Tonal systems and their use in jazz

[Sam-]

Hi everyone.

I’m interested in hearing opinions of the many tonal systems used in jazz and how you personally approach using them to control the function of harmonic relationships in compositions and playing tunes in general. It would be great to go through the process of playing through different examples using different tonal or modal systems to demonstrate how the same set of relationships can have different results because of which tonal system they are functioning within. I’ll post something soon and hope others do too

[Jonah]

Hi

we are all intereseted in hearing opinios.

(Is there anyone interested in searching and reading opinions?)

Check the forum carefully and you'll find plenty of opinions..

[mr. beaumont]

I'm going through a late 50's Miles Davis brain jazz existential crisis mode right now...so lately I've been taking tunes with lots of chords and simplifying them greatly...to the point of where I suppose one could see them as more "modal" in approach. I'll try and post some things.

[citizenk74]

[Joseph parsley]

My next rehearsal I'm going to play around with something. I'm going to have everybody play only roots and the dominant.... And I'm going to decide in my Soloing what's the chords going to be. Experiment with chromatic and microtonal Concepts. That is if everybody shows up to rehearsal lol

[christianm77]

I'll repost here what I wrote on the 'head as backbone thread' cos I'm quite pleased with it. Is a bit of an essay, mind:
So back in the day, tunes were often written from the point of view of 'diatonic melody chromatic harmony'

So you often get things like a diatonic melody backed up with a chromatic voice leading in the middle voices.

Compositional thinking/hearing

For a very simple example take Cherokee's A section - Bb major pentatonic melody against the most vanilla version of the changes

Bb - Bb D F Bb
Bb7 - Bb D F Ab
Ebmaj7 - Eb G Bb D
Ab7 - Ab C Eb Gb
Bbmaj7 - Bb D F A
C7 - C E G Bb
F7 - F A C Eb
Bb - Bb D F Bb

So all the notes are in Bb apart from this line Bb-Ab-G-Gb-F-E-Eb-D, right?

Of course Ray Noble wrote the tune, but he wasn’t thinking about the problem of improvising on it.

Old school swing improv

You can still solo on this tune using the major pentatonic and related vocabulary - which is exactly what many of those early players did on this type of progression when not actively varying the original melody. Lester Young springs to mind.

You can also use the chromatic line to describe the chord changes.

Chord symbol hieroglyphics

Now if we put the melody notes on the chords - which is what we do in chord symbols - we write in extensions, like so (you'll see more elaborate version of the changes)

Bb6 | % | Bb13 | % |
Ebmaj9 | % | Ab7#11 | % |
Bb6 | % | C9 | % | etc

Note that however the chords LOOK the melody is strictly diatonic - pentatonic in fact. This is most represented in the Ab7#11 chord - which simple means here, chromatic chord, melody on the 3rd of the key. I'm not at all sure historically when chord charts starting incorporating the melody in this way. I would imagine it was a way of preventing clashes with the melody when guitarists became more harmonically ambitious, so I reckon probably the mid 50s? Just a guess...

Now, I think when Ray Noble wrote this he was thinking about a simple folksy melody and a chromatic counter melody. The result are the chords we read in a lead sheet, rendered down to a single chord symbol.

Bebop thinking/hearing

OK, so beboppers (according to Barry Harris) would just play over the basic chord, so we would use Ab Mixolydian on Ab7. No need to worry about whether or not we use D. It's up to the improvisor.

For instance, Charlie Parker plays Db the Ab7 on Koko (Cherokee changes) - for instance - line 13, second bar in the Omnibook, and several more times. Notice that Aebsersold has kept the chord symbols here bare bones - just the basic chord quality, no extensions.

OK, so this is what I think of as the bop paradigm. Kind of chord-centric... The classic is the dreaded ii-V lick (sorry Barry) applied regardless of harmonic or melodic context.* Parker might play subs or extensions, but he doesn’t appear overly concerned with the extensions as we might find them in a chord chart, such as above.

This was facilitated by Birds unusual facility in transposing material to all keys, which is why he could play the B section of Cherokee :-) this facility became standard for the next generation.

Current (chord scale) thinking/hearing

Now the chord scale theory paradigm, which also extends to what Jordan Klemons is teaching in a different, and very cool way with his melodic triads, would be to take these melody notes and incorporate them into extended chords that would also relate to scales.

So in this case, my chord chart becomes the basis of stacked third structures. Then we might talk about that Ab7#11 being a Lydian Dominant sound with a theoretical 9th (Bb) in it too, or perhaps in Jordan's case a Bb triad on an Ab shell voicing, because that structure supports the melody as an upper extension. (Which can lead to surprising relationships in some cases where the appropriate structures move away from the key.)

This is NOT how the song was written (Noble was a classically trained composer from the 1930's, and this stuff is a post-modal jazz concept) but it is a way to interpret what's going on for improvisational resources.

