they don't- soloing (which I did not do ) is/ can be slighty different .


    >>ALSO on Mr Micro Rhythm Video there are a few percussion hits NOT present in the
    straight version ....which ARE present on the Pushed Version.

    I do a lot of Rhythmic Variations on Guitar which I don't know how to notate but could laboriously learn - which is not productive
    for me right now.

    Student Mode and Production Mode are absolutely 2 different things .

    I could easily demonstrate on Guitar what I am saying and tightly - which is horribly egotistical and immodest but true.

    I sound analytical here but am merely a Rhythmatist on Guitar ...in an overt way .

    Jazz Musicians tend to groove for the approval of other Jazz Musicians - I am going more for the Crowd ....unless I am trying to prove a point .....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-11-2019 at 09:42 AM.

  37. #186

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    Such a fascinating conversation. Learning a lot, been puzzled some, and tried all sorts of things.

    I just realized I innately understand the concept of a culturally different musical ... perception? ... again from my classical vocal lessons.

    English vocal music tends to have each word or syllable of an aria having it's own note in the score. Especially music of the last 150 years.

    Given the actual score of Italian and French arias ti sing ... was a bit of a shock at first.

    You may have a vocal run of a phrase mostly in eighth notes ... but there will be 2, 3, or 4 syllable/sound words thrown in that phrase, each with only one written note.

    WHAT THE .... ?

    I was told the singer has to just learn how to add in all that within the context of the line as notated. Sometimes it's appropriate to simply turn a pair of written eighths into a triplet or "quartlet" figure, but often one or more syllables need more emphasis.

    So then, ya gotta ... naturally ... feel the appropriate way to sing it expressively. And what you sing, if done accurately to the *intent* of the written line, won't be anything *like* the written line.

    "So, you're telling me I have to do something "naturally" that is different than all previous training, practice, and performance?"

    My vocal teacher's response, with a twinkle in her eye: Yup. Start working!

    Sheesh, that ... was not easy. Mostly accomplished. Many arias I was able to get past thinking about it and just do it. There was still the occasional one that just didn't ... fit somehow.

    And changing the tempo would often throw this out the window.

    Very much like ... swing.

    And as we all know, it don't mean a thing...

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  38. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Yeah...I heard the delay instantly on comparing the quantized version versus the other original feel .

    Micro Rhythm is something I referred to earlier in this thread in terms of a few milliseconds and indeed on my synced Guitar Triplets and sextuplets ..to get them to land on the following ' one 'the second grouping especially the fourth note ( the second group of tuplets must be accented on the first one and generally accented and moved forward in the beat to 'flow smoothly ' - perfect quantization won't work as well as a time sensitive Player can do for this.

    This Guy seems like a straight up academic who can notate and program but would not be able to play micro rhythms in real time .
    David Bruce is a classically trained composer who works primarily with written notation, but is also interested in groove and rhythm, so he has a particular problem with this stuff - how to notate grooves for classical musicians?

    Whether or not he could actually play them is kind of a moot point because he's not a performer, but I suspect he would try and get to a point where he could demonstrate things in rehearsal etc.

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by rNeil View Post
    Such a fascinating conversation. Learning a lot, been puzzled some, and tried all sorts of things.

    I just realized I innately understand the concept of a culturally different musical ... perception? ... again from my classical vocal lessons.

    English vocal music tends to have each word or syllable of an aria having it's own note in the score. Especially music of the last 150 years.

    Given the actual score of Italian and French arias ti sing ... was a bit of a shock at first.

    You may have a vocal run of a phrase mostly in eighth notes ... but there will be 2, 3, or 4 syllable/sound words thrown in that phrase, each with only one written note.

    WHAT THE .... ?

    I was told the singer has to just learn how to add in all that within the context of the line as notated. Sometimes it's appropriate to simply turn a pair of written eighths into a triplet or "quartlet" figure, but often one or more syllables need more emphasis.

    So then, ya gotta ... naturally ... feel the appropriate way to sing it expressively. And what you sing, if done accurately to the *intent* of the written line, won't be anything *like* the written line.

    "So, you're telling me I have to do something "naturally" that is different than all previous training, practice, and performance?"

    My vocal teacher's response, with a twinkle in her eye: Yup. Start working!

    Sheesh, that ... was not easy. Mostly accomplished. Many arias I was able to get past thinking about it and just do it. There was still the occasional one that just didn't ... fit somehow.

