Jazz Soloing is Half Time 16th Notes not eighth Notes

[christianm77]

Interesting - you mean you just count the beginning of each measure ...but chop it into 8 notes often ?
Just to tell if you are doing polyrhythms or even patterns that go beyond one measure etc.
Or to start a phrase on the ' and ' etc.

You mean that you count measures or half measures ( for Bossa etc.) ?

Makes a lot of sense .Did I get it right ?

Count in two

Advantage is you can swap between 6/8 and 4/4 also.

That reminds me - Peter Bernstein mentions putting the 4 into 3, the flip side of the coin. Waltz into 4.

But he was saying they are the same thing on some level.

Wheels within wheels

[christianm77]

Count in one for faster tempos or more openness at slower tempos

I think Wayne Shorter said this is what you need to do to take your playing out of the swing era rhythmically. I’m sure someone can supply the exact quote.

[Robertkoa]

I never count when I play .





If I am doing polymetric part and trying to figure out what it is I count ...but that's analyzing ...

[rpjazzguitar]

I find that I have to count to figure out hits, but, once I know them, I memorize them as a kind of drum fill and stop counting

[christianm77]

Well perhaps count is the wrong word, more like ‘feel in two’

Mind you dizzy used it too ‘the faster you play the slower you count,’

[christianm77]

When Peter demonstrated the 4 into 3 thing he was singing a 6/8 kind of Afro Cuban pattern. I think that’s probably a bit cooler than counting but he demonstrates the switch by tapping his hand. And how a waltz becomes a leisurely 4/4 swing.

It’s about developing rhythmic independence like a drummer. Mouth sounds can be part of that. I feel practicing synchronising my rhythms to a count or a step or whatever is good practice.

On stage sometimes if I count a quarter triplet in 4/4 it can help lock in the pulse on a medium tune, for instance.... It’s not solely for the practice room.

Maybe it’s just a product having bad time, but I find when playing a melody or anything with larger note divisions I still have to strongly audiate the beat to make sure I play it in time without accompaniment. Counting helps with that.

So try this experiment - record yourself playing a melody and come back to it the next day when you have forgotten the tempo and see if you can feel the time right away. If you can, you’re good to go on this. I am not. But it’s an area of improvement.

[Reg]

Yea, Robert,

So your either sight reading, or playing, right. Sight reading would be what works best to achieve the musical results of the composer, arranger etc... You want what your hearing to be performed by musicians sight reading... as easy as possible. So right there your getting rig of most Guitarist, right.

If your playing... using the notation as training wheels etc... who cares, use the least amount of paper as you can.

Feel.... So most musicians can't even play 16th notes at mm 200, let alone have feel. I think as Christian quotes Dizzz... the faster your playing... the slower the count and feel. The labeling of rhythmic figures is just about expressing what you want played... or after the fact, what you played.

When you get down to it.... your filling space between Targets. Those targets are harmonic, melodic.... and rhythmic.

We're talking about rhythm, right. So the rhythmic Targets are what make the feel have... shape of style, the perception of a repeating and ordered sense of repeating cycle in motion.

The filling helps create the feel of that style.... the smaller the unit of notation, the less room you have for creating the feel of the style.

So using 16th notes usually gets rid of most feels.... everything becomes 1 1 1 1 1 etc vanilla and very straight. Remember, I'm talking about notation. Fusion and funk.... use 16th note notation... but usually Funk is slower perception of pulse and the 16th to create accent pattern.
Fusion is generally more of the vanilla 1 1 1 1 etc... straight time.

I tend to hear and notate Jazz with 8ths, I can sight read 16ths and have plenty of technique etc... It's more of.... why make it more complicated than it already is?

[christianm77]

Take a look at the middle 8 of Confirmation and check out how funky it is. That’s true double time.

[Robertkoa]

Yeah ...it's easier for me to hard swing in double time than straight time obviously I am still funky in standard time but not as much ...hard swing fits all R&B and dance and Latin Styles...lazier swing..not so much .People who play way behind the beat have trouble in R&B , Funk, Latin , Bossa -the Beat is in your face .

