Jazz Soloing is Half Time 16th Notes not eighth Notes

[Robertkoa]

"We are sorry if this' Error' has caused any confusion or Technical Problems ".

Lol. Unfortunately this quote is from me as
Robert K Scorpio .

But it is far more true than not IMO.

IF you can Swing or even better use different types of Swing - you may think or teach ' The Basic Beat Unit of Jazz is 8th Notes ' or whatever

BUT what you are actually DOING is playing Half Time 16ths at Tempo and 16ths when you "doubletime it ".

IMO ....counting 8th Notes IF you are playing or learning to play ' Jazz ' or certain types of ' Fusion' will lead to the destruction of modern civilization.

OK - maybe not THAT bad but really - teaching a 'Student' or an ' Advanced Student ' OR IF you are working on your ' Time ' do not EVER count 8th Notes is my recommendation .

Count 16ths in Half Time [1 -a- and -a] etc.

Disclaimer : I did NOT adapt/ adopt ' Swing' by counting I could hear and feel it and just forced my hands to do it ....but it seems very very natural now and sounds so.(pro ) .

But in shifting from 16ths [ Doubletime ] to
' Tempo ' [ Actually Halftime 16ths - FORMERLY called Swinging 8th Notes ] and sometimes 32nds-

I noticed that possibly the biggest error in Jazz is
Soloing in 8th Notes - people who swing extremely well do NOT play ' Swinging ' 8th Notes when they Solo.


The biggest error in 'Jazz Theory ' IMO.

I could be wrong on this - I am very open minded to that ....the chance might be .00047% Lol.

However - will this actually help anyone teach or improve their ' Swing ' ?

On this I am properly humble - because I don't know nor do I teach ( and am qualified to teach Technique - but NOT ' Music ' ) but I think it might help .

Or maybe the really hip Instructors already teach the Student to count 16ths and then drop into halftime 16ths ?

Nonetheless- I have to call that ' error' IF it really IS an ' Axiom' or' Foundation ' of Jazz ' Time '.
In Rhythm Guitar - GJ and other Styles of Rhythm Guitar - yes it will work - eight notes of course.

Strictly talking about Soloing .


I could go into more detail about it but not needed .
Never play 8th Notes when Soloing Jazz or want a 'Jazz Feel 'unless you want a different ' feel' like Classical etc. Play halftime 16th Notes .

" We are horrified that someone who has not even posted any Music would be so pompous and cocky and sarcastic ."

Yeah - I get that -I am horrified too .

[christianm77]

Quite right.

Makes more sense when you realise the Americans insist on writing Bossa tunes the same.

[Robertkoa]

Do you think I will be able to differentiate ( I can emulate/ copy but barely notate Rhythms ) between two subtle Bossa Variations and other Latin Styles to see what makes them tick )-

By Counting 16ths Halftime to see and Notate the Accents ( like Drum notation ) ?

I love how the Brazilian Guitarists sound great just comping for a Singer with only Guitar OR ensemble ..
Chico Pinheiro is a great Rhythm Player..as are so many from Brazil .

Funny ...here in Miami ..almost ALL the Latinos non musicians - can instantly tell you if a Salsa or Meringue , Bossa ,or Reggaeton Beat is playing.

I think a deeper more precise understanding ( basic reading skills to you )of these will enable me to ' Fuse ' them into other things as well as understand some of my own Rhythms better.

Seems like 16ths gives finer detail especially if you can slow down the Groove in your mind right ?

So IF you are cataloging Bossa Rhythms and taking Rhythmic Dictation or Notating for Students - do you use 16ths ?

Thanks in advance.

[bako]

In Brazil, songs are generally notated in 2/4 with 16th's.
In the US, the same songs mostly appear written in Cut Time with 8th's.

Funny ...here in Miami ..almost ALL the Latinos non musicians - can instantly tell you if a Salsa or Meringue , Bossa ,or Reggaeton Beat is playing.

This is something relatively easy to tell when you have put in the time listening, playing or dancing to the different rhythms.

It is interesting to note the subtle and not so subtle differences say in 6/8 and 3/4 hybrid rhythms from places like
Mexico, Central America, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Venezuela, Paraguay, Argentina, Andean region countries, Afro-Peruvian musics, etc. The instrumentation will often reveal the source rhythm/country. There are times when some of the figures are the same or similar but the inflection, articulation, behind/ahead or square on the beat or un-nameable cultural markers create a difference.

