Blues Theory through the Barry Harris lens?

[christianm77]

New thread?

[grahambop]

That modal clip was strange...thanks grahambop

Dexter Gordon used to do this kind of tune occasionally, e.g. So What:

[Reg]

Yea thanks graham... that was the seventies, I posted another example of So what... one of the many version from 70's where the modal thing expanded, let in other groove approaches, ( we we're all getting funky), audiences loved it, we as the musicians, got blow...we're happy.... audience happy, musicians happy.... big venues for somewhat Jazz performances... those were some fun years.

I've tried to somewhat bring back those performance approaches... they almost work, many of the younger musicians just can't groove... or they feel their lowering their status etc...When your young, you think your a bad ass etc... anyway, it's about time for a comeback... I don't believe we're derailing... what else is there to figure out.
Next month at one of my gigs... most of the musicians are older... but still work... I'll bring some of those style tunes... the 70's modal thing and get some one to record a few.

We could start new thread or expand this one... either way

Hey Matt I just posted on Dom7sus chords somewhere, But I somewhat got into the MM door as source for framing Blue notes.

The tricky part is if one needs to figure out what the notes are and where to play them, it's hard to actually apply the approach to playing...which leads to...the same thing... "technique before playing tunes", I understand most don't believe in this approach... and then they don't get why they struggle playing etc... anyway... if rirhett, the OP doesn't mind... we could use "So What", easy tune. Yea, lets make So What bluesy using MM...

[pauln]

I agree, Barry Harris is not coming from a Blues orientation. However, knowing his love of quirky but imaginative approaches to analysis, it would not surprise me a bit if he noticed interesting things about the 12 bar Blues. I'll pretend I'm channeling him a little...

12 bar Blues form


I'm just going to call the chords 1, 4, and 5...

XXXX is a bar, XX is a half bar...


1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1
4 4 4 4 - 4 4 4 4 - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1
5 5 5 5 - 4 4 4 4 - 1 1 - 4 4 - 1 1 - 5 5


Notice the form of the chord changes... but look at it like this:


1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1
4 4 4 4 - 4 4 4 4
1 1 1 1 - 1 1 1 1
5 5 5 5
4 4 4 4
1 1
4 4
1 1
5 5


The 1 goes for eight half bars
Then the 4 and 1 each go for four half bars
Then the 5 and 4 each go for two half bars
Then the 1, the 4, the 1 again, and the 5 all go for unit (one) half bars


So...


4 bars
2 bars
2 bars
1 bar
1 bar
1/2 bar
1/2 bar
1/2 bar
1/2 bar

or, using the half bar as the unit

8 => 4 => 2 => 1


This sequence of subsequent compression, of folding, or fractal resolution of the form is the basis of the emotional mood, depth, and feel of the Blues. There are dozens of variations of the 12 bar Blues that all do this compression in various ways.
It is the turnaround (the last most compressed section) where the real impact occurs, where the statement is made, where the artist pulls from himself the juice to get his message across.


You will have noticed that a lot of great Blues players hold their mojo back until they approach the turnaround... treating it as a peak, the parts before just development to approach the peak.


This thread is about chord choices and soloing source note ideas, but my point in this post is to help frame the context of those things; because they need to be, in order to achieve that self reflective feeling of the Blues sound... a lot of that comes from instinctively being attuned to this dynamic compression of the Blues form. Its mechanism and effect is kind of similar to the pressure you hear in chord function, but in the Blues this compression of the form reinforces the push of the chord changes in an emergent way that underlies the Blues sound... it suggests an emotional framework within which to coordinate and place one's ideas, or something...


Kinda rambling, but hope you can hear what I mean, perhaps it provides another grip on grasping Blues.

[christianm77]

@PaulN there was no chord 4 in bar 10 until the ‘50s. That’s a substitution of the basic blues which is

1 1 1 1
4 4 1 1
5 5 1 1

Listen to the solo section of Royal Garden Blues with Charlie Christian and Benny Goodman for instance.

I bring it up because jazz substitution formulae, including the BH scheme above, make more sense if you leave out that 4 chord.

