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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Assuming I understand this correctly, by "upbeat" you mean the placement of the even-numbered notes in a pattern. So, the metronome's upbeat is the second eighth. Swung eighths gives you the "upbeat" on something like the third note of a triplet. Just want to make sure I've got the nomenclature correct.
    Yes. Check this placement for yourself by slowing, say, Charlie Parker down to half speed and singing the swung ands along with the track. Don't take my word for it, I'm an internet doofus.

    If that's it, the placement dictates what the research (at least, what I read on line) the "swing ratio". That's a way of mathematically describing the placement of the upbeat.
    No it's not. Swing ratio as in the ratio of the long note to the short note is independent. How can this be? Placement of the downbeat.

    And, the research shows that it isn't in a specific place. Rather, it varies by the tempo, the player and the point in the tune. And it isn't just a choice between an eighth and a triplet. They also measured great players with oddball numbers for swing ratio.
    As mentioned before swing ratio and placement are independent. At fast tempos it becomes naturally difficult to articulate swing, so the swing ratio becomes straighter naturally.... (Depending on the player) But you still catch the upbeat and that's what swings.

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  3. #102

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    Basically, the straighter you play your swing, the later you play your down beat.

    Jimmy Cobb is the opposite - pushed beat, heavy swing ratio (when he plays a skip note at all), but everyone still locks into the same upbeat.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Basically, the straighter you play your swing, the later you play your down beat.

    Jimmy Cobb is the opposite - pushed beat, heavy swing ratio (when he plays a skip note at all), but everyone still locks into the same upbeat.
    I guess I am not up to speed on this yet.

    Let me define some terms.

    Metronome on eighth notes in 4/4. These are "straight 8ths". Right on the clicks.

    I always thought that "swung eighths" meant the odd numbered eighths are on the metronome click, while the even numbered eighths are late.

    How late? Often written on sheet music as the third note of an eighth note triplet (first note of this imaginary triplet is one the click, and ties to the second note).

    But, the "swing ratio" research suggests that this varies. It's not always the third note of an imagined triplet, but, rather, varies with tempo, player and tune.

    But, you seem to be saying this this is too simple -- that the odd numbered eighths are no longer right on the click in a swung situation.

    Do I understand you correctly so far?

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Y (Depending on the player) But you still catch the upbeat and that's what swings.
    "Catch the upbeat"?

    I'm not clear on this. The "upbeat" refers to the even numbered hits -- the placement of which varies by tempo among other things.

    So, what is "catching the upbeat"? Where is it?

  6. #105

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  7. #106

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    Miles was Miles, a mixture of love and hate, he loved the three Evans, Gil, Bill and Bill.
    Hum... I think he usually said that some people believed it was binary when the feeling had to be ternary.
    He said that thing about Tutu.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I guess I am not up to speed on this yet.

    Let me define some terms.

    Metronome on eighth notes in 4/4. These are "straight 8ths". Right on the clicks.

    I always thought that "swung eighths" meant the odd numbered eighths are on the metronome click, while the even numbered eighths are late.

    How late? Often written on sheet music as the third note of an eighth note triplet (first note of this imaginary triplet is one the click, and ties to the second note).

    But, the "swing ratio" research suggests that this varies. It's not always the third note of an imagined triplet, but, rather, varies with tempo, player and tune.

    But, you seem to be saying this this is too simple -- that the odd numbered eighths are no longer right on the click in a swung situation.

    Do I understand you correctly so far?
    That’s correct

  9. #108

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    In the McPherson interview, I like the distinction he draws attention to between eros and agape in the blues. In any show I had any input on, I tried to include examples of both. Surreptitiously, of course. The ladies and a random handful of scholars will appreciate the nicety, while the rest can just groove. Let, as they say, sleeping dogs lie.
    Best regards, k

  10. #109

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    Miles’ bass players played ahead of the beat, Ron Carter is a master of that drive . I think white bass players I have encountered are not so much in the habit. They tend to play and think on the beat which is less of an exciting drive. That is what I take from Miles’ comment.
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  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Miles’ bass players played ahead of the beat, Ron Carter is a master of that drive . I think white bass players I have encountered are not so much in the habit. They tend to play and think on the beat which is less of an exciting drive. That is what I take from Miles’ comment.
    Brandi Disterheft plays with a really nice push, but she's a student of Ron's. It was fun playing time (was a dance gig) with her - couldn't be late!

