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Hi forum
I am trying to figure out the proper ways of applying the harmonic minor scale and the melodic minor scale to the dominant V-chord resolving to the im chord. I am not completely crisp on when to use what and I would appreciate your help to either correct or confirm my assumptions below.
I have encountered these two cases where I play solo over a minor progression
Case 1)
|Am | Am | Dm | E7+5 | etc. (In fact, this is Boogie Wonderland by EWF, just transposed to Am for better comparison with case 2.
In this song the melody and comping strongly dictates the usage of b7 (G) and b6 (F) over the Am. To me this will say A natural minor. For the V7 it seems that you would often use the melodic minor scale (and the derived arpeggios) one half step above the dominant chord. Ie. F melodic minor over the E7+5 chord. The note Bb is often used before targeting the Am
Case 2)
|Am | Bm7b5 / E7b9 / | etc. Eg. Black Orpheus
Here, there is very much emphasis on the notes B and G# (the line B - C - G# - B - A just sounds right when targeting the Am chord in this song) Often Am6 or Am maj7 is used as the im chord. As opposed to case 1 where it would sound not so obvious.
This is the harmonic environment where I assume you would use the A harm minor scale and the derived arpeggios on top of the Bm7b5 E7b9 chords
Is this how you determine when to use what?
Br Kamilu
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02-27-2018 05:09 PM
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So it's not that difficult.
Harmonic Minor... traditional, standard Functional usages. Where as Melodic Minor... with jazz is not generally traditional functionally used. WE use MM more from Modal approach...
The basics are obvious... right Your in A-.... the standard or traditional application and reference is
The I- chord is Natural Min. and through the standard Borrowing application, (to get Dominant function), is Harmonic Min.
The problems are the resulting notes... The V7 chord becomes ...
Harm. Min.
1 b9 3 11 5 b13 b7....add the #9, old school. Phrygian Dom. Nat. 5 and 11th
Melodic Min.
1 b9 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 change spelling 9common jazz practice, b5 or #11
1 b9 #9, b5 (or #11), b13 b7 Altered
So the notes are different...
A becoming common practice... Use Har. Min. V7 b9 b13 with Natural Minor
Use Mel. Min V7alt. with Dorian
And be aware of what your implying...
If you learn to play Montunos... not just latin but for all styles.... You'll beging to hear chord patterns and what they van imply
With Amin.
The line could be A G# G ... which is I- V7- I-
Line ............E F G... Which is I- V7 I-, (V7b9) all from Harmonic min.
With Doian and MM
Line... A G# G F#.....A- D7 A- D7
Line ...E F# G F# same
So your either using chords from embellishments.... your adding and altering notes to.. or your using harmony with implied note collections and using the chords implied from those note collections.
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Welcome, Kamilu!
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Thanks Reg for a very comprehensive explanation. I will have to reread it a couple of times untill it really has sunk in.
And thank you M-ster. I have followed the Jazz Guitar Online forums for so long time that I felt very well at home and forgot about that this was in fact my first post.
Br
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take your time to digest reg’s post, he is really really good
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Yes. Reg's posts can be very dense. Take your time.
Originally Posted by joe2758
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I also find Reg's posts to be difficult to fully understand. But, I've been watching some of his youtube videos, which I have found extremely helpful. I think it's worth the effort
That said, I'll share my view.
There are four minor scales that are commonly discussed.
HM A B C D E F G#
MM A B C D E F# G#
natural A B C D E F G
dorian A B C D E F# G.
No matter which of these you choose, A B C D and E are in the scale.
It only gets complicated when you reach the 6 and 7. Then, you have every combination of F, F#, G and G# to choose from.
That's four permutations. You can have #6 or #7, both, or neither.
It would be tempting to rename them:
M#7 HM
M#6#7 MM
M natural minor
M#6. dorian
What I'd like to contribute is the idea of simply trying each of the four possibilities against the harmony. Put on a backing track and try it each way. The math here is simple. F or F#? And, G or G#?
If you get the sounds of the 6s and 7s in your ears, you will be able to make a good choice without thinking.
Caveat: I didn't deal with other minor scales in this post. You may eventually need to address 2 or b2, for example.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-03-2018 at 07:45 PM.
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I think Reg covered the bases pretty thoroughly.
Myself, I don't really think of the minor scales as separate when creating melodies - unless I am keen to create a particular type of harmonic colour.
When I create melodies I am keen to create movement - minor scales are great for this.
