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The first triplet of measure 10 is an F, G, Eb played against a Em7b5 to A7. That lick is neither in the key of Dm or played against an A7 altered.
Can somebody tell me what theory there is behind that lick (if any)? Is there a substitution involved? Thanks.
Is it an Eb7 substitution?Last edited by jobabrinks; 05-03-2018 at 06:11 PM.
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05-03-2018 05:20 PM
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Yeah it’s an interesting one.
Tbh I think Parker has to be ignoring the Em7b5 here. So yeah, I think Eb7 here, tritone for A7
Also melodically, this line puts in mind of the whole tone scale.
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Ok the other hand, I notice that the whole of 9-12 is kind of constructed on these pitches
Db Eb F G A Bb
(One passing tone aside)
Which could be taken to be basically Eb Lydian dominant/A altered/Bb melodic minor/whatever.
It’s not the analysis I would normally take, but it’s interesting to think about.
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Also that melodic motif
G Bb A Bb A
Reoccurs three times in A2....
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dom#5 is pretty cool. Actually very old school....
Originally Posted by djg
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Uh, say what? Originally Posted by djg
Lol, I'm a bit weak on theory I don't know what you mean here by guidelines.
I do get the part that the whole tone scale is played over an A augmented. That explanation makes sense. Thanks fellas.
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It's what Bruce Foreman referred to as a 'moving fifth line' - I've heard this term form a few different people...
It's in the latest Guitar Wank podcast....
In his example he talks about using it on There Will Never Be Another You. The changes of the first 4 bars of this tune are the same (albeit a tone lower)
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For Google/research purposes, see "CESH" or "chromatic embellishment of static harmony", as well. "jazz cliché" is related. The "static" part can then be extrapolated to its own harmony, kind of disguising the original relationship to the chromatic line.
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One way to look at this is that he changes to the Em7b5 two beats early and then plays on A7b5#5 for the entire second bar.
Anticipating the next chord in this way is a common device, although not always by two beats.
It can make it tricky to analyze the note-against-chord situation, but the ear tends to accept the anticipation.
Similar argument applies to changing the chord late.
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I see it a whole lot more simply than any of the above. Confirmation is a re-harmonized blues (with a bridge) in F. F, G, and Eb are all notes in the F blues scale.
John
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Playing the ii is for chumps anyway.
(Well unless you want to of course.)
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Interesting to see these different takes on it, mine is similar but different.
It's a perfectly logical and conventional thing to play as we are leading to the vi. It's just the V7 instead of the ii V. It's super common.
For bird and many others a ii V in one bar is interchangeable with V7 for that whole bar...a lot of 'substitutions' are possible but really a ii V is just a common way to say 'we're going HERE now' - the V7 on its own can serve that purposes, and there's a lot of elasticity with bar lines regarding ii V and iii VI ii V and such, how long each chord lasts, because with this kind of stuff it's much more about movement to rather than playing over.
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I suppose the question has more about the melody notes than the global harmony.
An interesting question for me is how much it is legitimate to mate the melody note choices with the chords.
Sometimes I think it’s good to look at things in a purely melodic way, just for a bit of a change.
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BUT THEN YOU CAN JUSTIFY ANYTHING AND THE SKY WILL FALL Originally Posted by christianm77
But seriously, I agree with you say here, but in Bird's case I think the playing is extremely harmonic and all the choices have a harmonic intention, it's useful to look at it through that lense. For other players, not always as true.
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Hahahahahahahahahaha Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Musical Anarchy!
Depends what you mean by harmonic. Birds lines obviously have their own harmonic space, arpeggiated triads and chords, line cliches and interval leaps and so on that suggest an implied chord progression.But seriously, I agree with you say here, but in Bird's case I think the playing is extremely harmonic and all the choices have a harmonic intention, it's useful to look at it through that lense. For other players, not always as true.
But the extent to which this movement is mapped to the changes of the tune?
I think Bird is a little more harmonic in this way than Lester Young but much less harmonic than most modern jazz guitarists.
Why do I say this? Well I’m influenced by Barry Harris which is all about broad strokes harmony developed into various forms of embellishment in lines (which sounds a bit vague but it’s hard to sum up) on the other hand, there’s this:
‘Quiet as it’s kept, Bird’s real innovation was melody’ Dizzy
Melody and harmony are not easy to separate, obviously. But iirc Dizzy regarded his playing as more harmonic? (Correct me if I’ve got this backward.)
In Birds music, mapping the harmonic space of the solo too closely to the changes of the tune is,IMO, a mistake. A schoolboy error! There are points of congruence, but there are different roundabout ways of getting from a to b. ‘Invisible paths’ as Steve Coleman has called them.
I blame the real book, which encourages this type of thinking. ‘The melody has a Eb on the C7, so that chord is C7#9 and the C7 altered scale is implied by this scale’ - that type of thinking.
Well maybe the musician was just playing a melody line diatonic to Eb and wasn’t too worried about nailing that VI7 chord at that moment.
Anyway, somewhat extreme of a case. But you see it all the time. He same thing here would be to try and see that line in bar 10 in relation to the Em7b5. Of course here it really doesn’t work at all so most people have clocked it’s ignored.
As Ethan Iverson muses - when did musicians start using chord charts to learn tunes?
Guitarists think mostly about harmony. I think it’s good to think about other things as well.
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Actually Bird for me is the definition of musical anarchy - in a good way!
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I agree. There's a reason I asked about that particular measure. The rest of the head lines up pretty well with the harmonic background. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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You could always tidy it up. Originally Posted by jobabrinks
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I think most of Bird's lines have a relatively simple harmonic explanation Originally Posted by christianm77
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Almost certainly. Same thing in bar 42, Eb over A7. Originally Posted by jobabrinks
These poor players, whacking along and every little note they play subject to scrutiny and close analysis. Rather them than me, I can tell you.
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I believe it's the same note in the head in multiple different performances Originally Posted by ragman1
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You were a bit quick! I edited (before I saw your post). The Eb is repeated in subsequent bars so it's unlikely to be a mistake. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I take it all back about messing it up
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But let's not think he was incapable of error :-)
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Haha. If Bird knew some crappy amateur bedroom guitarist was breaking down his licks, he'd probably be rolling over in his grave. Originally Posted by ragman1
Honesty, I'm pretty sure every recorded note Bird ever played has been broken down into bits and pieces.
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Well it’s Eb7 innit. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Not all of Birds note choices have an immediately obvious explanation - many of them do.
But usually the harmony is straightforward unto itself. The relationship to the backing is sometimes less obvious.
OTOH harmony of itself tells you relatively little about what makes Birds music hip imo
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