    There's not many pushy bass players out there in London, a couple here and there.

  12. #111

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    I think people (and I say this well aware that my tempo stability is not always shall we say the best) have a difficulty perceiving beat placement and tempo as independent. There can be a push on the beat and it can feel like the music is speeding up - but it isn't.

    As a swing rhythm guitarist, my placement will depend on the band, but a lot of the time I am expected to push - pushing the 2 and 4 is typical for gypsy jazz (as Angelo Debarre puts it if the rhythm guitar doesn't push, you are ****ed) but then in some bands I might sit in the pocket more. It really depends what the drums and bass are doing.

    None of this is an excuse for sloppiness, these sorts of placements should be consistent and under control - but it's not something you will find on a metronome.. Click time can only go so far.

    There's a world of possibilities that you can only explore experientially playing with great musicians.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Brandi Disterheft plays with a really nice push, but she's a student of Ron's. It was fun playing time (was a dance gig) with her - couldn't be late!

    There's not many pushy bass players out there in London, a couple here and there.
    Brandi is a typical NYC bassist. I mean, it's a standard pretty much.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Brandi is a typical NYC bassist. I mean, it's a standard pretty much.
    I would have thought so. But I didn't want to make assumptions on only a few experiences.

    I would say pretty much all the NYC bass players I have played with have had that feel compared to the Brits, (but I particularly noticed it with Brandi for some reason.)

    Why do you think that is?

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I would have thought so. But I didn't want to make assumptions on only a few experiences.

    I would say pretty much all the NYC bass players I have played with have had that feel compared to the Brits, (but I particularly noticed it with Brandi for some reason.)

    Why do you think that is?
    I have to make a disclaimer: I'm talking about bassists who are at least partially connected to trad/Gypsy/swing scene. The ones who only play bebop/straightahead/contemporary I can't say, even though brief encounter with a couple left a bad taste.

    But plenty who can play anything and everything and do it really good with a right push.

    Why... Maybe the influence of Black musicians heritage is very strong here, or maybe the city has that vibe of rushing through and pushing?

    I'm off to my gig with a bass player who plays better solos than myself, and he's only in his 20's!

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I have to make a disclaimer: I'm talking about bassists who are at least partially connected to trad/Gypsy/swing scene.
    That's fair comparison cos that's when I've played with them.

    The ones who only play bebop/straightahead/contemporary I can't say, even though brief encounter with a couple left a bad taste.
    OK - that's interesting. (It makes me laugh that you lump bebop in with contemporary. Do you have any idea how angry that would make some people? :-))

    But plenty who can play anything and everything and do it really good with a right push.

    Why... Maybe the influence of Black musicians heritage is very strong here, or maybe the city has that vibe of rushing through and pushing?

    I'm off to my gig with a bass player who plays better solos than myself, and he's only in his 20's!
    London is a bit more relaxed (ha!) than NYC. I think the main thing here is that there is not a direct connection with the history. Brandi studies with Ron Carter (and I don't believe that to be a particular claim to fame). You can't do that in London, except catch people on tour. For time feel I think you need regular contact.

    In London, you can study with someone technically amazing, and there are some bass players with that time feel. But nothing like the level of immersion in NYC.

    There are some fantastically talented players here, more every year. But I think the music is different in flavour.... And obviously it's such a magnet for talent (London is too, but not so much for 'pure' jazz, I think, pop maybe.)

  17. #116

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    I find myself unable to analyze it. When I listen to a group, I don't hear the push or lag clearly.

    But, when I'm playing, I can feel it quite clearly.

    Here is something I've noticed. I have played with different Brazilian players. All of the players I refer to in this post are musicians that are established pros.

    Some of them have a time feel which they describe as right on the beat and which I feel as a kind of edgy push. At brisk tempo, I can tell I'm behind, but I can't quite feel how to catch up. They may advise me to "lean forward" into the beat, but words don't help much. Played correctly, it's great.

    But, I've played with some other Brazilian musicians who don't have that time feel. With them, my sense of time works as is, although I have noticed that I can do it when playing with them, but it's not easy to lead other groups to that feel. These players are not as far ahead of the beat. It doesn't feel like constantly leaning forward, but it also feels great. This group may reflect an older style, but I'm not sure about that.