....and my Modulations stay longer in each chordal area so easier to play over I think I can absorb the Key or Region more and groove it up rather than tightroping through the changes...lol.

I am much more a groove player than a Melodic Player.

If I play more like fingerstyle or pick +3I get nice melodies on top sometimes

I think with simultaneous Harmony underneath it may be easier to write for Guitar..




I sight read like a 2 month student ...lol.
I can very slowly 'decode ' short things ...then piece them together and play them by ear ...

Christian ..yes long notes ..I could see that ..I have done a lot of amateur and some Pro Recording ( jingles when young ) so even on analog 24 track tape ...I often had a click track in my headphones.
My last 'project ' was a Singer around 2000 I wrote and produced for ..I programmed MIDI tracks ..etc etc. I don't have that recording rig now ..( this is how much Smooth Jazz and Contemporary Pop and R&B is written and recorded. I didn't put Guitar on her Demo/ Performance CD as I was trying to conform and showcase her .

I never wrote for myself as a Soloist ..because I didn't have the Chops necessary to make a dent.
I felt I had to catch up largely to the Fusion Guys ..at least .

So I have a time reference when I record , no surprises the next day ..and I am initially following the Track , Drums etc but after a few takes I am digging in pushing the beat or lagging very lightly .

You get different ' feels ' on overdubs depending if you SYNC ( mentally , phsically ) the Guitar parts to the Kick Drum , then a different feel if you SYNC to the hats , different to the snares etc and even the duration of the Chord - SYNC to primary Kick let it ring till 4th Hi Hat hit...etc etc.

So Guitar 'loosens up' Midi Tracks and humanizes them ..as live percussion can etc. but you want it tight for feel abd everything interlocks with everything else...Jazz does not always do that.

I was not usually suprised the next day ... but just recording a Rubato Melody by itself ...no click ...
with some really long notes .. I could see that happening .

But I would tap my foot not count.



I was always recording Rhythm Parts , Fingerstyle parts , and interlocking different register different rhythm part overdubs ...not Solos in studios ..I was NOT Larry Carlton lol.

Carlton and Wes - the 9 perfect notes for the Solo - even if most of us worked out a solo for all day probably not as good as theirs.

I have one cassette where I did a Solo late 80's that sounds 90% like Carlton and I will use that as a 'head' now but that was extremely rare...I played slow with my thumb on an ES 347..It's very melodic for a whole minute to a Rhythm Guitar ..Steely Dan type thing .









'Confirmation' not 'Donna Lea 'shows the true genius of Parker ...

[Reg]

Do you mean Double time feel ...or real double time? Glad to hear your a groove player.... melodic lines suck without feel, at least when performing. Yea I live in the pocket... all pockets etc...

[Robertkoa]

Do you mean Double time feel ...or real double time? Glad to hear your a groove player.... melodic lines suck without feel, at least when performing. Yea I live in the pocket... all pockets etc...

Real double time ..easier for me to do the hard swing thing in double time. I am mixing it up more and doing tuplets etc. and standard time and long notes etc.
...even quad time ..
I probably 'hear' more in 16ths cause of R&B influence . R&B ,Hip Hop, Funk often have underlying 16th pulse or implied ..
Or Benson- he's mostly in double time and drops into standard time ...

I have no trouble swinging ..that wasn't the nature of the Thread .
I swing a hair behind Benson ..more like Norman Brown ( meaning I am very slightly later than Benson in the Beat or Measure - but more aggessive and tight than people like Metheny or most of the current crop of Jazzers ) .. that's where it is


I learned things about Jazz to write modern R&B Fusion .

I just noticed it is less ' normal ' for me to play long streams of halftime 16ths unless I break it up with long notes vibrato etc... or double time ... double time is easier to ' hear' long evolving lines for me ...odd but I 'll take it.

I have done exercises where I just play in even standard time swing ( halftime 16 ths) all over the neck BUT not the best for practicing actual lines for me because I 'hear ' pauses on longer notes etc or double time etc so I have to mesh this all into my entire History and play more of what I ' hear ' not exercises other than quick alignments .

But on another thread I want to learn about your Subs /Subs of Subs / Borrowed Subs etc. as you move away from original - very interesting and useful.