The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I hope some of the Barry Harris people can help me to understand the traditional 12 bar blues harmony through that lense. Most confusing to me are the last four bars. These have always troubled me even before my exposure to Barry Harris. I remember many years ago in college I was taking a course on West African Culture and the professor discussed the 12 bar blues as coming out of traditional call and response. First two bars: call, next two: response, Five and six: challenge, seven and eight: affirmation, last four: exposition.

    Ok, I know that sounds super egghead and divorced from reality. But as a blues player I always remembered that. It helped with my phrasing and kept me from getting too deep into noodling.

    From my limited exposure to BH, I can see the first call/response (1-4) as being in the home of the tonic with movement within that home base. The next set (5-8) takes me away to the subdominant and returns me home. It is the last four where I get fuzzy.

    My sense from BH is that the dominant is unsettled. An area of transition. Not a destination in an of itself. So how do I deal with bars 9-10? They must be something of a destination, don't they? Even if I treat the last two as a turnaround, where am I for the first two? In a major blues, the V6 doesn't sound right at all. To bland, too much the iii7. Do I spend the whole eight bars stressing dims? That feels too lost in the weeds.

    Anyhow, late night musings. I know there will be many who will say just don't think about and play. Fair enough. But for those out there who are theory nerds like me, what are your thoughts?

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  3. #2

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    Blues Theory through the Barry Harris lens?-01727dda-34a8-4440-85fc-5e2740bcb61f-jpgHere’s the starting point. This from his book/cd set. He plays regular dominants like anyone else. The 6 dim stuff is really cool, but you won’t be able to use it for everything. Barry doesn’t, and wouldn’t want anyone to.

    I asked this question to Alan K a couple years ago when I was getting started (I thought the 6 dim scales was the whole thing), and he said “try the Monk moves for a few choruses.” That’s good advice that I can pass on

  4. #3

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    Bend until it sounds right.

  5. #4

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    Well it’s essentially all about V7 so I would explore all the dominant options, dom7/dim, min6/dim (page 19), and just diminished chords, and see what you can get moving around within those, or using more than one of them.

  6. #5

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    You could use I6. This is pretty common actually.

  7. #6

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    Listen to some older BH...with Jonny Griffin. Al Cohn, even the early Sonny Stitt recordings BH isn't really a blues player... And when he uses the diminished influenced voicings and chord movement... it's just... not that blue. If you listen to Sonny, you'll hear the blues changes.

    I don't think you look at BH approach for playing the blues.

    check out these Jonny Griffin cuts ... on the 2nd one with wes, Wynton Kelly is always there, Ronnie Mathews is great with Griffin at the Vanguard... on first.


  8. #7

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    You don’t have to play bluesy on a blues.

    OTOH you can play bluesy on any standard.

    I agree with Reg - I don’t hear Barry as a bluesy player in the way that some of his peers were.

    He’s coming out of a classical thing in many ways - plays up the ways in which Parker stands in the tradition of Chopin, Bach etc - which he absolutely does.

    But there is also the blues side to Bird.

  9. #8

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  10. #9

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    A short form to make any dominant seventh chord a ii-V is to Play a major six chord a whole step below the dominant seventh chord .

    Bb6- C7

  11. #10
    Ok. I think I see. The right tool for the right job. Perhaps a BH inspired turnaround for bars 11-12, but really it’s own idiomatic thing over bars 9-10. Perhaps some dominant/dim chord scale movement per @grahambop, but otherwise not really BH territory.

    My ears were telling me something similar. Maj6 sounds were not satisfying, and even as dominant substitution chords I somehow didn’t like min6 much there either.

    Major blues are a very established thing with very strong pull to an iconic form and sound. BH is talking about something else.


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  12. #11

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    C-6 | F-6-F° | C-6 | Bb-6-Bb°

    F-6 | F-6-F° | C-6 | C-6

    Gb6-Ab7 | F6-G7 |F-6 Dm7b5 (same as F-6 actually) | F-6-F°

    Scales Arps

    1.C-6, F-6 scales and arps and F° Arp
    2.Bb7 down to the 3rd of G7 (ie, B natural )
    3. Ab7 up and G7 up

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    A short form to make any dominant seventh chord a ii-V is to Play a major six chord a whole step below the dominant seventh chord .

    Bb6- C7
    Nice.

    Bb D F G (Bb6)
    C E G Bb (C7)

    So you have two tones in common, and what you add is the 9th (always welcome) and the 11 (a more nuanced welcome. ;o)

  14. #13

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    Hey Mark, I could be wrong, but I think he just means thinking “Bb6” instead of “G-7” (same notes) preceding the the C7 chord. i think most of you guys already know about two fives. is it a short cut? Not really, but it is useful for BH students who practice the shit out of 6/dim chord scales

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Ok. I think I see. The right tool for the right job. Perhaps a BH inspired turnaround for bars 11-12, but really it’s own idiomatic thing over bars 9-10. Perhaps some dominant/dim chord scale movement per @grahambop, but otherwise not really BH territory.

