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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Hmmm for that we have Vernon Reid! Alas, he still didn't record his 'jazz' album (I think would be awesome if he did), but it's the first name that comes to my mind.
    And what about Alex Skolnick ?
    Make a jazz noise here

  2. #62
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    Listen to Lady Day sing...a black woman sitting so far back on the beat it must have made the players dizzy. Of course Lester too. Funny..I always thought Miles played behind the beat too!

    I recall a piece that Shearing played where he imitated Lady Day singing and the trick was to play way back on the beat with his right hand (melody) but play right on the beat with his left. Blew my mind. I will try to find it.
    Last edited by Roberoo; 06-19-2018 at 11:12 PM.

  3. #63
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    Dan Wilson does not play on top either, to my ears

  4. #64
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    The Shearing piece I mention above is Don't Explain (a key Billie Holiday song) where Shearing, with his right hand, seems to be trying to imitate Holiday's manner of sitting far back on the beat. His left hand tries to play straight. The effect appears strongly around 1:30 at the bridge...


  5. #65
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    I think Kurt does this a bit. On guitar. Check out the timing on the top of his solo, where he is imitating the two hands of the piano.



    His phrasing of single notes is late’n’straight (tm) while his playing of the comping chords is much more present and on top.

  6. #66
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    Anyway whatever your placement of the beat, the upbeats will synchronise to the ride upbeat apparently.

    Also as Wynton points out Billies phrases synchronise to the quarter triplet. There’s nothing lazy or late when looked at in that way.

  7. #67
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    Yes, it's about where you land your phrases. You can be pretty elastic with time but you have to sync up at some point. I agree somewhat with Wynton (as a general rule) but Holiday could pretty free and elastic in some tunes. I play with a singer in Ottawa that does a damn good imitation of Holiday's phrasing and timing and her guidance to the band is "don't listen to me or we will all be out of time"..a and she is right!


    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Anyway whatever your placement of the beat, the upbeats will synchronise to the ride upbeat apparently.

    Also as Wynton points out Billies phrases synchronise to the quarter triplet. There’s nothing lazy or late when looked at in that way.

  8. #68
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    What sounds free and elastic is often a higher order exactly executed rhythmic complexity. I feel this very strongly with Billie... I don't think she sat around counting this stuff, it came intuitively... But it's still grooving because it's related to higher order African Diaspora rhythms... .

    I hate sloppy 'backphrasing' - I LOVE Billie.

    For me Billie is very often about the second triplet off beat. If you displace a quarter triplet so it synchronises to 2 and 4 - it's a very hip phrasing device, and people will go 'that sounds behind the beat.' Try it... (Related to the West African bell pattern....)

  9. #69
    Yep. The problem with the way we talk about Billie's phrasing - and others - is in describing it as a variation of QUARTER notes or 8th notes or something. It's a variation of TRIPLETS.

    This type of thing is impossible to count - mathematically, the way we Westerners like to, when working this stuff. The great players didn't learn this feel from counting and concentrating. They learned it from playing slow blues with a 12/8 feel. It's a double stop feel.

    Triplets played with strict alternating hands for a drummer... Alternating hands for pianist or a rocking hand. Triplet double stops for guitarists are very basic sound for blooze. These are simple mechanical devices which any kid could play on these instruments , with a couple of minutes instruction. But that's because you're playing a MECHANICAL 2-part melodic element against 3.

    Anyway, when you play double stop triplets like Steve Cropper or whatever, the high voice is playing one set of quarter note triplets ON the beat, while the lower voice is playing the offbeat quarter note triplets or vice versa. I like to think of one being on and the other OFF, but this isn't really a good description when referencing four beats. That's the real problem is sinking up terminology between Western and non-Western. Triplets are really their own organizational structure , almost separate from the beat.

    Anyway, probably the easiest way to learn this is to tap quarter notes with alternating hands every time you're sitting waiting for the bus or in line or whatever. If you tap triplets RIGHT left right, LEFT right left etc... , your right hand is tapping on one and three , while your left hand is picking up two and four. if you practice singing tunes over this 12/8 feel while tapping, you begin to automatically feel the straighter rhythms with subdivisions between , and you also begin to start hearing the in between triplets and polyrhythm elements.

    When you're tapping triplets with alternating hands, you also begin to hear something else... just as you could be tapping "ONE and TWO and" with alternating hands, you can SUB the same type of phrasing over the triplet time base. So you begin to hear all of the "right-hand" triplet notes as basically being "on the beat" , and all of the left hand as being your new offbeat reference.

    The thing is , triplets effectively "rush " their non-triplet counterparts . So, you get all of this great phrasing and space. This phenomena actually DEMANDS that you basically start behind so that you can catch up and be AHEAD by the end of the phrase.

    This is the single BEST ASPECT in all of playing music in my opinion , and it actually infuriates me that we aren't taught this stuff from the VERY beginning in playing jazz. It's the most important element, And I think most of us learn it by accident or just playing a crap ton of different things.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-06-2018 at 06:35 PM.

  10. #70
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    White musicians lagging behind the beat

    That reminds me


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    What sounds free and elastic is often a higher order exactly executed rhythmic complexity. I feel this very strongly with Billie... I don't think she sat around counting this stuff, it came intuitively... But it's still grooving because it's related to higher order African Diaspora rhythms... .

    I hate sloppy 'backphrasing' - I LOVE Billie.

    For me Billie is very often about the second triplet off beat. If you displace a quarter triplet so it synchronises to 2 and 4 - it's a very hip phrasing device, and people will go 'that sounds behind the beat.' Try it... (Related to the West African bell pattern....)
    Nat Cole does this too on a bunch of stuff. It's definitely a 12/8 blues feel thing, and it's really fun to do.

