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I make sense out of some non diatonic chords in progression either by seeing how they build more tension before the next chord (Vs of anything is what I mean) or simply by noticing a key change. But that minor iv chord just feels so damn right in my major keys and it even feels like I can throw it in there without a minor ii V before it and I was wondering what makes it that way. (minor third of a IV chord would be flattened sixth degree of the key Im in but that is all I got.)
Hope you all are having a good day.
Timothy
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03-14-2018 12:54 PM
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it's a great sound. I think of it as implying a backdoor dominant. So in C your F minor is implying Bb dominant.
Other cool similar things are IV to #IV dim ( often in blues), and #iv half dim (instead of the IV) to iv-6. (pretty ballad type sound)
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By the way, the standard scale for harmony for those who study Barry Harris materials is 1-2-3-4-5-b6-6-7
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If you think of it, the strong chemistry of tonality comes through that all powerful dominant chord, the sense of instability that flows from there and how it resolves. There are two strong resolution points in diatonicism, as we're programmed to hear, Major and minor.
That II V sounds good, and the IV major goes with that approach.
If you're talking and hearing the cadence from the perspective of the minor (VI) chord, the same II, V that you have in major is a IV-, bVII7 in minor. And it works with the implied tonality. WELL.... take that minor turnaround and because it sounds great in minor, why not borrow that sound when you're returning to major? Take the chords from the modal minor and use them for a little while while you're doing something in major? That's called modal borrowing, or modal interchange... find something that works in one perspective and plug it into somewhere else. Take some spices that work in one recipe and put them into the familiar family recipe we all know and it spices things up in very surprising ways.
That's what it's about!
David
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so many ways to skin a cat! Don't lose sight of sound comes first, analysis comes after
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If it's really a IV, and not functioning as the II in a backdoor II-V, I'd say it's borrowed from the parallel Harmonic Minor scale.
Originally Posted by T1mothy
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Classic harmonic device
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Any cadence is, basically, a resolution phrase, like G7 - C, and there are many variations. The word plagal comes from Greek meaning sideways or oblique. So a plagal cadence is one that sort of pops up suddenly... Originally Posted by T1mothy
A plagal cadence is one in which the tonic is preceded by the IV chord instead of the V - i.e. F - C (instead of G7 - C).
A minor plagal cadence, therefore, means the I is preceded by the (minor) iv chord rather than the IV - i.e. Fm - C.
As you say, it sounds very nice, especially if it's played as a m6. The Eb note of a Fm7 is awkward and doesn't quite resolve to CM7, but it does when the Eb becomes a D as in Fm6.
As someone else said, it's borrowed from the minor cadence Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7, the parallel minor key of C major. The Fm6 is an inversion of Dm7b5. In some versions the chords Dm7b5-G7b9 are resolved to CM7 instead of Cm7. This is called a Picardy cadence.
The 'backdoor' cadence is similar but the chords come from Eb, the relative major of Cm - i.e. Bb7 - CM7. The Bb7 can also be preceded by its ii chord - i.e. Fm7 - Bb7 - CM7. In some versions the ii is substituted for the II (the major chord) to become FM7 - Bb7 - CM7.
Why does it all 'work'? Who knows, except that it sounds okay. The ear is pleasantly surprised when Dm7b5- G7b9 is followed by a major chord. And there's a sort of chromatic interest when Bb7 shifts up to CM7. I don't know of any other reason but there may be a more scientific one
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Others have said it before me but the IVmi chord is borrowed from the parallel minor scale via the use of modal interchange. It explains common progressions like
C C7 F Fmi C
In this case the C7 is a secondary dominant and the Fmi is borrowed from the parallel minor. It's common practice and has been used for hundreds of years.
Since the 1960's modal interchange has expanded to encompass progressions that were not thought of before, namely adding the 3 major triads of the major and parallel minor scales to make this chord sequence
C Eb F G Ab Bb C
These chords explain much of the rock and roll chord movement (The intro to Proud Mary by Credence is a prime example)
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I prefer to think from hearing...