    I have heard that, to the Brazilian musician, Americans seem to play too far behind the beat. Some have suggested it's the swing influence. That is, it's too easy to play that second eighth note late.

    For the record, I don't think race has anything to do with it.

  18. #117

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    Well a teacher (great Brazilian percussionist and educator) once told me if Samba doesn’t feel like it’s speeding up, it’s probably dragging.

    That push in the last 16th placement is key to this I think. It’s like the opposite of jazz swing lol (but it ends up being almost a 3rd triplet placement apparently, not that sambistas would think about it like that.)

    Anyway I get told off for swinging my upbeats on the cavaco.... I have to work hard to even get them straight, let alone Brazilian!

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That's fair comparison cos that's when I've played with them.



    OK - that's interesting. (It makes me laugh that you lump bebop in with contemporary. Do you have any idea how angry that would make some people? :-))



    London is a bit more relaxed (ha!) than NYC. I think the main thing here is that there is not a direct connection with the history. Brandi studies with Ron Carter (and I don't believe that to be a particular claim to fame). You can't do that in London, except catch people on tour. For time feel I think you need regular contact.

    In London, you can study with someone technically amazing, and there are some bass players with that time feel. But nothing like the level of immersion in NYC.

    There are some fantastically talented players here, more every year. But I think the music is different in flavour.... And obviously it's such a magnet for talent (London is too, but not so much for 'pure' jazz, I think, pop maybe.)
    I mean, bebop in looser meaning, I shouldve just said straightahead and contemporary. But you know what I mean... Players who think the only jazz worth knowing about started from Bird and co.

    Today after the gig we went to our friend's gig, another excellent bass player who is good at every style. His was a contemporary jazz gig, and he asked me if I wanna sit in. Sure! They had so much push that I almost lost the beat on a tune I called! It took me a bit to adjust to the drummer, who was superb btw.

    So NYC experience, I'd say the whole 'lagging behind the beat' is almost non existent here in serious jazz players.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well a teacher (great Brazilian percussionist and educator) once told me if Samba doesn’t feel like it’s speeding up, it’s probably dragging.

    That push in the last 16th placement is key to this I think. It’s like the opposite of jazz swing lol (but it ends up being almost a 3rd triplet placement apparently, not that sambistas would think about it like that.)

    Anyway I get told off for swinging my upbeats on the cavaco.... I have to work hard to even get them straight, let alone Brazilian!
    My impression is that there's more than one feel that gets used. I know exactly what your teacher meant. I can feel it when I play with players that have that feel. I find it hard to play with them at times - I constantly feel like I'm dragging, possibly for a good reason.

    But, I have played with other Brazilian players who don't tend to play as fast and don't tend to have that aggressive feel. And, the ginga (Brasilian swing) is completely there. You want to dance.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    My impression is that there's more than one feel that gets used. I know exactly what your teacher meant. I can feel it when I play with players that have that feel. I find it hard to play with them at times - I constantly feel like I'm dragging, possibly for a good reason.

    But, I have played with other Brazilian players who don't tend to play as fast and don't tend to have that aggressive feel. And, the ginga (Brasilian swing) is completely there. You want to dance.
    That's why I said samba. Rio samba specifically we were attempting (very badly) to play in a batteria when he said that.

    Obviously Rio samba is pretty fast and physically demanding to play which is why a lot of amateur groups do Samba Reggae which is nice'n'slow :-)

    But yeah, Bossa doesn't feel that way for instance.

    Brazil is obviously a massive a country with a very rich cultural heritage. Jazz musicians can get by with just knowing Bossa and Samba obviously, but there's loads of other nice grooves. In my life I've probably as many hours in a formal environment learning about Brazilian music as jazz (not that that is saying very much), and I feel like I still know just the very basics and can't play it very well even for a gringo lol. I think you have to go for immersion. That is something that IS in fact a bit possible in London, lots of Brazilians around. More great Brazilian musicians than hard swinging NYC style jazz players I'd say.

    Also Cubans, Nigerians, Carribeans and Ghanians.... Ethiopian jazz is pretty well represented here too.... Wherever you can think of that has a great groove tradition is well represented here, and you can go for workshops. It's a bit OT but I think the relative success of UK jazz groups like Ezra collective in the states is down to their flavour which is specifically afrobeat influenced... To my ears, it's kind of standard (literally even second world/groove band is an afrobeat band here), but in the states it's probably more unusual.

