Dimished Chords and the Blues

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 06:17 AM

Hi Guys,

Here is a little piece on my Blog about dimished chords and their relationship with the Blues
Those are just my thoughts based on what I heard people play over certain passages of those tunes.

I don´t know if this is super common knowledge and therefore a total waste of time for everyone so please let me know your thoughts and if you agree/disagre on the matter.

Hope you enjoy reading it

Kind Regards
Matt

Jazz Guitar / Guitar Teaching

**ragman1** · 05-03-2018, 07:03 AM

It's common knowledge to some extent. Depends who you talk to.

It's well known (I think) that a diminished sound is best to connect two dom7 chords in a standard blues. If you put in a connecting line at all.

It's fairly well known (I think) that not all diminished chords perform the same function. For example, F - F#o - Gm7 - C7 isn't the same as F - Abo - Gm7 - C7. The F#o can be seen as a D7b9 (to Gm) but the Abo can't be. In fact, it's hard to say what its function is.

But the blues scale will take care of most situations like that unless you want something more sophisticated.

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 07:11 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the time to read!

And thanks for the comment.

Your second example is exactly what I was trying to talk about.
In the first F - f#dim- Gm7 the diminished chord is exaxtly like you said basically a D7b9 and that is very common knowloedge indeed.

Your second then is exactly my point. The Abdim is through its diminished relationship the same chord as Fdim. Meaning "one dimished".
Which is fairly common in old standards.
The voice leading from F to Fdim / or F to Abdim therefore is similar as the one from F to Fmin or therfore F to Bb7 (one to four)
which then connects it to a blues movement and makes the "F minor blues scale sound" work over this

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 07:24 AM

Ok, I think this is flipping genius but no one here seems to like it, but I’ll give it a go. It’s a Barry Harris concept.

A dim chord is related to a dominant chord. Most players know this.

C7

CEGBb
Raise c to C#

C#EGBb

Get C#o7

Ok most people know that. What they might not have tried is this:

Now do it with a scale
C D E F G A Bb

What do you get? A scale you can run on C#o7
C# D E F G A Bb

This scale (and you can work out what it’s called if you want, but I wanted to present this method of constructing it) is to my ears the most traditional and inside way of playing a dim7 chord.

It works very elegantly on progressions like the ones you identified in your blog.

**ragman1** · 05-03-2018, 07:49 AM

Matty91 -

Here's a short demo on F - F#o - Gm - C7 and F - Abo - Gm - C7. Three different ways of playing over both dim chords.

1) Just arpeggiating or suggesting them.

2) Using F blues over both (and letting it run into the other chords a little).

3) Treating the dim chords as the 7th degree chord of their respective harmonic minor scales (half-step above the root of the dim) - G harm for F#o and A harm for Abo.

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ok, I think this is flipping genius but no one here seems to like it, but I’ll give it a go. It’s a Barry Harris concept.

A dim chord is related to a dominant chord. Most players know this.

C7

CEGBb
Raise c to C#

C#EGBb

Get C#o7

Ok most people know that. What they might not have tried is this:

Now do it with a scale
C D E F G A Bb

What do you get? A scale you can run on C#o7
C# D E F G A Bb

This scale (and you can work out what it’s called if you want, but I wanted to present this method of constructing it) is to my ears the most traditional and inside way of playing a dim7 chord.

It works very elegantly on progressions like the ones you identified in your blog.

Hey Christian,

I know about that approach! And really like it as well.Barry Harris is great!

The C# D E F G A Bb scale was introduced as starting from F as F harmonic Major.
For my liking Harmonic Major is the most "inside" way of playing over diminished chords in the context of functional harmony!

There is many ways! And they are all totally legit. I just stumbled over the connection to the Blues as one more option and thought its worth investigating

Cheers

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Matty91 -

Here's a short demo on F - F#o - Gm - C7 and F - Abo - Gm - C7. Three different ways of playing over both dim chords.

1) Just arpeggiating or suggesting them.

2) Using F blues over both (and letting it run into the other chords a little).

3) Treating the dim chords as the 7th degree chord of their respective harmonic minor scales (half-step above the root of the dim) - G harm for F#o and A harm for Abo.