I hear two important points here... 1) voice-leading 2) specific parallel major-minor harmonic colour
voice-leading in C major
resolution to I
F to C (or E if you want 3rd in a bass and it's a triad)
Ab to G
C to C (or to B if we it it 7th chords)
Eb to E (if we take it 7th chords)
Is it plagal or authentic? I think it is more of a plagal if a 4th bass move from IV to V can be heard clearly... if not then it may sound like suspensions to V or even to I.
resolution to V (obviously G7 looks much like rootless altV chord)
F to G (and/or to F)
Ab to G
C to B
Eb to D
Is it IV-V or Valt or Vsus... to me again depoends on context, mostly on hgow stron the bass movemernts are.
Anyway mostly half step resolutions in both cases.
As a cadence it is common in some European folk music and it can be related to folk scales... it shows up in classical music during Romantic period when the influence of root music became significant (Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony, 1st Movements, Secondary theme - very typical use of it).
Very often it is IV followed by IVm. I think it's important... because it makes it sound like real plagal cadence with 3rd of IV moving chromatically to 5th of tonic.
Also to my ear - it gives a very specific harmonic colour Major to parallel Minor (you know 'chroma' means colour in Latin, and they used to say in early days of myusic that alteration makes different 'chroma' - that's where chromaticism comes from))))
To my ear - as a harmonic idioma it has softening effect, makes music here more intimate and personal.
In pop music John Lennon used it a few times - Nowhere Man, In My Life ... in both cases it is IV folowed by IV too.
Even if it is nor preceded by major IV - I believe in many contests our hearing is so much trained to hear major 3rd here that we strill hear this realtion.
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I just hear it as Eb to Abm, always a nice move.
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Sorry I did not catch it.. Could you expand a bit? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
To be honest in most cases I do not take modal interchange as explanation...
Or in other words - it is an explanation which seems to be contrived.
I do not get why would anything be borrowed from the parallel mode, what are the relations between parellel modes?
And the next point is that it creates a paradigm that has almost no internal unity... it allows almost every thing to be any thing/
Maybe it's my specific understanding of theory as of something that explains and describes music as language and so explanations should be contextually meaninglful, not just for the sake of explanation.
I admit of course that may be I just do not hear something.
I definitely do not hear parallel modes as realtive (common root - yes... but it's rather counter-realtions), and I definitely do not hear modal interchange (I only see and understand it mentally)
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No, it's not contrived. Obviously there's a connection between C major, for instance, and C minor. Playing Dm7b5-G7b9 makes an interesting variation on the usual Dm7-G7. Originally Posted by Jonah
I agree playing something from Eb major might seem a bit extreme. Otoh, it is very strongly related to C minor so using Fm7-Bb7 instead of Dm7-G7 is also technically viable... as long as it works. And it does, just about. It's certainly not a ridiculous sound. I mean, try F#m7-B7 and see what that's like!
The modal interchange idea isn't particular to jazz, of course, it's been well used in classical music for a long time.
When you say it's not really an explanation, actually it is. It's not that they took these chords at random and invented a clever name to justify it, the idea is technically and theoretically sound. And works in practice, of course.
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I understand all that. I learnt quite a lot about it. Originally Posted by ragman1
But still not convincing from audial experience.
I am not trying to say it is objectively contrived))) I am just sayng that it is like that for me so far...
Just tryiong to focus on a small example
yes.. but is it a connection between C major and C minor...? modes or keys?...No, it's not contrived. Obviously there's a connection between C major, for instance, and C minor. Playing Dm7b5-G7b9 makes an interesting variation on the usual Dm7-G7.
For me it's not that obvious
Is it modal cadence or functional?
In functional tonality parallel keys are probably most remot from one another.. and they are used like that in classical music mostly.
In modality maybe not that far... but do we have really modality here?
You see using whatever there is as an explanatory tool in theory for me first of all should be connected with semantics of its notions... like calssical cadences are strictly connected with meaning of musical langiage.
Is there any consistency about modal interchange in concern both of its mechanism and semantic application?
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Oooo I like that explanation a lot Setemup .... Originally Posted by setemupjoe
I've been trying to grok pop and rock
Tunes that use typically
In C
Eb maj , F maj , G maj
Ab maj and Bb maj
Type harmony ...