[tamirgal]

Every time I hear Barry on a blues, no matter if it's new Barry or old Barry, I'm always amazed by his phrasings.
Check out these:
Passport (from breaking it up)
First Time Ever (from First Time Ever)
Sweet Sewanee Blues (from Vicissitudes)
Parke's Mood (from Live at Maybeck Recital Hall)

And the list goes on and on...

Oh, and yeah, there's this one:

Cheers.

[ragman1]

Or if you just want the tune:

[joe2758]

the balance of blues to pretty is a wonderful decision all players have the blessing of being able to choose for themselves. Whether you’re bluesing up a standard or putting a tux on a blues

[NSJ]

Practicing a C minor blues the Barry Harris way, translated into the blues from the way he wants you to practice scales in his videos and his teaching method. It seems to me that you practice Barry Harris more than you are practicing conventional blues

1. C minor-dim scale UP to the 6th
2. Bb7 mixo DOWN from the 7th to the 3rd of G7
3. C min dim scale up to the 6th
4. Eb7 mixo DOWN from the 7th to the 3rd of C7
5. F minor-dim UP to the 6th
6. Bb7 mixo DOWN from the 7th to the 3rd of G7
7 and 8. C min dim UP to the 6th and DOWN [ Cm UP and DOWN]
9. Ab7 mixo UP
10. G7 mixo UP
11. C min-dim UP to the 6th
12. Bb7 mixo DOWN from the 7th to the 3rd of G7

Not really a conventional blues type of practice regimen, more Barry Harris theory and practice than conventional blues, but this is pretty much in line with the way he’s presented everything in his video series . It will make no sense if you haven’t watched and internalized the way he wants you to play and practice scales .

[christianm77]

Oh yeah, I was going to say, and I know there's not a huge difference on this, but would people practice Cm6-dim or C melodic minor? (I mean you could do both, obviously.)

I know Roni Ben Hur usually says m6-dim in his books

I know the added note rules for the melodic minor OTOH.

[joe2758]

I practice min6/dim when doing scale outlines of a tune. Is that what you mean? For instance on the Dm in Indiana Barry says to play D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B

[NSJ]

I practice the major and minor six diminished scales like he wants them, according to his system, seven note patterns that fill up each bar, up or down, or if they last for two measures, up and down .

C minor dim would be CDEbFGAbA.

[christianm77]

I practice min6/dim when doing scale outlines of a tune. Is that what you mean? For instance on the Dm in Indiana Barry says to play D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B

Ah OK... I usually do the MM and then apply the added note scale rules to that when I start building lines as covered on page 16 of the DVD 1 book.

But the advantage with the m6-dim is you can do the m6/dim7 thing, which is nice.

But I think there is only one example of a minor scale in the book for progression outlining?

Anyway RBH is pretty consistent about using m6-dim.

I'd be interested to know from Alan or someone what the deal is with that. I can't recall from classes if the mm is sometimes used, or whether I JUST GOT IT WRONG LIKE A CHUMP. :-)

[joe2758]

Ah OK... I usually do the MM and then apply the added note scale rules to that when I start building lines as covered on page 16 of the DVD 1 book.

omg what a n00b

[christianm77]

Incidentally, although sometimes there is a bit of tension between the Barry Harris approach and the CST thing, there is actually no reason BH can't be used to create lines within a CST framework - I think a few people have mentioned that. BH single note stuff is a way of creating lines from basic elements, while CST is a theory of ... harmony and/or 'note organisations?'*

On a very simple level using the BH added note formulae on the important melodic minor and tritone obviously gives you the lydian dominant and altered scale tonalities, in this case using the mm to get the extensions of the 7 chord.

In the case of the lydian dominant tonality the #11 isn't really stressed with the straight scale going up or down with the passing tones, as the chord tones that are emphasised are those of the m6 chord (or rootless dom9.) However, one sound I do like a lot in minor lines the major arpeggio on 5, which you get in the 3 ending on the minor chord - V major triad on minor. Obviously that gives you the obvious upper structure triad sound on lyd dominant (9 #11 13) in CST terms though BH wouldn't probably look at it like that. But it gives you the US sound within a bebop melodic context.