    And changing the tempo would often throw this out the window.

    Very much like ... swing.

    And as we all know, it don't mean a thing...

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    It's interesting you bring this up as I studied as a singer as well a while back. I always found that aspect of Italian song very tricky....

    French song I just could not do.

  40. #189

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    Oh ... Lord... my French.

    I can say and sing decent German. Fairly nice Norwegian. Not bad on the Italian arias either.

    French.

    My daughter learned to speak it well from an amazing teacher in high school. She was home for a year after college while my bi-language voice teacher was working with me on a couple French arias. Clearly, with great difficulty from her point of view.

    One day she got a chance to talk a bit of French with The Daughter. Was very pleased and told me to say and sing French with Anna in the room.

    I'm practicing one day, Anna sitting and reading while listening. Suddenly she started laughing so hard she rolled to the floor holding her sides for a good 3-4 minutes of howling with laughter.

    I wasn't particularly amused but waited patiently until she could talk again.

    "Daddy I just figured out your problem. It's not that you're using an American accent to sing French, you're using your Norwegian accent and that's why it's so funny!"

    Next voice lesson, at the start of the lesson, I shared Anna's observation.

    My voice teach spent the next couple minutes bent over the electric keyboard she was sitting at. And nearly made it to the floor herself.

    It's such a huge confidence builder for a singer to provide such humor to others.

    That's a decade back now. Anna still makes comments on it. I haven't been in vocal lessons for some years, but see my teach occasionally.

    A frequent comment is "Any progress on that French?"

    Yes, it's so good to provide such a lift and so much joy to others ...



    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  41. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post

    Not the same as syncing to upbeats.

    Again the two examples he posted would be different pattern numbers in my
    sequencer [ although I don't have one now ] I have not done a Project since 2000 which was Music for a young R&B singer -

    I always thought since I did the Commercials that unless I had serious chops it would not be profitable to present myself as a Guitarist/Artist...but I have been able to do studio tight Rhythm or Fingerstyle parts for a long while .

    So micro time and syncing to upbeats are two different things to me and this guy is aware of the phenomenon from programming / writing but probably can't play it in real time.

    Just a guess.

    I told you earlier in the thread that the typical time feel between Benson and someone like Rodgers is only a few milliseconds forward or back in the Beat.
    That's microtime....feel.

    Syncing parts to upbeats is a different thing to me ...which can be expanded to creating new Rhythms on Guitar from the same ' parent' track .

    When I record ...with 4 or 5 takes in each style I could get very I close to either time feel ...

    And do one solo that sounds like Rodgers and one like Benson.

    I'll put that on the list.

    I probably have a tighter time feel than most because I recorded professionally as Rhythm Guitarist and some Fingerstyle on commercials when young before sequencers, computers , cell phones...lol on multitrack tape...my guitar was the first instrument recorded to the click...

    Some of my Rhythm Parts now are like swing [R&B swing ] classical guitar parts ...it has to be in time ...or will fall apart.

    Cats = Dogs no . They are different.

    Microtime = Syncing to upbeats - no. Two entirely different things to me
    Microrhythms I think is a purely academic/scientific concept. If you are learning Samba, you learn to swing the Samba by playing the shaker, for instance, or bouncing the drum stick just so, creates the natural cadence and swing of the rhythm that was analysed in the video. Presumably in Gnawa it's similar.

    'Playing drunk' to get the Dilla quintuplet swing all the kids now think is passe.... (Man that is so 2014)

    In the same way, learning to play straight, even and late while feeling the upbeats is how we develop a mature 8th note swing feel (in so much as there's a method for it) but the result is a microrhyhmic nuance.

    The concept of pushing is an example of a 'feel' thing related to microrhythm.

    With the Benson thing you are really going to have to give me some concrete examples, perhaps recording that DAW track would be (I've messed with it myself a little.)

    I'm willing to accept that Benson is much more accented and articulated, and may lie straighter at up tempos as with that Charlie Christian example, but I'm still hearing that swinging upbeat in the same way as with Parker. I'm talking about early Benson here, for instance:



    There is a tautness and precision in that rhythm which is just amazing, but you can feel from the way that Slyde is tapping the triplet that triplet upbeat is still there because of the way he locks in. It's just so crisply and exactly articulated that it sounds more positive and energised than most jazz guitarists. It's magic.