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Rereading the op, I'd say don't miss one basic fact in what reg is laying out: it's NOT , (or maybe it doesn't have to be), one single scale. That's a real hard thing to grasp in the beginning. At least it was for me.
Don't look for one all-encompassing scale for changes, even just a couple of chords. It's true of all things jazz, but especially in minor keys.
A minor 251 using three completely different scales can be pretty standard and vanilla for jazz.
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Kamilu
Use whichever you think sounds best, there's no set rule.
There's only one note difference between A harmonic and melodic minor, the F#. As Reg may have pointed out, the chords (or the melody) should tell you which is applicable.
Chords that look like FM7 - Bm7b5 - E7b9 - Am7 obviously have the natural F and that says 'harmonic'. Chords that look like Am6 - D7 - E9 - Am6 and that kind of thing, obviously say 'melodic'. But sometimes the two are combined so you have to use your judgement!
But the use of melodic minors needn't be restricted to the tonic only...
Say you've got Bm7b5 - E7b9 - Am7. You could play:
- A harm over the whole thing.
- D dorian (C maj) - E alt (F mel) - Am7 or Am6.
- Outline Dm7 - G7 - CM7/Am7 (relative major over minor is permissible).
- Am blues over the whole thing.
- Pentatonics - Dm - Gm - Am/Bm.
- Other ideas like diminished or wholetone over the E7... etc etc.
They sound like this, in order, diminished and wholetone separate:
This may seem more confusing but ultimately it's more liberating than saying 'I must only ever play X over Y'. I think that's the point, really.
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Sorry. I couldn't figure this out. Originally Posted by Reg
The HM is AHM against E7. That was clear.
The MM is F MM against E7. No?
What does "use Har Min V7 b9 b13 with natural minor" mean? Which notes? A HM + A natural minor? That would be A B C D E F G# + A B C D E F G ... so basically it's A B C D E F G G#. Is that what you're saying? (I can see how that would work).
And "Mel Min V7alt with Dorian". Which notes? Is it Ealt (F MM) E F G Ab Bb C D + which dorian? A dorian? A B C D E F# G? So in total it's E F F# G G# Bb B C D. Nine notes? What am I missing?
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He's talking different scales for the different chords. If you use harmonic minor for V7, you could use natural minor for the I chord. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
If you use altered, then Dorian for your minor. With minor keys you're very often not playing the same scale/extensions for V7 vs other the other chords. Of course, Reg doesn't really limit this to minor though either.
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Thanks! I missed that. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
So, what it amounts to, if I'm getting it right now, is that for E7b9 to Am, he's suggesting playing A B C D E F G# over the E7b9 and then A B C D E F G over the Am? Is that right? I just tried it, it sounds okay with the G, but I prefer the Gb. Treat the F as an avoid note?
And, for Ealt he'll play 7th mode F melodic minor, E F G Ab Bb C D and then, for the Am, he'll play A B C D E F# G? Is that correct? That works, but I also like the F#.
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Yes...When using A-7( Natural Minor).... generally use E7 from A Harmonic Minor E7b9b13...
yes... when using A-7 (dorian) ........... generally use E7 from Fmm E7altered. ( not A-7 becoming Amm)
Instead of using borrowing, relative and embellishment.... try using subs and modal interchange.... rather than just spelling it out, give it a try.
See if you can figure out the approach for using E7alt. besides.... embellishment or standard functional harmony.
Ragmag spelled some possibilities.... but no organization right. There is very common practice organization.
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My suggestion is to build chords on all Modes/Scales derived from in this case the Harmonic Minor Scale.
The 2nd mode produces a Min7b5 chord
The 5th mode produces a Dom 7b9
The Tonic mode produces a Min/Maj 7 ll/V/I minor /Dmin7b5/ G7b9 / Cmin/maj7/
Play the C Harmonic Minor scale this is the simplest explanation to me.
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I have never studied harmony formally, although I've read some. I don't know what "borrowing, relative and embellishment" refer to. I suspect that it's all part of what I've always called "chord substitution". Originally Posted by Reg
I understand "modal interchange" as using a different mode from the same root, but I don't think I know the breadth of it. For example, I assume that it would be "modal interchange" if I went from C Ionian to C Lydian against a Cmaj7. But, does it also refer to any mode of any scale with a C root?
I'm not sure I understand "the approach to E7alt "besides embellishment or standard functional harmony".
I do it all the time, usually without thinking about anything beyond feeling the harmony and making up a melody on the fly.