[rpjazzguitar]

The difference between notating the same thing as eighths vs sixteenths I guess is one of feel.

DA da da da vs. Da da Da da.

Brazilians usually notate in 2/4, although I have seen exceptions in Brazilians' own handwriting.

Bossa and Samba are often felt something like Da da da da DAH da da da. Some emphasis on the 1, but much more on the two.

You can get an approximation of the this feel by having the drummer play sixteenths on the hihat and a kick drum hit on two. He can then add a two bar tamborim pattern on the snare -- and you'll have the basic groove. Anything an American who hasn't studied the Brazilian way adds to that -- is likely to screw things up.

The bassist plays the big TWO, a grace note preceding it and maybe a quieter note on ONE.

The guitarist might double the bass with his thumb (or omits it) and plays the accents from the tamborim pattern with fingers.

Tamborim might be /xo xo xx ox/ ox ox ox xo/

But that may be too busy. In which case I'd suggest just playing right before and after the chord changes.

So, now to the point of this ...

There is a question about how you tap your foot, because that may correlate with how you feel the rhythm.

Most people recommend tapping in two, meaning it's a 16th note pulse and you're tapping quarter notes.

But, I've seen some very find players tap in eighths.

Mostly, tapping two quarters per measure makes it easier to nail the feel, IMO. But, it depends on the tempo, the song etc.

[pauln]

Seems to me that the progress of internalizing rhythm results in feeling it at progressively lower resolution... because the need to "monitor" the detail levels shifts to a kind of grasp and execution that does not need that low a level of active monitoring.

Like upshifting through the gears; continuing to monitor 1 e an da 2 e an da... lugs down playing when you have "got that" and can shift to "second gear" where you just monitor 1 an 2 an... then third gear as 1 2... and get to where you just need to know "1" and the rest falls into place without monitoring or counting... just works by rhythmic feel naturally filling the possibilities between and across the "1s".

In solo phrasing, one develops the ability to "hear ahead" how a stream of notes and rests of various duration will fit into the time segments of the movement of the music - through a chord duration, across a chord change, accounting for lead-in notes, or reflecting various "irregular" spans implied by the melody, etc. From my own self observation, it appears that what I do is take the melodic line or phrase that I want to hear and impose a rhythm on it by intuitively feeling the number of notes in the line or phrase and intuitively "forecasting" a rhythmic pattern that will nicely lay the notes down into a coherent and appropriate way that fits the time interval - in such a way that it sounds natural, not squeezed in or drawn out or otherwise "corrected" in order to fit.

Don't most of you instinctively know or feel that a spontaneous phrase has an odd or even number of notes and that the duration for which the phrase is to span has either an odd or even number of "beats" (at whatever resolution you are geared for)? Think about how you do this (at the guitar) and see if this "forecasting feeling" of notes, time, span, and phrasing doesn't sound like what's going on in your own mind. Or if not, how?

[rpjazzguitar]

Perhaps a worthwhile comparison is to consider what it takes to get comfortable playing in 7/4.

I think for many, it goes like this

At first, you can't do it. You get lost every couple of bars.

Then, you start to hear the pattern.

Eventually, you can sing a rhythmic pattern in 7/4 that sounds as natural, say, as the piano backing to the A section of Take Five.

You can then solo, phrasing very close to that pattern. But, when you start to cross bar lines, the confusion returns.

With more work, you start to feel things in 7/4. At that point, if you're playing a 7/4 arrangement of a 4/4 tune, it's confusing to go back to playing in 4/4. You're beginning to feel the 7.

At first, you might have tapped your foot 7 times per bar. But, later, you may be tapping 1 3 5 7. It feels like a double tap when you return to 1 -- awkward at first, but eventually unconscious.

Or, you may be able to feel it without tapping.

It's comparable to feeling 2/4 instead of 4/4. You just have to internalize it.

[christianm77]

Anyway, to return to the OP, counting in 2/2, or even 1/1, helps me play bebop.

[Boston Joe]

Perhaps a worthwhile comparison is to consider what it takes to get comfortable playing in 7/4.

I think for many, it goes like this

At first, you can't do it. You get lost every couple of bars.

Then, you start to hear the pattern.

Eventually, you can sing a rhythmic pattern in 7/4 that sounds as natural, say, as the piano backing to the A section of Take Five.