Lovely Examples and playing!

There is many ways of playing over those changes. Just for me the connection of the 1diminished chord to the blues was somewhat new to myself!

Cheers

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 08:34 AM

F harmonic major is

F G A Bb C Db E

The scale I wrote out is a mode D harmonic minor

Not sure if I grasp the connection

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

F harmonic major is

F G A Bb C Db E

The scale I wrote out is a mode D harmonic minor

Not sure if I grasp the connection

Oh I think I see it you can misspell Db as C#.

The two scales are interlinked. Mine has a D as well. And of course both scales belong to F maj6-dim

But the Bh technique for playing the scale by raising the c. Harmonic major is not a concept I use at all, and I think BH would give you a funny look if you mentioned it.

But it’s not far away.

Personally I’m not fond of the harmonic major sound as a scale. I can’t really hear it I think.

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Oh I think I see it you can misspell Db as C#.

The two scales are interlinked. Mine has a D as well. And of course both scales belong to F maj6-dim

But the Bh technique for playing the scale by raising the c. Harmonic major is not a concept I use at all, and I think BH would give you a funny look if you mentioned it.

But it’s not far away.

Personally I’m not fond of the harmonic major sound as a scale. I can’t really hear it I think.

Yes I think they are very similar as a sound and as you state belong to the same source

Sorry I just jumped to a conclusion there that you ment Harmonic Major as well.

Im still not 100% used myself to the Harmoninc Major concept. but my old teacher showed me lots of transcribed examples from example early Ellington Tunes where they use this sound over Dim chords.

I can imagine BH giving me a funny look for lots of things I do

cheers
man

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 09:26 AM

Ha he is a master of the form

The real advantage of the approach i describe to me is that you modify a scale you know well rather than needing to fit some new scale to the changes, and even that scale is pretty well known by most musicians.

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 09:28 AM

Could you give some of the Duke Ellington example?

**ragman1** · 05-03-2018, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by matty91

There is many ways of playing over those changes.

Over those different kinds of diminished chords? Can you tell me some? Always willing to learn

**ragman1** · 05-03-2018, 10:18 AM

Incidentally (if we go into to C major), raising the C to C# and lowering B to Bb gives a mode of D harmonic minor, which was what I said.

Also the issue of the second diminished, which in C would be Ebo, was not answered.

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 10:34 AM

Yeah the biiio7. That’s a tricky one.

I have only one example from Barry which is Indiana/Donna Lee in the first DVD set.

Here as the scale outline in C Major he (well the dvd) has:

D# E F# G A B C

So it appears on the face of it the same thing. Think D7 raise D to D#.

Anyways this isn’t about the scale choice so much as the way it’s derived. I knew about the use of harmonic minor on dim thing for years from transcribing before properly checking out Barry’s approach. But Barry’s way of framing it is interesting.

Probably seems a bit weird at first, but give it a try. Personally I find it more flexible, and good for adapting existing material.

**ragman1** · 05-03-2018, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Think D7 raise D to D#

But that's the point. The first can be an A7b9 (to Dm). But the second one isn't a D7. Doesn't make sense. Nor an Ab7 or B7.

I suppose there's an outside chance it could be considered as a b9 sub for F7, the sub dom of C. Either that or it's just a passing chord. And it'll take, apart from a diminished line, the E harmonic over it. If it works, why fight it?

I knew about the use of harmonic minor on dim thing for years from transcribing before properly checking out Barry’s approach. But Barry’s way of framing it is interesting.

Oh, well, let's call the same thing by a different name just to confuse people and seem innovative. Not for me. Old wine in new bottles, what?

Probably seems a bit weird at first

The notes aren't weird, they work. I don't think I'm interested in semantics much. Keep it simple, keep it sweet

**joe2758** · 05-03-2018, 03:23 PM

Christian,
Can the dominant scale with a raised note work over the dimished chord with any of the related dominant scales?

G-Bb-Db-E

Play Gb dom with a G, A with a Bb, C with a Db, Eb with an E

(fuck enharmonics)

over that G dim chord?

Or do you have a way of picking which dom scale to use?