Probably stretching a point, but I suspect that was their origin. VI minor lines on II7, for instance - I'm thinking of Little Willie Leaps for instance.

On altered this V melodic minor triad gives b13, 1 and #9, maybe less effective...

Anyway, there's a lot more you can do besides. I find sometimes with the straight seven note CST thing it gets a bit vanilla even with interesting intervals and US triads, and I'd like to introduce more bebop into my more modern CST style playing on non-functional progressions, also to give it a bit more swing.

(Incidentally a guy who I think does the bebop meets intervallic CST thing extremely well is Nir Felder.)

As well as transcribing or getting into further concepts, applying the BH information in the non-functional modern context is an obvious way to maximise the utility of my existing knowledge.

One tune I play a lot for instance is Inner Urge... For instance, playing my bop lines in the dominant scale up a tone from the major chords sounds cool. Reason? Well if I play G7 scale on F, I am outlining a G/F chord, the classic Lydian slash chord. One person's 3rd inversion dominant is another person's lydian chord. In extensions terms - 9, #11, 13, 1.

Again simple stuff - I mean, hey, what about tritone subs on that? But I'm just starting to think about this....

(Just don't tell Barry!)

*I still don't know what that is. But I'm not naturally very organised.

[christianm77]

omg what a n00b

Haha

[christianm77]

I practice the major and minor six diminished scales like he wants them, according to his system, seven note patterns that fill up each bar, up or down, or if they last for two measures, up and down .

C minor dim would be CDEbFGAbA.

I suppose the question I would like to ask is, why not all BH 8 note scales or standard 7 note scales consistently in the scale outline?

I'm sure there's a reason. Maybe he doesn't think the mm sound outlines the minor tonality very well or something.

In practice all the scales get used...

[NSJ]

I suppose the question I would like to ask is, why not all BH 8 note scales or standard 7 note scales consistently in the scale outline?

I'm sure there's a reason. Maybe he doesn't think the mm sound outlines the minor tonality very well or something.

In practice all the scales get used...

He says in the videos and as Pasquile has also said, the reason is rhythmic, in this case, the rhythmic flow from one scale to the next—- from the point of view of fundamental practice . Remember that Pascuale said to practice seven Note scale patterns to develop a rhythmic consistency, in his videos he would say stuff like right play C major seven from the seventh down to the root, etc. So,

4 8th notes, 2 8th notes and then a quarter note in one measure.

Cm dim (one bar) to Bb mixo to the 3rd of G7 (one bar)


CDEbF (four 8th notes), GAb (two 8th notes) to A natural (quarter note) ——First measure

Ab G F Eb (four 8th notes) DC (2 8th notes ) B (quarter note, ie, Down to the 3rd of G7). The reason you describe it as B-flat seven down to the third of G7 is because in a minor tonality, the G7 has to be altered. Obviously you know this, so I apologize . Remember that he says that each diminished arpeggio-yields four dominant seventh chord that can be treated as a family of Brother and sister chords moving up in minor thirds.

From D dim you get Db7, E7, G7 and Bb7. So Bb7 from the 7th to the 3rd of G7 is just an awkward way of saying don’t play a conventional V7 (G7) scale on a minor .

[christianm77]

He says in the videos and as Pasquile has also said, the reason is rhythmic, in this case, the rhythmic flow from one scale to the next—- from the point of view of fundamental practice . Remember that Pascuale said to practice seven Note scale patterns to develop a rhythmic consistency, in his videos he would say stuff like right play C major seven from the seventh down to the root, etc. So,

4 8th notes, 2 8th notes and then a quarter note in one measure.

Cm dim (one bar) to Bb mixo to the 3rd of G7 (one bar)


CDEbF (four 8th notes), GAb (two 8th notes) to A natural (quarter note) ——First measure

Ab G F Eb (four 8th notes) DC (2 8th notes ) B (quarter note, ie, Down to the 3rd of G7). The reason you describe it as B-flat seven down to the third of G7 is because in a minor tonality, the G7 has to be altered. Obviously you know this, so I apologize . Remember that he says that each diminished arpeggio-yields four dominant seventh chord that can be treated as a family of Brother and sister chords moving up in minor thirds.