If I break down what I do, I start with chord tones, usually, and pick the rest by what sounds good to me in the melody I'm trying to create. But, I'm aware that I can play Ealt (Fmm), dim, some WT (not that I usually do WT), or find a guide tone line in the flow of the harmony and embellish that.
I'm also aware that I can use a tritone sub, Bb7, and play with the extensions on Bb7 as well.
I know that I can start with the chord before and aim at the chord after, and, in between, play almost anything. I don't usually do that, but I often like it when I hear others seem to do it.
This approach results in a generally "inside" set of sounds. I often wish I could go beyond that, because I like it when other players do it, but I simply don't hear music that way. I can create those sounds by focusing on the math, but, when I do it, it's artificial, not heartfelt. And, it's usually when my solo heads south.
I haven't done enough formal study of theory, or talked in depth with other players, to know, but it seems that a lot of players use melodic cells and cycle them through harmony, or run scales and/or used memorized licks (not a criticism). I suspect that the players I truly love may think that way, although it doesn't sound like it.
My favorites are players like Jim Hall, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Carlos Santana, BB King (some more for the melody, some more for the feeling). Here's an example. There's a Desmond/Hall collaboration called Bossa Antigua. I wanted to transcribe the tune to make a chart for my band book. But, when I listened to it, the form seemed to go on forever. Eventually, I realized that the melody was 32 bars iirc correctly, and that the next 32 bars was actually Desmond's solo, even though it sounded like more melody. That is, his solo, was every bit as melodic as the head, and easily could have been the head. I feel similarly about a lot of Getz's work, particularly in the bossa nova era.
When I've transcribed Desmond, it doesn't seem that anything he's doing is all that tricky. He can make a descending maj7 arp in broken thirds sound sublime. Jim Hall is another player with a melodic and harmonic gift. Jim was a well educated musician, but his gift, to me, was his ear. He was so quick, he could make a saxophonist's clam sound good by varying the harmony on the fly.
I have the feeling that they are simply feeling harmony and creating melody without thought, based on the harmonic material they have previously internalized -- and it isn't even all that elaborate based on current standards. They just make great melody. Would they really be thinking about 5 possible minor scales over a given chord, or would they just know how the 2s, 6s and 7s sound and pick them by ear? Did they get there by working through all the theory? Maybe they did. Which is why I'm in this thread.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It's very rarely anything peculiar. It's almost always just the normal thing because that's what works.and it isn't even all that elaborate based on current standards.
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I said that. A natural minor and (first chord in my example is Bm7b5) D dorian are both C maj (to F mel). I would not play C maj to A harm (for E7), that would be bad organisation! Originally Posted by Reg
It's not Am7 becoming A mel, you just put in a m6 (F#) sound at the end maybe. At least, that's the way I do it if I want that sound.( not A-7 becoming Amm)
Unless it's E7b9 - Am7 - % - D7. I suppose then you could treat the two Am's differently... but I've never seen it.
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Use Barry Harris's Minor Sixth Diminished (8 note scale) and you have a scale for all reasons.
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OK... so playing by ears is cool... but has limitations and becomes personal and the obvious... what one thinks sounds best make suck to another.
We've gone through the standard approach for determining changes and possible references for determining those choices.... that would be called.... an analysis. That analysis can be detailed and complex... what I might come up with for personal use with arranging or composing etc... Or the analysis can be from ears... it works.
but what helps... is when what ever one used to determine chord movement and why, (function) and what the chord tones are and extensions, using the melody and common practice etc.... is when the choices are logical and they repeat.
Say I'm accompanying someone playing head and soloing... what choices they choose, (for embellishments, chord tones and extensions), generally give me directions as to what they want to play, where they want to take the solo, what and how they might want to develop anything.
And sure I can use my ears and just follow along, that's much of being in the moment, right... don't know where you've been, where it came from and no idea where it's going. Which is cool, I have good ears, understand music and have technique etc... But is that fun... No, good practice for maybe one set... after that it sucks.
Anyway, there is common jazz practice, So lets use subs, we're trying to decide on what chords are and what they might imply for note collections to pull from to help develop melody... or create your own melodic ideas etc... your solo.
So if one uses subs for organization... in the example above.... /A-7/ D- E7/ (I IV V) or / A- / B-7b5 E7 /
so Choosing that the changes and melody... imply Tonic/ subdominant and Dominant.... Could just be Tonic to Dominant if the II V or IV V are chord patterns... they function a s One chord. But keep it simple Tonic ....Subdominant... dominant
So common sub for the Dominant V7 chord is bII7, sometimes called Tri-tone sub... inverting the tritone and spelling a new dominant chord...