    Man I'm getting inspired... I should sign up for some classes on Tres Cubano or something.

  22. #121

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    I thought I'd post this because to me it's a good example of someone playing a swing feel that's very much up on the beat - pretty straight. Charlie does swing some of his upbeats, but that straight against swing thing sounds very hip at this tempo.


  23. #122

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    Re: Brazilian Music ,Brazilian Musicians White ,Black ,Mixed,or Asian ...

    There you go..just listening to the comping
    in Brazilian Music , including the Pop etc.
    and having very little knowledge or experience with it ..there is far less margin for error regarding playing behind the beat etc. because of the Rhythm Guitar styles alone and the percussion ..etc.

    And still there is some room to play solos
    more aggressively or more relaxed but the Rhythms are more defined.

    Another thing is if you have a lot of tuplets in your playing ...you can play them like
    Benson , you can play them like Brecker , you can play them SLIGHTLY more relaxed - further back in time like Jon Kriesberg ..
    But any later than Kriesberg ...they won't line up and will be late.
    I do have direct experience with this.

    Simply -if you record yourself over more defined beats with percussion and more strict harmonic rhythms you will have to adjust slightly-especially on comping.

    For example you may have a range of behind the beat comping on certain types of Jazz..but on a Reggae Track or a Bossa Track ..you will have less wiggle room.

    You have almost no wiggle room on' Spain' when playing the' Head ' for example ....

    Likewise if you Solo on the Reggae version of Giant Steps ...haha

    OK- if you Solo over Reggae the Rhythm Guitar parts will probably force you to adjust a little ...




    To my ears the Bassist starts out intentionally behind the beat on the Intro on Miles version.


    Then here :


    aside from faster tempo on the Intro the Drummer plays a more defined Kick and Snare Pattern then lays out but comes back with it during the Sax Solo then out again but the whole thing is tighter than Miles version.

    And then - here is an even tighter tune with a similar Harmonic Rhythm which forces you into tighter Rhythms when you solo-
    less margin for error , less freedom because of the kick and snare and hi hat patterns.


  24. #123

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    Swing feel =/= straight 16ths funk =/= Brazilian swing

  25. #124

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    Although they are related. I mean people who play great swing don't necessarily have a handle on Brazilian feels or vice versa.

  26. #125

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    Also the focus on this thread has been a bit on soloing, but really Miles could have been talking about the rhythm section. As mentioned above he liked bass players who push.

    Paul Chambers is playing relaxed downbeats on the intro because he has effectively swapped roles to being a horn player. That's where a horn player would sit. It's where Miles sits in his solo. As soon as he swaps roles to being a bass player he pushes, as does Cobb.

  27. #126

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    Interesting .I didn't know that about Brazilian but instinctively noticed Chico Pinheiro's comping reminded me of funk.

    That guy has an amazing sense of time especially comping...really crisp but creative .

    I learned how to program (less repetitive )
    Pro Pop and R&B drum and percussion parts...(including ghost snares and syncopated etc) -

    But I would not have the faintest idea how to program what the Jazz Drummers often do ,( nor would I try - but live percussionists can be really cool on Midi tracks -and you don't have to overquantize and make them so repetitive- that can be really annoying ) Jazz Drummers seem to switch in and out of regular Kick and Snare patterns and the Kick drums are often mixed at low volume.Jazz drummers don't always have a big Kick Drum on the "1".
    Even every two measures for longer patterns ...I need the " 1".
    So when I program my own stuff there will be different kick patterns and irregular syncopated snares but there are always solid on the 1 patterns every two or 3 measures or so at most.


    I sat in years ago with a Jazz Group and locked my Rhythm Guitar to the Bassist ...
    even though it was my tune lol.
    But I couldn't play like I can now...


    I imagine you need super good time to be a Jazz Bassist ...because bassists I assume have to follow the Drummer via hi hats/cymbals sometimes and kick and snare other times-EDIT or be the timekeeper when drummer gets really adventurous- in light of your comment below.

    Although a good drummer even if he drops out the Kick and snare ..there should be some timekeeping going on ..¿

    I can follow Jack DeJohnette even though he is a wild man...lol.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-29-2018 at 11:33 PM.