From D dim you get Db7, E7, G7 and Bb7. So Bb7 from the 7th to the 3rd of G7 is just an awkward way of saying don’t play a conventional V7 (G7) scale on a minor .

OK, I'm not sure if I understand the relevance of your reply, unless I'm missing something, so I'll rephrase:

We play 1-7,1-7-1 or 7-1 on the scales. Rhythm, great! And also, a little nap for a beat or two at the end of the bar, which given my sleeping ATM is very welcome.

This works with either (for the sake of illustration) type of major scale, standard or Barry.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6
OK, fine.

Two bars

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 b6 5 4 3 2 1

In the first case we outline a major 7th, in the second a major 6.

Again both scales work great.

So... why use a conventional 7 note scale in the case of the major and dominant chords and a m6-dim and not a standard melodic minor in the case of minor? Not that it doesn't sound good. Just curious why it's not the same for all of them.

My guess is Barry doesn't like the m(maj7) sound in that context for some reason.

[NSJ]

I’m not sure how to answer your question about how he feels about the sound of MM; it’s way above my pay grade I’m just trying to learn the stuff as they present it. All I know is that Barry said in the video that to practice from tonic to tonic is not rhythmic and Pasquale said the same thing. So if he added the flat 6 to the regular 7 note MM, That would create an eight note scale, which maybe he doesn’t like rhythmically because it’s the same thing is going from tonic to tonic which is not rhythmic as he has said.

Here’s a screenshot of how Pascuale practices modes, 3 16th notes and 1 quarter note. 7 note scales, up and down no repeating of top note.

[christianm77]

So, basically the answer is what I find myself saying to most of my students:

[joe2758]

because in the dvd book it mentions the half step rules and 5432 riffs in melodic minor, I got the idea that the default tonic minor scale was MM. Notice neither of those are on the actual DVD. I found myself practicing the ABCs for melodic minor (not mentioned on DVD OR the book) because it made sense at the time. I always practiced the scale outlines as I said above because there was a clear example.

Then I get an e-mail just now from Alan saying he's never heard Barry refer to MM.

So basically my whole life is a lie and my world is crashing down around me.

edit: Alan just confirmed tonic minor=m6 dim scale

[NSJ]

So, basically the answer is what I find myself saying to most of my students:

Hey man I’m just to Schmo that works a lot, who comess home and pets cats and practices music, if I’m not too exhausted. When Barry or Pascuale say something, I imagine I’m in the army meekly respond back “SIR YES SIR, Sir!”

Barry doesn’t mention melodic minor in any place in the videos. I have no idea how he would utilize it or how it would square with his diminished system.

[christianm77]

Hmmmm... I need to take a closer look at what he plays on minor then in terms of lines. TBH the no mm thing does not surprise me. HE never mentioned it at any classes I went to.

I do remember him demonstrating m6-dim lines in arps. And added notes on 'minor' scales... but no specification as to what minor scales.

TBF last couple of years have been dominant scale for me.

[NSJ]

Hmmmm... I need to take a closer look at what he plays on minor then in terms of lines. TBH the no mm thing does not surprise me. HE never mentioned it at any classes I went to.

I do remember him demonstrating m6-dim lines in arps. And added notes on 'minor' scales... but no specification as to what minor scales.

TBF last couple of years have been dominant scale for me.

I am very confused here why are we talking about melodic minor? His whole system is major minor six diminished. Why wouldn’t we just assume at face value that he would use the minor six diminished scale, -minor 6 arpeggios, and the Associated four note diminished arp ? In a minor blues, The important thing about the form is that the one chord and the four chord are minor, so plug in the minor 6 dim there, the V7 in a minor can’t be a conventional dipominant, so just practice the dominant seventh brothers and sisters starting with the flat nine DESC? As I said, C minor blues, you wouldn’t play a straight G7. So for practice purposes, go up a minor third, play B-flat seven down from the seventh of Bb7 to the third of G7 . Barry says stuff that like 1 million times in his 8 videos when is compelling the band to do something. Very conventional instructions by him.

All that stuff is basically Barry Harris 101, right??