    My ears were telling me something similar. Maj6 sounds were not satisfying, and even as dominant substitution chords I somehow didn’t like min6 much there either.

    Major blues are a very established thing with very strong pull to an iconic form and sound. BH is talking about something else.


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    Blues in F:
    bar 9 = Bb6/dim
    bar 10 = Gmin6/dim or Dbmin6/dim

  16. #15

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    1. There is no reference to the "traditional" 12 bar blues form in BH's 300 page method books/vids.

    2. In BH's 300 page method there are 3 pages referenced as "blues"; they outline I to VIdom. (See 3 below).

    3. BH's legacy is codifying the genius of Parker. Parker rarely played a "trad" 12 bar blues. "KC blues" is an exception. Studying Parker's improvs on this will provide authentic insight. (The Omnibook is the quickest way.)

    4. The "Parker blues", which was pretty innovative at the time, can be seen, for example, in "Blues for Alice". It's basically a diatonic circle of 4ths, with alteration of diatonic chords to doms. It's not a "trad" 12 bar blues.

    5. Almost everything Parker did was "blues" - it's V-I with dims (as alluded to By GrahamBop).

    6. The idea that BH comes from a classical or Chopin background (Chopin wasn't classical of course) is ludicrous. BH frequently refers to "classical" composers. He does this to underline the fact that African American music is an art form on the same level as "serious" European composers, rather than the “devil’s dance music” which is the patronising crap that African American musicians of his generation had to put up with. Try to see his statements in this in context, if you can.

    7. The idea that BH comes from a “classical” or Chopin background is a narrative that suits the agenda of white middle class classically trained “musicians” who are trying to position themselves as jazz musicians and/or teachers. BH started from the African American tradition of Black American church music, and he’s had more than half a century to elaborate his views.

    And please don’t tell me “oh yeah, but Bach was church music”.

    But coming back to the OP’s question… buy BH’s videos and books; that way he will earn some money, and you won’t be misled by the nonsense on this forum.

  17. #16

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    Having purchased and watched all of Barry’s videos , and still trying to work religiously on his concepts in a wood shedding kind of phase, I found that the most important announcements in all the videos were his edicts on Rhythm . I’m thinking back, as one example, the stuff he talks about when he refers to “hambone”.

    That should tell you immediately where he’s coming from. And that should not preclude the idea that he was and remains a serious musician of the highest caliber who studied extensively all kinds of Traditions . Like Chopin. As Miles Davis retorted to the classical musicians during the sketches of Spain recordings when they were mocking him, “I can do everything you can do but you can’t do what I can do“.

    As for Bird and everybody else, everything started with the blues scale, and how the major and minor blues came together in one integrated form and should not be thought of as separate and distinct entities—- you can even build chorus after chorus of rhythm changes based on adding minor blues to the major blues .

    Music develops. How does the now codified “bird blues“ form differ from the original I-4-5?

    The Bird Blues form became a microcosm of the 32 bar form, in a way.

    Back to the shed.

  18. #17

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    @NSJ an excellent point... the rhythms of jazz are not those of European classical music. Jazz rhythms are black American, not black African, not white American, definitely not white cross-trained European intermediate classical players trying to sell "jazz education'" on this forum.

    @DJG, Charlie Parker is not a pianist. And thanks for your list. You've done your homework. But you have provided no analysis, just a list :-)

    The "Parker blues" was an innovation and it's represented very clearly in "Blues for Alice".

    @DJG The idea that BH is a classical player is ludicrous. I've already explained why he makes allusions to classical music. I'll spell it out more clearly this time - it's because of racism in music, especially for black musicians of his generation, and particularly in the USA (that's why so many great US jazzers felt more comfortable in Europe).

    But let's come back to answering the question from the OP.

    - There is almost no reference to the traditional 12 bar blues in BH's method, all 300 pages of it.

  19. #18

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    Personally I have always liked BH early playing and his rhythm section work... He was vanilla... but almost everyone was. Back in the late 60's and 70's he seem to be searching for that different harmonic reference for playing Jazz.

    He really never embraced blue notes that much... stayed with typical dominant 7th chords and approached or used the blue notes as embellishments... which was what was done.... Like the example of "Bluesy" posted above, which is great etc... then obviously he didn't go down the dark road, to MM and modal references. As myself many of my generation did.

    Look blues are, harmonically the same basic functional movement of almost all music.... Tonic....Subdominant .... Dominant.

    Many even simplify that down to Tonic... Dominant.

    What somewhat changes the style of Blues is... what other chords and chord patters are used to fill in the space and create movement.