You can then solo, phrasing very close to that pattern. But, when you start to cross bar lines, the confusion returns.

With more work, you start to feel things in 7/4. At that point, if you're playing a 7/4 arrangement of a 4/4 tune, it's confusing to go back to playing in 4/4. You're beginning to feel the 7.

At first, you might have tapped your foot 7 times per bar. But, later, you may be tapping 1 3 5 7. It feels like a double tap when you return to 1 -- awkward at first, but eventually unconscious.

Or, you may be able to feel it without tapping.

It's comparable to feeling 2/4 instead of 4/4. You just have to internalize it.

That's kind of funny, because I've never had a problem with 7. I never couldn't do it. But I suspect a big part of that is that Pink Floyd's "Money" is in 7, and I could always feel the rhythm of the bass line if I needed to.

(To go a little OT: My favorite 7 feel is half time on the first four beats, so it feels like ONE-and-TWO-and ONE-TWO-THREE, etc.)

5/4 is another story. I struggled with that one for a while. "Take 5" helped.

ETA: Being self taught, I naturally assumed that the 8th note was the basic division. So when my dexterity got good enough that I was wanting to double time a little, I had the hardest time getting my 16ths to swing.

[rpjazzguitar]

My first 7/4 was Airto's Tombo In 7/4. Then, shortly thereafter, Mixing (Misturada).

I recounted my experience trying to internalize it in the other post.

Mixing was easier and I no longer have any trouble feeling that particular pattern.

But, 7/4 can be accented in different ways. Same, maybe worse, for 5/4.

So, it's one thing to feel Take 5, and other to feel Salidas and Banderas (Exits and Flags), which is accented very differently. Just to name one tune that I found difficult. For a real 5/4 workout, check out Edu Ribeiro's Cinco.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiGBpV9oi2M>

[gator811]

This reminds me of numerous references to the "Big Beat" - if I convert my 8ths at mm=300 to 16ths at 150 it all starts to sit better.

Swap the poles for ballads

[Robertkoa]

Thanks everyone- I am reading your posts carefully and digesting slowly to get it all !

RP Jazz..I hear the Bossas with the accent as you say - except I have only a basic understanding but good feel for some of them but limited exposure.

'Cinco ' on Youtube - EXACTLY as you say ..

The Drummer sounds like he's double time- ing the whole time .

There does not appear to be a 'Clave' for me to focus upon ..
Chico Pinheiro when he does the almost funk style expanded comping is (even better than I thought he was) easier to follow in 5 but I find that piece hard to count but I can ' hear ' without picking up my Guitar
Patterns of 123-12 / 12-123 with the primary accent
on the second ONE which fits but is not ' correct' for what THEY seem to be doing even though it fits.
I would have to 'overplay ' the Rhythm to stay in ' time ' in other words .Very interesting .


I agree that playing 'Cinco ' and not stepping all over the beat would be challenging- that is a very tight but subtle and restrained Group on the Youtube recording with Pinheiro .There is not much emphasis on the ONE though - [using a strong ONE every other Measure can be a cool thing for the dancers/ listeners on Polyrhythmic Beats - but this Tune 'Cinco' is about rhythmic subtlety - I think .
Very cool definitely not Take 5 [ always liked Take 5 even as a kid - it was like Green Onions( 4-4 I know ) to me - more Rock and Roll - Big Beat ]


I want to become more fluid and knowledgeable in these Brazilian Rhythms in order to morph them into other things but I think it is SO interesting to listen to
the way Brazil seems to have fused African/ Latin 'time'.


Even some of Brazilian Pop is more like ' Jazz ' or Jazz Fusion ( but a different type of Rhythmic elements are ' fused ').


You Guys have all turned this into an enlightening discussion !- far beyond what I said so I will read carefully to get it all.

Every post has interesting info .

When I listen to Chico Pinheiro I like his comping - the high energy voicings seems like inversions with
some neutral quartal stuff in between connecting them ..
When I am writing or harmonically improvising - sometimes I blur the line between Solo Guitar or Funky Chord Melody / and BACKGROUND COMPING for the REAL melody that I will write later ..
and I have to set up recording rig soon because I am forgetting some pretty cool stuff sometimes.

But notice in the piece ' Cinco' when Chico does the more aggressive comping - it's almost a chord melody in double time - do you Guys (.with better ears than me ) hear it that way ?