    I do it now all the time comping over slower blues, just switching back and forth between the triplet feel. I think it's right there with swinging double-time in a feel you have to be able to do to convincingly play traditional jazz.

  12. #72
    I really like the more complex jazz examples, in talking about this stuff , but I hope it doesn't get lost that the basic quarter not triplet feel is just one half of a generic country or blues double stop. This stuff is basic to a type of musical phrasing which goes back about 80 years or so. You really need to be on top of this to play or sing country, bluegrass, R&B, folk tunes, almost anything really.

    Jazzers do this in a really compelling way , but at basic levels, it's simple and really just about 12/8 or simple double stops.

    Cheesy non-jazz stuff here:



    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Haven't watched the clip yet....(The Tour De France is on) but....many years ago I got myself lost in a fairly remote part of Senegal - I was following a weird bird call & ended up on a spur of land surrounded by water & couldn't find my way back.

    I'd assumed the increasing loud drumming was for my benefit but didn't know until the next day that the village Tama player had started by calling me by my name, when I didn't show he'd summoned the Mbeung mbeung player to ask the next village if I was there (I'd said I was going that way before the bird calls distracted me).They had a drum conversation about whether I was stupid enough to wander off into the bush on my own, and did someone need to get a boat into the Senegal river, at which point I showed up & was congratulated on my ability to understand the drums - I didn't confess until the next day that I was just following the noise...

    Several years later, my Wolof much improved, I was at a street dance in Dakar, the Tama player insulted me & it was immediately clear to everyone that I'd understood what he'd 'said' with the drum. I accepted his apology but declined both the offer of the drum to reply in kind, and several marriage proposals, one of my better nights...

  14. #74
    And...

    Muddy Waters, when asked what he thought of white blues musicians said pointedly

    'First, you gotta go to church.'

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75 View Post
    Haven't watched the clip yet....(The Tour De France is on) but....many years ago I got myself lost in a fairly remote part of Senegal - I was following a weird bird call & ended up on a spur of land surrounded by water & couldn't find my way back.

    I'd assumed the increasing loud drumming was for my benefit but didn't know until the next day that the village Tama player had started by calling me by my name, when I didn't show he'd summoned the Mbeung mbeung player to ask the next village if I was there (I'd said I was going that way before the bird calls distracted me).They had a drum conversation about whether I was stupid enough to wander off into the bush on my own, and did someone need to get a boat into the Senegal river, at which point I showed up & was congratulated on my ability to understand the drums - I didn't confess until the next day that I was just following the noise...

    Several years later, my Wolof much improved, I was at a street dance in Dakar, the Tama player insulted me & it was immediately clear to everyone that I'd understood what he'd 'said' with the drum. I accepted his apology but declined both the offer of the drum to reply in kind, and several marriage proposals, one of my better nights...
    Awesome story, love it!

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Forgot to post this....the free course itself is good but the 'assessments' ain't.

    Music as Biology: What We Like to Hear and Why | Coursera

  17. #77
    Part of a PM conversation continued: This is Penthouse Serenade from a couple of years ago. Basically an étude on using triplets to displace things rhythmically and/or vary phrasing. Nowadays, I mostly do a lot of this stuff with plectrum, but like in this example, I really started doing it with right hand fingers. That's still probably the easiest way to learn to feel it IMO.

    Again, this is pretty old fashioned cheesy stuff, but that's just how BASIC this kind of Billie/Lester "behind" triplet phrasing can be in the beginning. It begins with double stops basically. There's a lot more to what the greats are doing in the end, but learning to hear it/feel it in the BEGINNING comes through a very basic understanding.




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  18. #78
    I understand exactly what Miles is referring to.

    Pat Metheny made a similar comment regarding ' swing' [on a Video ] regarding Guitarists not often sounding like they are 'in it '
    rhythmically but floating along..Metheny also mentions on the Video - ' most white guys can't do it '

    He didn't mean 'they can't do it BECAUSE they are white' just a mathematical observation- you will see IF you watch a bunch of Dancers - a MUCH higher % of African American dancers will land their feet precisely on beat.

    You can hear yourself especially doing complex Rhythms on recordings - on playback ,there is nowhere to hide...

    Swing is one thing, lagging way behind the beat or sounding like a runner with legs of two different lengths is another.
    I call myself an R&B Fusion Guitarist so despite being white lol
    although not quite as tight as George Benson ...I am tighter if I so choose than most Jazz Guitarists..

    Although there is a way to be a little more relaxed and still not lag like Wes was on single lines...but Wes' chording was very tight.

    I think a good way to illuminate what I am trying to say is :[ just occurred to me ]-
    Listen to most Brazilian Guitarists- having ZERO to do with race -
    They MUST be very tight on Rhythm Guitar to even PLAY the Music- no way around it. Nowhere to hide.

    On single lines in Jazz, Funk,Fusion or Urban Jazz etc there is a lot of room for 'artisic interpretation ' on Notes and Time Feel...and the Brazilian Guitarists do wander in time on single lines a bit...but rarely on Rhythm Parts.

    But on Brazilian Pop or Brazilian Jazz the Rhythms really have to be very tight or it sticks out in the mix or ensemble.

    Some' Styles' require a much tighter feel and the Players have it or they get screened out ..
    The finer subdivisions of the Percussionists on certain styles really expose timing slop IMO..having nothing to do with Race.

    Listen to John McLaughlin on Jazz and he's good timing wise ..but listen to him with Shakti...and he's great super tight.
    But I think the Brazilian Musicians wipe out 'Racial Distinctions ' - and transcend the observations I made above about Dancers and Players..and make what I was trying to say more clear.

    I think the time thing is even more obvious on precise Rhythm Guitar parts especially over numerous simultaneous parts ( drummer and percussion etc.).
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-17-2018 at 11:42 AM.

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