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Hello all, I've been visiting this forum for quite a while (great info here!) but this is my first post.
I've been experimenting with using altered dominants modally and have a question about the altered dominant sound in general.
So basically it goes like this:
If I play a major triad and add a b9 to it, it clashes in a "musically unappealing" way, to my ears (and according to jazz conventions). If I arpegiate the major triad I can get away with adding the b9 to a degree, it merely becomes an "avoid note", or a chromatic approach note, or however you want to approach using it melodically. So far so good, makes sense to me.
So why then does adding both the b7 and the b9 make the actual unarpegiated chord (7b9) sound dissonant, but NOT "musically unappealing"? Is this just my ears, or is this how most people hear it? I'm from the metal camp and have good understanding of theory fundamentals, but no formal training or education so maybe i missed something.
The only explanation i can think of from a physchoacoustical perspective, is that the tritone created between the M3 and b7 of the dominant chord is harmonically "softening the blow" of the b9, making is seem less clashy than it actually is, since a tritone is harmonically more dissonant than a minor 2nd. I've tried this with all altered dominant chords, going back and forth between a Maj(add altered note) chord and then adding the b7 and it always sounds better with the b7 and more clashy without it.
Apologies if this has already been addressed, but i've looked everywhere and couldn't find an explanation of what actually makes altered dominants tick so i've only been able to experiment with it and try to figure out the why using my ears. Thanks in advance!
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03-26-2018 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
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Third's are generally a great organizer. Make anything sound good . I think it's easier to hear thirds on any new type of scale.
I don't know the actual answer answer, but I would imagine that the flat seven gives your ear a context for the flat nine . Basically subconsciously relating it to minor cadence etc.
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The dominant 7 chord is supposed to be dissonant. It's intentionally unsettled so that you want to get to the tonic. Adding altered tones just makes it more unsettled.
Third's are generally a great organizer. Make anything sound good . I think it's easier to hear thirds on any new type of scale.
I don't know the actual answer answer, but I would imagine that the flat seven gives your ear a context for the flat nine . Basically subconsciously relating it to minor cadence etc
no, it's only about the voicing. jazzers play plain triads in first inversion with the b9 in the bass all the time:
xx6433 sounds ok, since the "outside" interval is a maj7 (b9-R), which is more desirable than the interval of a b9 (R-b9)
Thanks for the info guys!
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Listen to the intervals in all different combinations of 2 notes, 3 notes, 4 notes, 5 notes.
Easiest done on piano. You are on the right track when you noticed that the addition of a given note
softens the impact of a more dissonant pair. Explore this up close by playing and listening and I believe you
will arrive at a better sense of things than if given a mathematical explanation.
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Originally Posted by bako
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ted greene has a vid on youtube .. giving a master class at musicians institute years ago..he approaches the interval of the b2/b9 and demonstrates how Oliver Nelson uses it in the inner voices of chords where it is welcome to the ear..of course forming the chords ted uses may not be for mortals
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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Dissonance is an acquired taste really. Kind of similar with the use of the tritone power chord with the flat five, or extended chromatisism (many times random ) in metal.. The dominant chord is the de facto place where the "out" playing begins.
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Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
To add to what others have said above, here is a separate but complimentary perspective.
'I don't play chords, I play movement' Coleman Hawkins via Barry Harris
I like to view chords as horizontal movements into each other, as well as vertical structures. The 7b9 chord is a highly dissonant chord (more or less dissonant depending on how you voice it) but has been in use for hundreds of years, long before jazz or what we think of as modern music.
The reason for this is that classical composers were masters of setting up and resolving dissonances - this was something of an artform. I mean, basically that's what the study of classical harmony and voice leading is, to a large extent.
So why 7b9? Well I teach it by talking about two things, efficiency of the resolution and modal interchange
First of all, 7b9 is parented by the harmonic minor scale
C harmonic minor:
C D Eb F G Ab B C
G7b9
G B D F Ab
The efficiency of resolution lies in how many semitone movements it has to the target chord.
These resolutions also tend to sound more interesting if they are in contrary motion - that is lines going up and down against each other instead of in the same direction. While we can certainly slide a whole chord up down a semitone in the target chord (and this is a common guitar trope) this can sound a bit predictable if we do it all the time. If we take this G7b9 chord into an C minor triad (C Eb G), we have a couple of nice semitone movements in opposite directions.
B--->C
D---->Eb
Ab--->G
And this gives the C minor triad.
If we do the same thing in C major, we have a more efficient cadence, with three semitone movements instead of the usual two you get in a boring G7-C or G9-C. It's more efficient because of the Ab. The resolutions give you the whole major triad.
B--->C
Ab--->G
F--->E
We have basically borrowed the G7b9 chord from the harmonic minor - or looking at it another way. This is called modal interchange - interchange one mode (scale) for the other based on the same root.
This type of borrowing has been around for centuries and bebop uses it heavily too. In fact is so common we jazzers have even invented scales for it -
the harmonic major
C D E F G Ab B C
and the 8-note Major 6th diminished
C D E F G Ab A B C
used by Barry Harris and his students.