    However, he isn't dotting his eighths too much, so his downbeats have to fall behind the beat. He sounds locked in and funky though, rather than behind the beat. I suspect this is down to the precision and energy of his upbeat articulation.

    I also feel he pushes the chord stabs when they lie on the beat - it's like Errol Garner again, exactly what I'd expect.

    (Adam Rogers - great sense of groove - but very different way of articulating, much more even and smooth. Less rhythm variety in his lines when he's running changes. I also don't really imagine Rogers playing this kind of dancey swing feel.)

    OTOH playing STRAIGHT upbeats against medium swing is also a thing, and you can hear it in players including Benson, Grant Green, Miles, Prez but not generally for a whole solo....
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-06-2018 at 05:17 PM.

  42. #191

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    Interesting ..Agree about Rodgers ...he really likes that even articulation ...perfectly spaced notes really even up and downstrokes and he doesn't sound late but a hair behind the beat ...he carves out his own space...he talks about bringing a bit of [Classical ] Pedagogy to Jazz though he doesn't use that word.
    I can only play like that for a short time lol.

    Like in your Video on Tonality you were on your 175 and just tossing off lines and Arps with crisp attack and a pretty snappy time feel ...to play like Rodgers requires being
    'careful ' and it sounds cool when he does it but most great Jazzers on Guitar and especially Sax don't sound 'careful' .




    But he sounds perfect on the Bach and his time is right on for Classical against the click ...




    Can you post a few examples of the playing straight upbeats against medium swing ? I want to make sure I can hear that or see if I can ...also if they don't do it for a whole Solo ...I should hear the difference in the phrase .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-06-2018 at 11:54 PM.

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Interesting ..Agree about Rodgers ...he really likes that even articulation ...perfectly spaced notes really even up and downstrokes and he doesn't sound late but a hair behind the beat ...he carves out his own space...he talks about bringing a bit of [Classical ] Pedagogy to Jazz though he doesn't use that word.
    I can only play like that for a short time lol.

    Like in your Video on Tonality you were on your 175 and just tossing off lines and Arps with crisp attack and a pretty snappy time feel ...to play like Rodgers requires being
    'careful ' and it sounds cool when he does it but most great Jazzers on Guitar and especially Sax don't sound 'careful' .




    But he sounds perfect on the Bach and his time is right on for Classical against the click ...




    Can you post a few examples of the playing straight upbeats against medium swing ? I want to make sure I can hear that or see if I can ...also if they don't do it for a whole Solo ...I should hear the difference in the phrase .
    Hey thanks, I think I am going more for the snappy funky crispy thing than the modern time/feel at least at the moment - it depends on the music and the feel to some extent of course, but I take that as a high compliment.

    Careful is a good word. Careful I think is where a metronome gets you and working very hard on evening out articulation.

    With AR, his playing is somewhat diverse - his tele and strat playing is a bit different to his 335 playing. But he does the very even 8th note thing to a high art. It's an aesthetic and yes it comes at least partly from Bach. There's a 'held back' thing with AR which be kind of mesmerising and powerful in its own way. BTW I've probably studied AR more than George (which isn't saying much lol!)

    With the straight on swung it's such a nuance it can be a bit hard to track down, but here's a nice example from Grant Green who for is such a zen master of this type of stuff, solo starts around 4:00 with the most sublime medium tempo swing feel. Later on he straightens the upbeat (to my ears) briefly for a certain stylistic effect, and then for a bit more of a prolonged time. It's kind of typical for Blue Note horn players to use this, too... You'll hear it I reckon.



    On a related note, isn't amazing how his triplets don't sound like triplets?

    I think part of what makes this possible is what Philly Joe is doing, it becomes quite possible to impose a straight rhythm on it and that to swing HARD. I hear Miles doing the same thing, but would need to track down.

  44. #193

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    I hear the rhythm timing changes in Green's solo . .
    I can feel the Drummer doing something
    but can't figure it out (lucky I don't need to ).
    I like the slightly 'Soul Jazz 'feel of this Group. More fun to hear .

    I have heard of Green but oddly he is more known [ magazines etc.] for his Rhythm Style right ?

    Oops -they forgot to mention his great Solos and feel -I have read Posts about him here though.

    He is so cool ...he quotes a straight blues lick ..during the more 'straight time ' then
    the Drummer does that flam thing and pushes Green back into swing on the last part of the Solo- I can't fully get exactly what the drummer is doing ( !) .