Melody oriented players such as Peter Bernstein have some element of unifying melody with the chords in this way even if they might not think in chord scales per se. In fact chord melody guitar ENCOURAGES one to think this way, as does a piano style with the two hands working together rather than separate (i.e. Keith Jarrett as opposed bop or stride).

Summary

In general I would characterise the history of mainstream jazz harmony as --> diatonic melody based --> chord only --> unified chord & melody. If that's not too Hegelian...

* BTW this might appear to contradict some things I've said about Parker elsewhere, I don't really want to go here into why it doesn't IMO.

[Joseph parsley]

I've got to disagree with you jazz is more tonal now.. what you're describing is old school. For example the number one hit today. Everyone but you.. I could be wrong but it really seems pretty basic as far as chord structures go.. I haven't listened real close..

[Joseph parsley]

I've got to disagree with you jazz is more tonal now.. what you're describing is old school. For example the number one hit today. Everyone but you.. I could be wrong but it really seems pretty basic as far as chord structures go.. I haven't listened real close.. but I wasn't hearing a lot of anything more complicated than a seventh chord

[mr. beaumont]

There's still actual jazz being made, I think that's what folks are talking about. A lot of it is very clearly in the Miles Davis second quintet post-bop and beyond vein...I hear a lot of tonal, non-functional harmony, and "modal" elements to it, actually.

I disagree that "smooth jazz" is the direction jazz is moving in. I'm not sure it's really even jazz. More like instrumental R&B.

[christianm77]

I don’t listen to smooth jazz

[christianm77]

Seriously - Smooth jazz is like something out of the 80s to me. I suppose it’s still big business, but I never come into contact with it. I’m not being snooty (but I can’t say I am sad about it.)

When I hear jazz on the stereo on coffee places, I’m glad to say it’s usually old school jazz. I head a great album of Getz and Chet live the other day....

So I might seem a bit odd, but I don’t have to deal with smooth jazz on any basis at all. I think it is a genre entirely separate from jazz.

It is a sobering point to remember how completely irrelevant contemporary jazz is from people, even from those who choose to post here.

(Either that or you be trolling, bro.... )

[rpjazzguitar]

There's still actual jazz being made, I think that's what folks are talking about. A lot of it is very clearly in the Miles Davis second quintet post-bop and beyond vein...I hear a lot of tonal, non-functional harmony, and "modal" elements to it, actually.

I disagree that "smooth jazz" is the direction jazz is moving in. I'm not sure it's really even jazz. More like instrumental R&B.

I like smooth jazz sometimes. I also like a lot of music that nobody would call jazz of any kind.

That said, what I've been listening to lately is the Reunion Project. It's jazz, for sure, but I'm not sure how to categorize it. I'm curious what others might think.

There is a studio album, some of which is on youtube. This links to a live performance of opening tune on the album.

[christianm77]

I like smooth jazz sometimes. I also like a lot of music that nobody would call jazz of any kind.

That said, what I've been listening to lately is the Reunion Project. It's jazz, for sure, but I'm not sure how to categorize it. I'm curious what others might think.

There is a studio album, some of which is on youtube. Thinks to a live performance of opening tune on the album.

Very good mainstream contemporary jazz to my ears.

[christianm77]

You know it's the mark of great musicians when they are playing a really horrible echoey acoustic and they still sound completely badass.

[rpjazzguitar]

Here's another one worth checking out. They do something particularly interesting at around the 1 minute mark.

[dasein]

I think that it's very important to define terms. "Tonal system" could have different meanings depending on the context.

Is it any music where a definite key center can be determined? That would certainly describe a huge amount of jazz.

But if someone meant it in an 18th century common practice way, the sort you'd get in a traditional university setting, with Roman numerals and "no parallel 5ths" -- that's a different story. I don't want to say it'd be entirely useless for jazz. But there's a lot of essential, necessary jazz harmonic and melodic practice that would either be "wrong" or not covered at all.

There's nothing wrong with incompleteness. I've never met anyone who really thoroughly studied European harmony, and ended up thinking it was a waste of time (and there were quite a few jazz players over the years who did). It'll enrich your music in countless ways. Just be aware of its limitations.

[wolflen]

On TV years ago I saw Rashaan Roland Kirk play two and even Three saxophones at once..to me it was "jazz" .. was there a tonal center..there was a modal sense to it as did not have a functional harmonic base that I could hear..I have heard his music on some "jazz stations" .. I dont think I will on a smooth jazz network

on the flip side on the "smooth jazz" stations I hear Wes, Hancock and some Miles-1950s and 1970s-and other jazz players..and then of course the defined "smooth jazz" tunes..but many are played by jazz players .. I realize this "pays the rent" as people buy this music and go to the concerts to hear these players..and from a musical point..it is pleasant sounding music..melodic and rhythmic..yeah it doesn't surprise you much but you do get to see some great players..who mix in some 'hardcore" in their lines just to keep the audience awake

[Robertkoa]

This is a GREAT topic and exactly what I am working on now ...as well as going backwards to get missed Theory ( Harmonic Theory - not scales over chords ).