    Most Chords and Chord Patterns have harmonic references... where and why the types of chords are used to fill in the space between the target functional Chords.... The big harmonic references within the Form... In standard 12 bar blues the I IV and V chords

    The use of cycles to fill that space is also just filler with harmonic reference.... play latin blues and you'll add related II- chords to the same targets... or other latin stylistic filler changes etc...

    And as the OP realized... BH approach is more in the direction of camouflaging the Functional standard movement. Where personally that is almost the oxymoron of playing blues. Somewhat like trying to use traditional voice leading when performing Jazz.

  20. #19

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    Barry did play a modal tune once, I guess Dexter Gordon made him do it! Barry’s solo is about 4 minutes in.


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Barry did play a modal tune once, I guess Dexter Gordon made him do it! Barry’s solo is about 4 minutes in.

    I find this track oddly droll. Perhaps it’s because I’m so familiar with Dexter and Barry in the usual bop environment.

  22. #21

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    In terms of the blues - well the blues is a colour and a mood for me. The form was always secondary. Any form can be bluesy. Oleo's a pretty blues rhythm changes, for instance.

    You obviously have all these very bluesy tunes which do not have 12 bar forms - the classic 16 bar New Orleans feel in tunes like You Rascal You and Oh When the Saints, AABA tunes like Willow Weep, spirituals like Just A Closer Walk and so on, swing era riff tunes like A Smooth One - and so on and so forth.

    In terms of the original folk blues it was irregular more often than not anyway.

    OTOH it's possible to have jazz blues tunes which are divorced from this basic mood. While Bird's blues tunes always included a lot of blues - as indeed did his rhythm tunes or original compositions, quite a few bebop heads are not explicitly blues in this way.

    The most extreme example I can think of is the A section of Wave, which contains one blues inflected line towards the end, but is in general so far removed from that minor pentatonic over dominant 7th harmonic world, many players never realise it's a 12 bar blues reharmonised.

    Another might be Dance of the Infidels, which I feel is pretty unbluesy for a blues.

    In both cases, we see that melodically the I chord is major key, with a natural 7.

    As Bruce Foreman points out, the use of b7 in a blues line on a I chord is actually not all that common in the swing era and early bop era. You see a lot of major blues stuff (1 2 b3 3 5 6) and even major seventh/major key stuff, but not much minor blues scale stuff. Parker often reserves the b7 sound on the I chord until around bar 4 - in other words, he treats it functionally and resolves into chord IV classically, which is where he tends to play his blues scale stuff.

    I kind of think of the use of the minor blues on I as more of a blue note era thing - a conscious reference to the folk blues, perhaps?
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-25-2018 at 02:14 PM.

  23. #22

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    @Reg I've never quite grasped your use of the term 'blue notes' and how it relates to melodic minor harmony.

  24. #23

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    OK... it's really as simple as it sounds.... when I use blue notes, say I was arranging a melodic line that uses Blue Notes, When I voice that melody... I try and use different voicings that are derived from MM collection of notes. There is obviously more organization going on....
    but that is about as simple as I can present it.

    Much like the latest direction on this forum seems to be organized use of triads for source of creating voicings... as structural organization for controlling perception of harmonic motion etc... (everything keeps rotating through the big music door, gone one day, back again another).

    That obvious other organization could be... use of space... the Form thing, space and its organization. the rhythmic thing and it's organization,
    the organization within form using rhythm etc... The Functional thing... how one uses Function, (perception of harmonic movement), both macro and micro, to again shape space within Form. I could go on... but you probable get it...yea.

    So again I treat Blue Notes as structurally from MM Harmonic sources... not embellishments. Well I guess one could call everything beyond the tonic.... an embellishment. The other difference is I also think of Blue Notes as basically any note not in the starting harmonic reference... the first harmonic starting point.... so there are lots of Blue Notes, different notes for different contexts... and some are more Blue than others... which can be controlled by how one derives the source for that blue note..... what's the relationship etc...

    That modal clip was strange...thanks grahambop

  25. #24

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    thanks for the reply - that sort of is what I thought you meant, in fact.

    I’m going to take a look through the old threads you posted for concrete examples, don’t want to derail this thread.

    My use of the term blue notes is a bit different.

  26. #25
    EDIT: nevermind. I'm obviously VERY slow today...
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    @Reg I've never quite grasped your use of the term 'blue notes' and how it relates to melodic minor harmony.
    Yes. More on this please...

    I understand random examples but not as much big picture...

    ...b3 on dominant can be viewed as melodic "embellishment", or viewed as an an actual 7#9 from altered, you can sub the entire scale and related chord patterns/scales associated with it. Get blues chord movements analogous to harmonized blues horn charts etc.

    Learning more application of this kind of thing is at the top of my list of reg curiosities. :-)

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