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ha he is a master of the form

The real advantage of the approach i describe to me is that you modify a scale you know well rather than needing to fit some new scale to the changes, and even that scale is pretty well known by most musicians.

Thats true, but couldnt be the same thing said about harmonic major ? F harmonic Major (F G A Bb C Db E) is only one note away from F major as well. Of course the thought process is somwhat more difficult since F harmonic major is not intendet for Fdim but for example for Bbdim and all its relatives.
Im sure I have the Ellington transcription he cited somewhere, just have to find it! I think one was from the Money Jungle record and one way older from Big Band times. But ill have a look !

**matty91** · 05-03-2018, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Over those different kinds of diminished chords? Can you tell me some? Always willing to learn

Well, there is the ones that you mentioned

Then there is the harmonic major concept. Im just about getting a grasp on it in terms of hearing it.
But the cliff notes would be.

- The one (tonic) diminsihed chord as used in the old versions of Stella / Instead of the min2/5 there used to be an Dbdim as the first chord which is the same as Bbdim -> tonic

In this concept in the Key of C = Cdim you would use G harmonic Major from the C ( C D D# F# G A B)

- the bII dim chord which most of the time has the Dominant b9 function as you said. in C that would be C#dim
usually seen as A7b9 . So the harmonic minor approach obviolsy works but also F harmonic major from C# ( C# E F G A Bb C )

- lastly the IIdim or often you see at as the dim from the maj7 of the Key like in "How Insensetive" Dm to C#dim
In C it would be Bdim or all its relatives. C Harmonic Major starting from B this time gives you ( B C D E F G G# B)

This is only one concept I was taught in college. And not everyone likes this sound world which is totally fine

but its just one more approach.
Also there is the whole thing off getting into triad pairs of the actual diminished scale like you can hear with some Herbie stuff.
And then theres all the options I dont know

This is by no means set in stone or should be seen as the best way possible. Just since you asked, this is what Im working on in regards to dim especially that II dim one is a tricky one.

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Christian,
Can the dominant scale with a raised note work over the dimished chord with any of the related dominant scales?

G-Bb-Db-E

Play Gb dom with a G, A with a Bb, C with a Db, Eb with an E

(fuck enharmonics)

over that G dim chord?

Or do you have a way of picking which dom scale to use?

Those are bloody good questions.

I do remember liking the sound of III harmonic minor on say IIIm bIIIo7 before I got into Barry... So my ears were telling me that was a thing.

But for #IVo7 (the same thing enharmonically) going to I, we would normally use V harmonic minor (effectively). I'm in two minds as to how interchangeable the sounds are.

The same for the other dim brothers and sisters. In theory they are all up for grabs. But - III and V harmonic minor or a lot more diatonic than bVII or bII harmonic minor, perhaps?

**christianm77** · 05-03-2018, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by matty91

Thats true, but couldnt be the same thing said about harmonic major ? F harmonic Major (F G A Bb C Db E) is only one note away from F major as well. Of course the thought process is somwhat more difficult since F harmonic major is not intendet for Fdim but for example for Bbdim and all its relatives.
Im sure I have the Ellington transcription he cited somewhere, just have to find it! I think one was from the Money Jungle record and one way older from Big Band times. But ill have a look !

Yeah, I suppose you could say that. But Barry students don't spend a huge amount of time practicing lines on major chords/scales, so are less interested in these options as I understand it...

Barry Harris line building is heavily focussed - at least early on - on dominant. Let the dominant dominate...

And if we do use that alteration, it is understood to originate from the major 6-dim. I mean use that alteration all the time really, I just never think of it as Harmonic Major.

**joe2758** · 05-03-2018, 08:15 PM

I made up my mind that they're interchangeable, so you have my permission to use those at your next gig

**christianm77** · 05-04-2018, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by joe2758

I made up my mind that they're interchangeable, so you have my permission to use those at your next gig

Can I have that in an official document?

**joe2758** · 05-04-2018, 10:01 AM

lol

*Christian: plays garbage at the gig and gets called out. Then he pulls out a scroll that says why he’s allowed to

but seriously im going to check that out, my guess is it will work.