I have realized that Pivot Chords are not the way to Modulate .
Terrible wall of fog [TWOF] =Pivot Chords

I have also realized that a Key is a huge structure ....and when actually composing - I ( and probably you too ) MUST follow the ' Theory ' of the COM - which general Music Theory rarely ( I am untrained and have not read many Theory Books - worse I have never studied with a PHD Piano Player/ Composer type - lol ) covers or addresses.

So my point is that on Guitar - we have a huge range of Colors and ways to voice chords- almost like a 4 Octave Piano .

When we play a beautiful voicing -the melodies which can be sung over it are almost totally dependent on the Voicing itself ( as the improv is ).
First the General Type = Major 7 n5 sharp 11 for example- is it's own little world while it is sounding almost regardless of whether it is a I
bVII, IV etc etc.
So Theory needs to address the COM much more - look at what notes can actually be sung over that COM ( which will place limits on scales to some extent - due to time constraints - Yes we can improv all 12 tones in 32nd notes and resolve them to Cadence Tones in the COM.
But an actual Melody - will only have Chromatic Grace Notes ..
So we have to define whether we are writing for Voice.

I think MORE can be learned thinking of voice because if its Jazz or Virtuoso Violin we have the whole Chromatic Scale .

The Composer must IMO realize that over the voicing above we only have
Root, 3rd, N5th, b5th [ depending upon which octave the Vocalist can sing either 5th ] , the n7th , the 9th

That's the Cadence Melody Notes & Grace Notes [forget scales = irrelevant ] which are possible .
THEN we have the primary, secondary , tertiary ways to resolve the chord etc etc and ways it can function as a vii ° etc. or sub as a IV or a I or Secondary vii° - and again I am talking about in a Pop tune ...

That's like Practical Theory and it usually is not addressed this way ...is it ?

[pauln]

COM is unfortunately not amenable to coherent non syndiffeonic search results on the internet... what does it mean?

Chord Of the Moment?

Chroma Of Melody?

Chunk Of Music?

[Jonah]

COM is unfortunately not amenable to coherent non syndiffeonic search results on the internet... what does it mean?

Chord Of the Moment?

Chroma Of Melody?

Chunk Of Music?

Come On Man

[Jonah]

have realized that Pivot Chords are not the way to Modulate

Why by the way? What are they then?


Actually though your post is interesting I am not sure I got... because as it seems to me the conclusion you come to in teh ened is quite the opposite to what I think is the general idea of Tonal System (or functional tonality - do we speak about the same thing?)

I am not sure I really understood it though

[Robertkoa]

Well..COM is chord Of the Moment...

If you stick a 2-5 in front of it ...it becomes a temporary key but still retains a lot of the same flavor/color as the tonic voicing..
So if the I chord is a Cmajor11-9-6
It has a different color from a Cmajor 7#11 ....harmonized differently etc...



I don't want to post wrong info ..so you can look up a Pivot Chord - it is just a way to find common ground between two different closely related Keys ...it does not work for distant Keys ...and aside from clearly ' hearing ' mentally' the Modulation - at least for myself - it is better for me to select the new Key and specific Voicing - THEN interpolate or construct a ' *harmonic bridge ' that connects where I am now to either the new Tonic ...or the beginning of the new Cadence to the New Tonic.
I don't think the Pivot Chord is as important as the Harmony Books say ......even primitive voice leading can smooth these spots over- if you are writing for Vocal - it is trickier but you just need a good common tone in the melody over the two structures ....

*this is my term - not sure if there's a standard term for it.

The problem with Pivot Chords is often the Pivot Chord itself can not be interpreted easily in both Keys - although using Tritone Sub= V or secondary V in New Key gets some distant Modulations - so Jazz expanded Tonality helps my brain bring Keys closer together...but I don't think for 'me '- that thinking about the pivot chord is as important as the Cadence to the new Key .
Also there are other Cadences besides 2-5-1s but that is the strongest easy to use Cadence - but there are others ...

I think expanded tonality of Jazz Harmony [once I mostly understand it in practical terms -usage ] merged with some Modern Harmony will make it easier for me to get a decent overview of the Subject rather than swimming in it.

[Jonah]

Robertkoa,

I am familiar with functional theory very colesely and in a practical way... I have to perform basso continuo from figuered bass in emsenble.. I practice different stuff like that and classical impro much more than jazz now

I cannot get what you mean actually ... I am not trying to be provocative... I am just missing the point a bit.

[pauln]

For those that recognize lattice theory... things that look like this:



... a little more work with a hint from the circle of fifths, leads to something like this:



Scroll down to the first video (9 1/2 minutes) to see an overview of how the harmonic wheel is constructed... don't be fooled, he starts slowly but gets there quickly.
Harmonic Wheel

Then see the PDF (24 pages) of how the harmonic wheel is used to identify pivot chords to modulate keys.
Modulation: Pivot Chords

[christianm77]

Not the lattice!!!!!