As Triads or 1&5 rock power chords or whatever
The Eb , An and Bb
can be thought of as Parallel C minor chords
Great that works for me man
Big thanks !
Love this forum sometimes
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this just an aside... but maybe someone will find it interesting. I was messing around with a tag Jimmy Bruno was talking about on one of vids. You can tack it on to the end of a tune and make as long of an ending as you want. He said it’s: A-7, D7, B half dim, E7 in the key of G and it can go in a loop. Pretty cool.
So I personally view my half dims as -6 chords. so in my automatic process i saw it like this
F6, D7, D-6, E7
I was playing all these D7 to D-6 moves. Major to minor on the fifth degree
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For A-7, D7, B-7(b5), E7 I like converting it to C6, A-6, D-6, F-6 but of course there’s many possibilities. Originally Posted by joe2758
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of course, but my point was a major to minor in another context
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I'm not an expert but I would say both functional and modal. Functional means a related system based on the IV-V-I idea. That would apply both to C major and C minor because they share a common root. The 4 and 5 chords in both keys have their roots as F and G. The 2 chord root is D and the 7 is B in both keys (C harmonic minor). Originally Posted by Jonah
The main difference, naturally, is the 3rd which is flattened for the minor key. So, if those harmonies are borrowed from major to minor, then we are inevitably into modes, can't help it. So I would say both functional and modal.
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Oops. Got it. Originally Posted by joe2758
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You see.. if it's functional... for my hearing it's a vast distance between parallel major and minor (this is the effect that SchUbert takes from it for example - sudden diversion of reality) even common cadence does not help it - this 3rd is too important for functional tonality.I'm not an expert but I would say both functional and modal. Functional means a related system based on the IV-V-I idea. That would apply both to C major and C minor because they share a common root. The 4 and 5 chords in both keys have their roots as F and G. The 2 chord root is D and the 7 is B in both keys (C harmonic minor).
The main difference, naturally, is the 3rd which is flattened for the minor key. So, if those harmonies are borrowed from major to minor, then we are inevitably into modes, can't help it. So I would say both functional and modal.
Functional is not only S-D-T cadences... but tonality areas that interact in the piece of music... it's just where my hearing comes from.
Anyway I admit it's my problem, maybe I'll hear it one day... (if not I will survive it any way)))
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I know this is contrived but wouldn't it be the simplest to think Dm7b5 - G7b9
basing it from harmonic major? Major and harmonic major only has a one note difference as compared to a parallel minor of the major scale (which has a three note difference).
Locrian Nat 2, Nat 6 (Dorian b5) - iim7b5
Myxolydian b9 - V7b9
Or Melodic Minor #11 (Lydian b3) - iv minor major 7
Dmin7b5 - G7b9 - Cmaj
or
FmM7 - Cmaj
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I think you're making it difficult. If you hear Dm7b5-G7b9-CM7-FM7 then you'll hear a minor sound followed by a major sound. It's that simple. Although it can get more complicated, of course. Originally Posted by Jonah
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No it's not... you oversimplify it))) (kidding))) Originally Posted by ragman1
You see for me bigger context is everything especially in that subtle topic...
I do not believe we can really hear such idiomatic turnarounds without context, even if there's not one like here in your sample
Dm7b5-G7b9-CM7-FM7
we presume one - just unconciously (our culture works for us)
For me relation is in how it is used im music semantically not just in formal coincidence of elements
So in that case I hear 'minor sound' and then 'major sound' as well as you.. ans it works exactly as I described it above- for me it's exteremely contrast sound and effect.
Because what I 'hear' before it could be something like
Cm - Fm7 - G7 - Cm7 followed by Dm7b5 - G7b7 - CM7 - FM7
But if before we had something like
C6 - F9 - Cmaj7 - C6/9 - and then Dm7b5 - G7b7 - CM7 - FM7
In that I hear no minor key sound - I hear heavily altered ii - v in major
So it's cultural context: if we have (and are used to) many major tunes that use this turnaround then our hearing get used it and does not take this minor cadence quality even when it is abstracted from real context...
But if we listent lots of Schubert then it's different...Last edited by Jonah; 03-17-2018 at 03:42 AM.
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