  28. #127

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    Yeah jazz drumming has its roots in New Orleans parade drumming, which is not a simple repetitive groove but rather open and evolving.

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah jazz drumming has its roots in New Orleans parade drumming, which is not a simple repetitive groove but rather open and evolving.
    Turn the clock back a little more and the roots are in Congo Square.

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah jazz drumming has its roots in New Orleans parade drumming, which is not a simple repetitive groove but rather open and evolving.

    I like open and evolving ...but there ideally would be a strong Kick drum changing patterns but on a lot of Jazz...light on Kick drum...

    Brazilian is from Folk Music -not particularly hard to play...but they seem to have handed down some Rhythmic Styles over a long period ...and there are a lot of variations.

    Venezuela on the Quatro especially has a lot of interesting Rhythms ..

    In order to adapt a new or different 'time feel' you have to live inside of that Music ..
    at least the Beats (not just a Metronome).

    Some 'feels' you may be able to jump right into ..others take longer...it's not a Black or White or White Latino thing...it's ultimately if you can follow and 'fit in' to certain Styles and adjust your Time Feel specifically to 'speak 'and add to that Style.

    There is a point at which you stop 'following' a new Rhythmic Style .. and start to be able to live inside those Rhythms comfortably and 'Pop ' them.

    Sometimes intentionally lagging can make a Beat 'pop' and breathe more .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-14-2018 at 11:36 AM.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    My impression is that there's more than one feel that gets used. I know exactly what your teacher meant. I can feel it when I play with players that have that feel. I find it hard to play with them at times - I constantly feel like I'm dragging, possibly for a good reason.

    But, I have played with other Brazilian players who don't tend to play as fast and don't tend to have that aggressive feel. And, the ginga (Brasilian swing) is completely there. You want to dance.
    If it makes you want to dance and especially the Audience - a good sign.
    Most Jazz Musicians don't use the D word to assess their Groove.

    The 'Test ' in this case is on a Recording does the 'behind the beat' Player still sound 'in time' and 'in sync' with the percussionists just like the 'faster' Player..

    [ 'Faster' means more forward in the measure in this case NOT 2 different tempos , obviously -]

    So you have the more laid back Guitarist literally playing ALL or most of his parts a few milliseconds later ..
    And the more aggressive time feel Guitarist bouncing off the Beat more literally a few milliseconds more forward in the measure.

    IF they both Sync to the Percussion parts and merely lock up slightly differently that's stylistic difference....if one is clearly out of Sync..obviously a different thing.

    Generally the more time references that are on a track ...the tighter you will need to be...

    You can get different ' feels ' by ' syncing'
    To the kick drum ,hi hats, the bass player etc. but the better you Sync the more favorable reaction you will get.
    My experience is more in Recording ...

    Rehearsing complex Rhythms especially harmonic rhythms to really fine tune them
    generally a Metronome is only step one-you need to use the Track or Rhythm section itself [recording or sophisticated simulation] to get something stage ready or studio ready.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-29-2018 at 11:54 PM.

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    Turn the clock back a little more and the roots are in Congo Square.
    Did you guys play over this beat ?

    Anyway- there's a tempo change at some point where they drop out but before that ..you can Solo right along with using Jazz swing...but not behind the beat.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-16-2018 at 07:16 AM.

  33. #132

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    In Miles "So What" the bass leads, not the drummer. It's called the "front pocket." . Miles solos around 100 milliseconds behind the pulse, like singers do, and that's why he sounds so relaxed. Miles synchronizes his "+" with the drummers "+" but not his down beats . This has been scientifically analyzed and documented. You can hear it with your own ears if you know what to listen for. Of course with Transcribe! software it's easier than ever to hear. Carter played ahead of Tony Williams too.
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  34. #133

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    There is nothing time wise that is difficult or unusual on that Track , except Trane's





    Drummer is keeping time on the hats & cymbals ...most snares on 2 and 4 ..

    Bass Player is pretty much right on with syncing to the hats/cymbals and the snares -this is an unusually simple beat ...

    I understand *front pocket but if you listen bassist lines up dead on to most of the Primary Snares and to cymbals/hats.
    Drummer's triplets are laid back slightly.