Generally bII7 is Lydian dominant, or Lydianb7 or mixolydian #11 or #4... (Many times notated enharmonically as b5... ) with the common choice of notes from MM reference... in our example E7.... sub is Bb7 with extensions 9, #11 and 13, from Fmm. And if we use sub of a sub.... using the new note collection... we get E7alt. also from Fmm. One approach with organization that repeats to get E7alt.
Using this approach also helps organize harmony using Blue notes... even just pentatonics.
As I've been saying for over 8 years on this forum... Jazz is, American version...
(maj / min functional harmony... the traditional approach this is the basic start the reference... harmonic minor and natural minor)
1) Modal concepts
2) Modal Interchange
3) Melodic minor
4) blue Notes
The more you can incorporate these concepts into your playing and composing... the closer you'll become to playing in a jazz style.Last edited by Reg; 03-04-2018 at 09:16 PM.
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Classical borrowing from parallel and relative minor (from a major viewpoint)... He's making a distinction between THAT older practice and what jazz players do with model interchange. I think that "embellishment", in this context, refers to a philosophy of simplify ADDING notes to diatonic or whatever the scale of the moment might be thought of to be. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
"He's just adding a G sharp there" comes from the philosophical standpoint of seeing things as simple embellishments. Whereas Reg would see that single note as doing something else, and basically reorganizing the implicit harmonic reality of that moment , ...and additionally... the directions the music MIGHT go or what an individual note MIGHT imply.
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So afterall these theoretical analagies and explanations. Try using your EAR,LOL!
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Sadly, I find the concepts difficult to grasp in this form. Originally Posted by Reg
In contrast, when I transcribe, I can usually follow the logic.
I also got a lot out of the videos reg has done on youtube. I have watched several so far. What I appreciated most was his sense of fluency, time and feel. The blues video is a good example.
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Edit: I read it again and I think I understand it. The post describes what I have always thought of as chord substitution. You can sub a Gb7 for a C7. There are two primary relevant melodic minors. One is lydian dominant and the other is alt. So, if the chord is C7 then Gmel minor creates a C7#11 sound. Dbmelmin will create a Calt sound. If the chord is Gb7, the Gmelmin creates the alt sound and the Dbmelmin creates the 7#11. They aren't any more interchangeable than the chords, which is likely to work better depends on the harmonic flow. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
This is one of the most basic applications of the mel min. I think I first got it from Mark Levine's book.
Some may be familiar with this idea in terms of playing a m9 arp a half step up from a 7th chord. It's a common sound in jazz.
I vary in the way I think and use this sound -- if I'm thinking. If I want the sound, I may use the "m9 half step up" device to make sure I get the right notes. Or, I may play a fragment, since I know the chord sound I'm trying to get is 7#11 #5 b9 #9, so altering the fifth and ninth will move things in that direction.
Then, there's the bigger issue of understanding the flow of harmony, so it depends on where the chords are going. Again, it's possible to do a lot of this by ear, but having some theoretical support can certainly help nail or expand one's ideas. Too much for this post, but one common issue is where the 7th chord fits in harmonically. ii V I is common, as is the minor version. But it might be a secondary dominant, something bluesy or more.
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I like the m6/dim 7 patterns through that scale an awful lot Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Thing is, in the situation of a minor ii V I people think you are limited to playing the movement at the harmonic rhythm of the changes. This is what I think of as excessively ‘vertical’ or ‘chord of the moment’ thinking, which I think is encouraged by using chord charts too much.
In fact the onus is on you as an improviser to create that harmonic movement in your line, and this can be different from the original changes, so long as you preserve that sense of local key area.
Which is how I think about the m6-dim scales, but harmonic minor has the same function. It’s just a minor triad + a dim 7 a half step down. The melodic minor is the same but with a m7b5 (or a m6 a step up.) These scales contain their own dominant.
A good head to look at for that is Tickle Toe by Lester Young.
Also check out as much Bach as possible. Most of our minor key harmonic language basics in jazz are very similar to what he would do - look at 2 part invention no 4 (the one Gilad plays) for instance.
There’s no need for using three scales in a minor ii-v-I but that option exists if you want it.
Also explore the semitone connections and dim symmetry. You can play in A minor
Dm6 Fm6 Am6
Take note of the voice leading.
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