I do some advanced hybrid comping and grabbing chords on tracks for tighter time is something I have
done forever butit leads nicely into the Brazilian Stuff which leads into what I will do with it eventually ...

Even the simple Brazilian Folk Singers seem to have a little Rhythm on Acoustic which is 'different' in a good way.

[christianm77]

Well samba is such a common groove for fusion.

[Boston Joe]

So, it's one thing to feel Take 5, and other to feel Salidas and Banderas (Exits and Flags), which is accented very differently. Just to name one tune that I found difficult. For a real 5/4 workout, check out Edu Ribeiro's Cinco.

Yes, that's true. Take 5 groups it 3-2. But just listening to Take 5 a lot helped me to internalize the pulse.

One of the more interesting rock tunes I've heard is a song by the band Trip Shakespeare called "Will you be found" I'm not sure how you'd notate it, but each bar has 8 pulses, but they're grouped 3-3-2, and the bass line is composed so that you don't really hear it in any kind of 3. It's just this weird, loping kind of 4, but it works.

[DonEsteban]

IF you can Swing or even better use different types of Swing - you may think or teach ' The Basic Beat Unit of Jazz is 8th Notes ' or whatever

BUT what you are actually DOING is playing Half Time 16ths at Tempo and 16ths when you "doubletime it ".

IMO ....counting 8th Notes IF you are playing or learning to play ' Jazz ' or certain types of ' Fusion' will lead to the destruction of modern civilization.

I just don't understand it ... anyone willing to explain?

[Robertkoa]

Well...I was just saying that I have read that 'swing 8th Notes ' is the basic ' time ' unit for Jazz Soloing '
or similar .

However people who need or are taught to ' count ' in 8th Notes like Students - will count ONE and TWO and THREE and FOUR and .. which is 8th Notes
and IF you don' t swing NATURALLY or swing ALREADY counting that way will NOT IMO help and may be counterintuitive .

Counting - ' One A and A ' etc. in 16th Notes Halftime will equal 8th Notes or SYNC to them and lead to more flowing 4 note groupings that continue over the bar lines into the next measure.

Many people seem to have trouble with 'swing' not
feeling natural .

The best thing is to absorb it and then internalize it from hearing great players - copying at first but THEN internalize the ' feel '.

But some need to count etc.

But IF you count , count 16ths is my advice

[DonEsteban]

Thanks for answering.

Well for me swing 8th always equaled 8th triplets (with the middle note omitted).

Also because historically I see it as an heritage from the 12/8 tradition in blues as well as in traditional American music altogether.

The tiny difference between "technically correct" triplets and what you really play being the "secret in the sauce" that makes it swing (or not).

So I can't really follow your 16th approach, but like so often there its more than one way to go...

[Hep To The Jive]

To me it's all about subdivision of the beat, so yeah 16ths makes perfect sense, but I'm not sure it necessarily helps with 'swing feel'. I realized playing funk you have to deal with 16ths as it's rhythmic foundation of the style. It takes your technique on the next level too, but I still not sure it helps with the swing. It might, but I for one never really consciously counted the rhythm while playing, so it's always kinda intuitive.

[Robertkoa]

As I said I didn't count or learn to swing somehow it was internalized already ..I just had to force my hands to play what I was 'hearing ' ....( which I don't recommend either ).



I don't have a 'method' for swing - just to avoid 8ths for those who DO need to count and are not making much progress .

AND the misnomer or misleading IMO info that you will be a cool Jazzer IF you play swing 8th Notes
Swinging eigth notes are a fallacy - you can 't even COUNT 8th notes and make them swing- try it .

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks everyone- I am reading your posts carefully and digesting slowly to get it all !

RP Jazz..I hear the Bossas with the accent as you say - except I have only a basic understanding but good feel for some of them but limited exposure.

'Cinco ' on Youtube - EXACTLY as you say ..

The Drummer sounds like he's double time- ing the whole time .

There does not appear to be a 'Clave' for me to focus upon ..
Chico Pinheiro when he does the almost funk style expanded comping is (even better than I thought he was) easier to follow in 5 but I find that piece hard to count but I can ' hear ' without picking up my Guitar
Patterns of 123-12 / 12-123 with the primary accent
on the second ONE which fits but is not ' correct' for what THEY seem to be doing even though it fits.
I would have to 'overplay ' the Rhythm to stay in ' time ' in other words .Very interesting .