Examples of this type of progression can be found in Night and Day (C major with chords borrowed from C minor) and All The Things You Are - modulation from Ab to C instead of the expected Cm (IIIm chord.)
This is not itself an altered chord, it's simply a minor key V chord resolving to a major I chord, although it does point the way for more chromatic structures.... And we see these structures in jazz as well as classical music.
Exercise for the student (:-)) - what seven note structures do you get when the cadence is chromatically the most efficient at resolving into a major sixth chord, C E G A?
1) With a G and no F# in the chord (as it clashes with the F in a G7)
2) With an F# in the chord and no G
Furthermore i have limited this post to resolutions into triads, but of course in jazz we can have more complex major and minor chords than that with extra notes. This can give you more possibilities for creating efficient and pleasing resolutions, but I find it best to start with resolutions into the triad.
Hope that makes sense to someone!Last edited by christianm77; 03-28-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Alter
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
I tend to think major/minor interchange. In any case a lot of this theory is perhaps a little over-specified in terms of just playing solos on jazz standards. A lot depends on what kind of music you want to play.
(Also, practical applications of simple theory can take years on the guitar. I've taught students who know every theory going.... but can they play the triads (1 3 5) of a standard tune non sequentially in every position, and can they play the C major scale all over the neck with one finger and no positions, naming any note they stop on?)
Anyway, I digress. A nice little exercise is to practice the triads and seventh chords through the harmonic major. They naturally have a lot of movement and voice leading to them.
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I think its easier than that. GBDAb isn't a chord. FBDAb is. That simple :-)
They won't like this...
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
The triad with the b9 (really b2) in the bass exists, as Boston Joe said, but that's a minor, diminished, or dominant sound, not a major one. AbBDG is the top of a Bb13b9.
Of course one can play it (any combination of notes is possible) but GBDAb is more likely as some kind of passing sequence where the bass G is a pedal tone. I mean, you could think of the GBDAb as a Bm6/G or Bo/G. But, as a maj chord in its own right, I'd say it didn't exist per se.
Why does GBDAb sound so awful? Because the dissonance between the G and Ab isn't relieved by anything else, it doesn't go anywhere. Why does FBDAb sound so nice? Because it does go somewhere, it wants to resolve.
What do you think?
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Gb9 isn't a chord, any more than vtzpq is a word.
as is differing opinions within a single era.
Here's a definition of "chord" from wiki:
A chord, in music, is any harmonic set of pitches consisting of two or more
(usually three or more) notes (also called "pitches") that are heard as if
sounding simultaneously. (For many practical and theoretical purposes,
arpeggios and broken chords, or sequences of chord tones, may also be
considered as chords.
G B F Ab is a common guitar chord as G X F B D Ab.
Is G B D Ab an incomplete chord or is it Gaddb9?
I can remember seeing G X X B D Ab in classical guitar pieces, the octave lending some
breathing room to the b9 interval. Yes it did resolve which casts it in the role of a passing chord.
Jazz musicians in general, tend to name many more passing events than do some classical theorists.
There are some advantages to both perspectives, to summarize only the most important events or to
describe all the details.
G B D Ab inverted also yields Ab B D G ... AboMa7
This chord is most commonly played as a Bb13b9 or E7#9.
C D E F appears to be a chord cluster at best. How about when voiced as D F C E?
Is X X B E G C a chord?
Dave Leibman in his book on chromaticism spoke of disrupter notes.
b9 can be a powerful tool in the service of that intention in addition to
being just an expressive dissonant color.
For whatever reason, I choose to be slow to conceptually disqualify any note collection,
membership into the brotherhood/sisterhood of chordship.
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Originally Posted by bako
In general, the improvisor has a lot of leeway in terms of which chords they can choose to ignore and which ones they choose to highlight or express.
After all, the dissonant sounds are the most interesting. No one needs to hear too much of the chord that follows a V7b9, for instance, because it's resolution is so inevitable. Maybe one note would do.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by bako
Originally Posted by bako
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I barely hear "dissonant chords" as dissonant anymore (like diminished). I basically need a chord that scares small children to get the effect for myself
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
The trick is in how and when to resolve.
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as I said in my previous post..ted greens points out how over time chord voicings have evolved..to day we hear all types of 11th chords and think nothing of them..11b9 chords .. our ears adjust to common heard voicings..with more experimentation and electronic devices adding to the sound pallet..and the introduction to different tunings..the nomenclature for chords will change also..the standard 6th string guitar now has 7 and 8 strings in some versions..and more to come..and what will we call chords that contain micro-tonal qualities on some notes A7point4..why not..
Jimi Hendrix just opened the door the slightest amount to new ways to use the guitar..and the tidal wave he created is still being felt in all styles of music..there are 12yr olds that can dust most of us under the table in terms of technique and execution. I find it very exciting to be able to see some of this unfold in my lifetime..
remember when Bill Haley & the Comets were "radical" ?
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