    If you know how long 100 milliseconds is -- Miles is NOT 100 milliseconds late -he's playing it like a Ballad kind of.

    You will notice that Cannonball Adderly never gets fully in Sync with the track and is slightly off time often compared to the drums , keys,bass , compared to Trane ..also seems like Adderly is mixed too high...not his best take I'm sure.

    The Keyboard Player's timing is probably the most perfect of everyone and the Drummer.





    Those of you who are time sensitive can probably hear where Brecker got his Tuplets feel ...when Trane gets aggressive here ..but he doesn't push the beat much ..he reminds me of Brecker....and this is a 'mood piece' ..pushing the beat hard would sound out of place .The drummer's triplets and accents are laid back in character.
    Also you hear the Bassist falling right into rhythmic character when he settles in on the walking parts.

    Bassist plays the Head slightly differently time wise each time.
    This may have been what the Players thought was an early run through but the 'red light' was on ...sounds like they did not have much rehearsal time ...

    So in Guitar vocabulary ...Miles time here would be kinda like early Metheny in slur mode ..
    maybe 10 milliseconds late at most.

    Not 100 ...





    To push the beat like Benson sometimes does would not fit the mood of the piece .
    Benson would back off slightly to fit this rhythm section as would Brecker.



    Miles is not 100 milliseconds behind the beat....never listen to Scientists ..they probably meant to write 10 milliseconds or you did.

    I don't have a stopwatch -that's not how I know...lol.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-16-2018 at 02:48 PM.

  35. #134

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    100 milliseconds is accurate.

    When bass and drums line up together, then it sounds “white “ or European. Africans and African American jazz musicians, such as the Miles Davis groups, had a feel thing for front pocket, middle, and back pocket. Much of that has been lost now. European (white) culture Did not have the same rhythmic culture. Musicologist first noticed This when the slaves were being brought to the Americas from Africa. They noticed the slaves would sing behind the beat of the oars and were amazed by it. It was quite different from how their Europeans approached time.
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  36. #135

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    If you are supposed to come in on the 1 and you are 100 milliseconds late ...every time ...you are fired.

    If you are supposed to come in on the 'and' of 2 and you are always 100 milliseconds late ...you are fired.

    If you play a Reggae Rhythm 100 milliseconds late it will be out of sync with the track or band as will just about every other Rhythm and you are fired.

    An orchestral soloist can play late to an extent but 100 milliseconds they would never land on a down beat ...or rarely if it was a very long solo just by chance.

    If you know how to swing and you are 100 milliseconds late...it won't swing.

    IF you get a digital delay and set it to 100 milliseconds and listen to the delayed signal only while you solo to a track it will be totally out of sync unless you sync the delayed signal to the tempo /accent but that is a different thing and to get a delay that precise or a looped sample is a bit of work but demonstrates my point ....

    You can play intentionally late and make it sound good on some tunes and tracks.

    But if you set the digital delay 100 milliseconds late and you play on beat - the delayed signal will not sound like Miles Davis...this should be obvious to you.

    George Benson is the most Urban ('blackest') sounding Guitarist in the History of Jazz and he plays tighter to the Beat than any other Jazz Guitarist.


    You seem to have a fragmented arm's length (but never been there never done it ) view and are Conflating,Confusing Quantized Music [one thing ] with Classical Time Feel [ another thing ] with African American Time feel [ another thing ]...which by the way only a very small % of Jazz has much African American feel .

    Knowing about American Black Music is not the same as being able to play it /write it /produce it.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-17-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  37. #136

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    None of that is relevant to the swing of Miles Davis rhythms sections... maybe you prove Miles point... some white boys don't comprehend his band's swing

    Jazz musicians have a joke that goes "How late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "About half a beat behind the drummer." That joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it. Did Miles Davis play the same swing ratio as his drummers? No, the fact is that his drummers regularly played larger swing ratios than Miles would . The difference helps to explain why a soloist like Miles Davis can seem to be so laid back on a particularly fast number. When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, Davis hangs back slightly. The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo. This tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. In the introduction to the 1867 book Slave Songs of the United States Charles Ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "One noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
    If you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful. The funny thing is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. They synchronize on the short eighth note with their drummer. This also sheds light on why the famous even eighths played behind the beat can sound so swinging, see Brad Mehldau for a great example of this. That off-the-beat synchronization of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. Effectively the musicians synchronize their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. When the off-the-beat notes are synchronized, you often don't realize the soloist is lagging.
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-18-2018 at 01:18 AM.