.

Glad you found Cinco interesting!

Chico's comping is always fascinating. He grooves as deeply as anybody -- including driving a band from the guitar chair better than I thought it could be done. And, he does this in 2/4 too, not just odd meter. I've heard him live many times and I can't figure out how he approaches it.

Check out his youtube video of April Child. In that one, the "chop", a two-bar-pattern groove that Moacir Santos called "Mojo" is very clear. It is playable on guitar and sounds fine. But, compared to that basic groove, what Chico does in the live performance video is in outer space. At least to me. And, yet, every note/hit/chord is perfectly in the groove.

The middle section of Popo is another one. It's a funk type groove, but his comping is something else. Don't miss the middle section of the outchorus with the offset hits. Also on youtube.

He has some lesson videos on line.

[Robertkoa]

Agreed . Chico is a brilliant groovemeister Player .

Just heard April's Child - crazy good time feel - on the main Rhythm ( futuristic Bossa ?) the Piano Player actually seems to stay out of Chico's way - Chico is the heartbeat at the center of the groove.
His voicings are brilliant too .




And when I hear his comping and creativity with the voicings and rhythms - and grooves- he has a kind of high energy feel - a unique Player for sure .

[Robertkoa]

This thread is not about picking deficiencies or improving or creating 'swing'.

More about the idea of Jazz basic time unit being 8th notes ...unless it's 12/8 or something - it's not really 8th notes .

Most Jazz recordings with rare exceptions ( like the Rhythm Guitar in Gypsy Jazz) don't have anyone really playing 8th notes to my ears.

16ths....16ths in haltime ..32nds... triplets ...quintuplets ...septuplets etc ...is what I hear .

I suspect this is one reason people who can already play such as Classical Pianists and Violinists have more trouble playing Jazz ( obviously it's more than just this) than they should.

I don't think this thread will solve picking deficiencies or improve your time ..not designed for that.

I don't want to go into a picking detour but will only say you must get even up and downstrokes and be able to accent either one regardless of how you cross strings to challenge the top guns or REALLY do the horn thing on Guitar ...


HOWEVER - pointing out the very obvious and EASIEST thing to observe :

People on Guitar who have really good ' time' have good ' time ' no matter how they pick.

Even the same Player - he plays with a pick - good 'time' , same Guy - uses his thumb - good time...
Uses Classical modified - fingers I and M = good 'time ' AGAIN .

So timing is more internal and technique is to ENABLE it to flow .
Technique is to get mechanics out of the way to play what you ' hear'.
You practice to get mechanics out of the way actually ...but this Thread is just what I think is a THEORY misnomer about Jazz and 8th Notes being the basic time unit .

@DonEsteban- yes I can hear the 12/8 thing as long as it's subtle enough ..

[DonEsteban]

"Learning Swing Feel"

Thanks for that link!

Interesting read, his other articles too, love this about the key-centers. Is exactly the way I think and play.

[Robertkoa]

Anyway, to return to the OP, counting in 2/2, or even 1/1, helps me play bebop.

Interesting - you mean you just count the beginning of each measure ...but chop it into 8 notes often ?
Just to tell if you are doing polyrhythms or even patterns that go beyond one measure etc.
Or to start a phrase on the ' and ' etc.

You mean that you count measures or half measures ( for Bossa etc.) ?

Makes a lot of sense .Did I get it right ?

[rpjazzguitar]

This thread is not about picking deficiencies or improving or creating 'swing'.

.

Maybe I'm hijacking the thread a bit here. I agree with the comment about 16ths. I hear more DA da da da than Da da DA da.

But, getting swing feel doesn't seem to have much to do with technique, or so I think.

In fact, it doesn't take much technique to achieve it. A couple of well placed notes and you've got it.

What I notice is that to get swing feel I have to be paying attention to the feel I'm getting -- and as soon as my mind wanders back to technique, I'm heading for trouble.

Since I don't often practice in swing feel, it's easy to revert to even 16ths without swing syncopation.

In fact, come to think of it, sometimes swing does sound like a kind of loping DA da DA da, with syncopation added. Bop never sounds that way to me. It's DA da da da and it doesn't include swing syncopation.

Another issue is that the rhythm section has to be swinging too. The bass especially has to be in the pocket.