    I played unplugged to my phone and it was very easy to play to this Tune (NOT doing the subtle time feel changes Green does).

    He does a decending chromatic 'turnaround ' kinda - in his Solo that no one is actually playing - cool idea .

    Rodgers - yes I heard his Strat Playing a bit. He is very ' no spam ' ..lol I have a lot of that in my playing .
    To get close to Rodgers feel - playing Classical type time and slightly legato is the Key for me - but I have to be 'careful '.

    When I play with my 'normal 'swing - I don't have to be 'careful' at all ..

    Triplets - as I said I can do triplets Classical OR Jazz across 3 strings which will surprise people so ..IF I do it like Classical...totally even ( slightly less perfect than Rodgers admittedly ) even no accents equidistant etc. it's very even and more boring .

    IF I do the same thing in R&B or Hard Swing Jazz ..
    The 4th note ( the first note in the second grouping of 3 ) is accented ( louder ) and moved forward along with the second grouping very slighty.

    I can do this across strings at double time in triads or 7th 3rd Root patterns all over the neck almost like a drummer....don't think it's possible without out alt picking because alt repeats perfectly even at shred speeds.

    When I have a CD for sale - we can have some contests with semi famous people-
    I have a sense of humor about my Playing and shortcomings so will be fun.

    Will I be hard to cut on my own changes ?

    Absolutely ...even semi famous Players...


    But can creative Jazzers including guys on this Forum play prettier and cooler and better lines than me and chord melody and lots of stuff that I would never 'hear '?Over all types of changes ?

    Absolutely .Happens all the time...lol.



    I just do it by feel but this is very evident in Ragtime -twisting Chet Atkins style Travis Picking into Ragtime on Guitar was something I started a long time ago when I was doing a lot of finger style Acoustic- I found it much harder than regular folk stuff .

    Anyway ..the idea of <consciously >
    swinging upbeats in order to cheat Mother Nature into making us have time feel near as good as Master Players who did it naturally ( lol ) is a really great idea IMO.

    The Mobley Tune is simple enough that I was able to do silly wide interval 5ths 6ths 7ths upbeat sync while doing an overall descending pattern and it creates a strong syncopated swing .(!) Not subtle either ...it is really there.

    I can really hear this in Ragtime Piano Players and the triplets ..

    The * first 'computer programmers ' who cut the holes in the Piano Rolls could show us how they changed the holes from Classical/even time to 'RAG-time' especially if we asked *them about triplets ...I bet . *Or their grandsons.

    I should add after just fingerpicking on my Guitar ...that for Modern 'hard swing' stuff...the strict alternating bass ( low strings on Guitar - not actual Bassline ) like in Ragtime or Atkins / Tommy Emanuel type fingerpicking ALSO has to be changed ...

    Emmanuel -Virtuoso that he is might be able to do this in a snap ...just mentioning it...

    I am thinking if I listen to Art Tatum - he was a significant departure from Ragtime in his left hand ...I'd rather feel good about my chops than listen to him right now ...lol.

    EDIT - as Hep to the Jive points out below -I have confused Freddy Green with Grant Green in this Post!

    Oops . .Thanks for the catch .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-08-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  45. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I hear the rhythm changes in Green's solo . .
    I can feel the Drummer doing something
    but can't figure it out (lucky I don't need to ).
    I like the slightly 'Soul Jazz 'feel of this Group. More fun to hear .

    I have heard of Green but oddly he is more known [ magazines etc.] for his Rhythm Style right ?

    Oops -they forgot to mention his great Solos and feel -I have read Posts about him here though.

    He is so cool ...he quotes a straight blues lick ..during the more 'straight time ' then
    the Drummer does that flam thing and pushes Green back into swing on the last part of the Solo- I can't fully get exactly what the drummer is doing ( !) .

    I played unplugged to my phone and it was very easy to play to this Tune (NOT doing the subtle time feel changes Green does).

    He does a decending chromatic 'turnaround ' kinda - in his Solo that no one is actually playing - cool idea .

    Rodgers - yes I heard his Strat Playing a bit. He is very ' no spam ' ..lol I have a lot of that in my playing .
    To get close to Rodgers feel - playing Classical type time and slightly legato is the Key for me - but I have to be 'careful '.

    When I play with my 'normal 'swing - I don't have to be 'careful' at all ..