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    None of that is relevant to the swing of Miles Davis rhythms sections... You prove Miles point... white boys don't comprehend his band's swing.
    Maybe he's not white, how do you know? He says ''guys like George Benson and me play on top of the beat" etc, so who knows!

  39. #138

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    The master of playing behind the beat in jazz:

    Epiphone Casino Coupe (Antiquity P90s) Telecaster (Vintage Stack neck, Fender ‘62 bridge) Stratocaster (3X Little '59 ). Monoprice Chinese "Champ" amp clone (Weber alnico 8", Genalex Gold Lion tubes)

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Maybe he's not white, how do you know? He says ''guys like George Benson and me play on top of the beat" etc, so who knows!
    Point taken, I was out of line.

    Great players like Oscar Peterson are also very on top of the beat. Parker and Bud Powell used to mock Oscar for that and his overuse of the blues scale. The pocket (where they in relation to the beat) of an Oscar Peterson compared to a Miles Davis, Dexter Gordon, or Erroll Garner are pretty wide apart.

    Anyways, Miles was talking about lagging rhythm sections, IE dragging bass players in particular and drummers.

    Enough.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, Davis hangs back slightly. The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo.
    did you clock that yourself? 100ms is almost a sixteenth note at medium tempo.

    and while i'm the biggest errol garner fan he's not only playing behind the beat but also consistently slowing down significantly.

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    None of that is relevant to the swing of Miles Davis rhythms sections... maybe you prove Miles point... some white boys don't comprehend his band's swing

    Jazz musicians have a joke that goes "How late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "About half a beat behind the drummer." That joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it. Did Miles Davis play the same swing ratio as his drummers? No, the fact is that his drummers regularly played larger swing ratios than Miles would . The difference helps to explain why a soloist like Miles Davis can seem to be so laid back on a particularly fast number. When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, Davis hangs back slightly. The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo. This tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. In the introduction to the 1867 book Slave Songs of the United States Charles Ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "One noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said.
    If you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful. The funny thing is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. They synchronize on the short eighth note with their drummer. This also sheds light on why the famous even eighths played behind the beat can sound so swinging, see Brad Mehldau for a great example of this. That off-the-beat synchronization of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. Effectively the musicians synchronize their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. When the off-the-beat notes are synchronized, you often don't realize the soloist is lagging.
    It’s funny how people who do this naturally already have real trouble coming to terms with this as a concept. It’s now something I can absolutely *hear* - I don’t need to look at waveforms etc any more.

    Perhaps it doesn’t matter - I played this way before I learned what I was doing - but as a concept being able to tell students to feel the upbeats, straighten out their eights and not expect to synchronise with the 2 and 4 click when playing swing feel can help them develop a more mature soloing swing feel.

    I feel it helped me get a bit more precise in what I am doing.

    Swing feel is a complex subject and this is not the only aspect to it, but it’s quite a big deal imo.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    did you clock that yourself? 100ms is almost a sixteenth note at medium tempo.

    and while i'm the biggest errol garner fan he's not only playing behind the beat but also consistently slowing down significantly.
    The exact amount will be for completely straight eights locking into a 3rd triplet upbeat will be 1/6 of a beat or 16th triplet behind the beat

    (In practice for most players it’s less, because they would have more of an inequality in their eights)
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-18-2018 at 08:09 AM.

  44. #143

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    If the bass and or drums are pushing that amount would be increased if you were taking it from their pulse

  45. #144

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    There’s a couple more things that spring to mind:

    The faster the music gets the less this stuff matters at 220+ to my ears the swing thing becomes more of a subtle nuance. You can play pretty straight up on the beat ala the Charlie Christian recording above and it works great.

    OTOH many more contemporary players avoid medium tempo 8ths favouring double time or even triplets. I don’t think players are always taught how to make swing 8ths sound good at medium tempo.

    Finally medium tempos are not as common in professional jazz as they used to be - this is because jazz is now a listening music not a dance music.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Although they are related. I mean people who play great swing don't necessarily have a handle on Brazilian feels or vice versa.
    I write by feel ..but most of the Rhythm Parts on Guitar which I do ...on R&B Fusion ( which is actually closer to Jazz than much of the Fusion of the 70s) are the pick is doing one thing while the middle voices might be plucked ..but it's groove locked....or strummed and plucked etc. More like a piano or one hand piano ...lol.