    Triplets - as I said I can do triplets Classical OR Jazz across 3 strings which will surprise people so ..IF I do it like Classical...totally even ( slightly less perfect than Rodgers admittedly ) even no accents equidistant etc. it's very even and more boring .

    IF I do the same thing in R&B or Hard Swing Jazz ..
    The 4th note ( the first note in the second grouping of 3 ) is accented ( louder ) and moved forward along with the second grouping very slighty.

    I can do this across strings at double time in triads or 7th 3rd Root patterns all over the neck almost like a drummer....don't think it's possible without out alt picking because alt repeats perfectly even at shred speeds.

    When I have a CD for sale - we can have some contests with semi famous people-
    I have a sense of humor about my Playing and shortcomings so will be fun.

    Will I be hard to cut on my own changes ?

    Absolutely ...even semi famous Players...


    But can creative Jazzers including guys on this Forum play prettier and cooler and better lines than me and chord melody and lots of stuff that I would never 'hear '?Over all types of changes ?

    Absolutely .Happens all the time...lol.



    I just do it by feel but this is very evident in Ragtime -twisting Chet Atkins style Travis Picking into Ragtime on Guitar was something I started a long time ago when I was doing a lot of finger style Acoustic- I found it much harder than regular folk stuff .

    Anyway ..the idea of ?consciously ?swinging upbeats in order to cheat Mother Nature into making us have time feel near as good as Master Players who did it naturally ( lol ) is a really great idea IMO.

    The Mobley Tune is simple enough that I was able to do silly wide interval 5ths 6ths 7ths upbeat sync while doing an overall descending pattern and it creates a strong syncopated swing .(!) Not subtle either ...it is really there.

    I can really hear this in Ragtime Piano Players and the triplets ..

    The * first 'computer programmers ' who cut the holes in the Piano Rolls could show us how they changed the holes from Classical/even time to 'RAG-time' especially if we asked *them about triplets ...I bet . *Or their grandsons.
    I think you're confused here- Freddie Green(Count Basie) is known for his rhythm style, I don't think he hardly ever played any leads. Grant Green is known for his solo lines, and conversely he hardly ever played any chords.

  46. #195

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    Yes that's correct ! I DID have them confused ...! Thanks .

  47. #196

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    Slightly soul jazz? SLIGHTLY?

  48. #197

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    Ok...My second mistake .lol
    I see they were called that in the press etc.
    Mobley's Bebop Blues might have led me to think it was mainstream Jazz then.

    I think I deserve a lot of credit for recognizing which part was the Guitar and which was the Sax ...I got that right on first hearing!
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-09-2018 at 05:59 AM.

  49. #198

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    I think the first computer programmers were actually weavers, using some sort of technology to control looms.

    The first computer designed was The Analytical Engine by Charles Babbage. He never completed it. Mid 1800's.

  50. #199

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    @RpJazz ..wow.Old rusty computers.

    But is my assumption correct that on Piano Rolls they had to move the holes to get the ' time' right ?

    Next Thread ' Do white piano rolls lag behind the beat more than the tan colored ones ?'

    I mean even if you look at Adam Rodgers versus Benson on a DAW - you won't be able to sit there and say ..".all I have to do is move my playing an average of 3.4 milliseconds forward and I will be like Benson".

    If you could do that from seeing it in a DAW ...you would be able to do it by adjusting anyway .

    I assume that I as a very non-gifted Guitarist - can do it because I was always able to do tight rhythm or fingerstyle Guitar Parts even when young in Recording.

    Play the Rhythm Guitar part in Benson's Take 5 [ the R&B part ] - there is no subjective 'feel ' thing it's either 'ON' or 'off time '.

    Classical is like that too .The Solos get a little leeway but Guitarists in general are sloppier than everyone else -

    THAT'S what Miles should have said..lol.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-07-2019 at 02:04 PM.

  51. #200

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    Sorry for resurrecting this thread. I wouldn't take that comment by Miles too seriously.

    It's an old myth. Once upon a time they used to believe that the color of the skin could tell if a person had rhythm in his blood. It's a diehard myth, even though some people appear to lack the rhythm gene I wouldn't assume any particular skin color being overrepresented.

    I just saw a little clip that reminded me of this thread. This is exactly what it feels like, getting lost on the bandstand. Everyone know what they're doing and you feel like a fraud. Keep smiling.