    But to play or notate my Rhythms - you would count in 16ths .

    Some will be tricky....lol.

    Sometimes when you take fancy Rhythm Guitar parts into production- you realize that you don't need as many accents ,syncopations etc. because of the hats and percussion .

    That's why I have a large vocab of big 5 and 6 note piano voicings on Guitar...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-19-2018 at 12:42 PM.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I write by feel ..but most of the Rhythm Parts on Guitar which I do ...on R&B Fusion ( which is actually closer to Jazz than much of the Fusion of the 70s) are the pick is doing one thing while the middle voices might be plucked ..but it's groove locked....or strummed and plucked etc. More like a piano or one hand piano ...lol.

    But to play or notate my Rhythms - you would count in 16ths .

    Some will be tricky....lol.

    Sometimes when you take fancy Rhythm Guitar parts into production- you realize that you don't need as many accents ,syncopations etc. because of the hats and percussion .

    That's why I have a large vocab of big 5 and 6 note piano voicings on Guitar...
    What I have noticed is that some terrific Brazilian rhythm players, on piano or guitar, play a lot of notes -- very busy comping. Other players, equally propulsive, play much more sparsely. I have found it difficult to make the busy version work -- the concept isn't necessarily difficult, but executing it requires great feel and great precision -- how and when you hit which chord and when you release it. It often seems like something you have to get when you're young, to hear it, like speaking a language without an accent.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    What I have noticed is that some terrific Brazilian rhythm players, on piano or guitar, play a lot of notes -- very busy comping. Other players, equally propulsive, play much more sparsely. I have found it difficult to make the busy version work -- the concept isn't necessarily difficult, but executing it requires great feel and great precision -- how and when you hit which chord and when you release it. It often seems like something you have to get when you're young, to hear it, like speaking a language without an accent.
    Do you play any brazilian percussion?

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    I write by feel ..but most of the Rhythm Parts on Guitar which I do ...on R&B Fusion ( which is actually closer to Jazz than much of the Fusion of the 70s) are the pick is doing one thing while the middle voices might be plucked ..but it's groove locked....or strummed and plucked etc. More like a piano or one hand piano ...lol.

    But to play or notate my Rhythms - you would count in 16ths .

    Some will be tricky....lol.

    Sometimes when you take fancy Rhythm Guitar parts into production- you realize that you don't need as many accents ,syncopations etc. because of the hats and percussion .

    That's why I have a large vocab of big 5 and 6 note piano voicings on Guitar...
    I kind of feel we are talking at cross purposes here - a lot of the thread has focussed on swing feel, while I get the feeling most of your stuff is straight 8s/16ths.

    But having said that, what type of music was Miles playing in the 80s? It wasn't flipping Kind of Blue...

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I kind of feel we are talking at cross purposes here - a lot of the thread has focussed on swing feel, while I get the feeling most of your stuff is straight flipping Kind of Blue...
    My swing feel is right in between Norman Brown and Benson..

    You might not hear the difference ...


    You are at cross purposes with it because how could I have super tight time ?




    You are nitpicking ...I said you would need to count some of my R&B Rhythm Guitar

    parts in 16ths because they are like a piano not likeJazz Guitarists doing horn stabs .

    For example ...I could probably take something very Anglo/ Country like Chet Atkins
    style Travis Picking and alter the Rhythm and time to fit hard swing ...hard swing is what Benson/Norman Brown a little less...
    than GB ...the guy Dan Smith is a little less than Benson...he's extremely good just floats a bit more on the fast tempos.

    As I explained to you before hard swing fits contempo R&B Latin, Reggaeton ,Blues etc...if you play behind the beat like some of the more Anglo Playing Jazzers it will not Sync properly.
    It will become somewhat Rubato ...floating as the late swinger falls behind the Beat.

    The effect that Miles was talking about is more severe if part of a Rhythm Track- the Guitarist will either just sound sloppy
    or if it's a staccato rhythm it will be out of SYNC.

    When you hear yourself played back on Studio Monitors there is none of this verbal/text stuff.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-29-2018 at 10:11 AM.

  51. #150

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