Harmonic minor vs Melodic minor scale

[christianm77]

I might add that these sorts of discussions I think stem from typical guitarist blind spots.

[christianm77]

I don't see harmonic minor as being necessarily easier. As far as simple options, I'd think chord tones /arpeggios and then chromatic approaches to them etc. are starting points. That's what Bert Ligon lays out anyway, sounds like you do as well?

By the time you get to pure scale options. I don't know that harmonic minor is easier. The amount of "handling" that you have to do to evoke a 25 using only harmonic minor means you can basically play it already doesn't? With two melodic minor modes you get those voice movements more by default. Again, I don't really think scales are necessarily the starting point though either. More like arpeggios built from them.

I don't know Bert Ligon's teaching and it is unlikely will check it out for some time.

Anyway, yes to chord tones and yes also to scales.

The problem is scale based improvisation in changes is taught often in a stupid way. Students are often taught to express scales on the I chord. This is OK for modal tunes, but sounds flat and dull for changes jazz and doesn't swing.

So - what you need to be focussing on much of the time is not the scale of the I chord but the scale of the V.

This is the best way to do it because you hear everything in forward motion. You are moving towards the next chord, not expressing some static harmony, and as a result the line swings.

I can't really parse many of Reg's comments (there's a PhD in there, I reckon) but I get the drift that he kind of uses scales in the same way. I can't really tell for sure though lol.

In the A harmonic minor case, I run the scale over an E7b9 and resolve into one of the Am chord tones (triad or extension). I do not use it on Am

(The BH version of this, which incorporates the notes of Reg's proto-altered scale is to run G7 into the third of E7, or G7 into G#. The advantage of this is the BH student has already spent some time working on G7 lines by the time they come to play minor II-V-I's. It sounds awkward, but it's actually very clever from a teaching viewpoint.)

This is the way parker uses it. If you use it this way you require no 'special handling' and it sounds like Bop. Every single time. That's just for a straight descending scale.

You have to learn to use actual scales - not chord scales with a harmonic role - but major and minor scales to play bebop, because Charlie Parker and Bud Powell's music etc is full of them. Barry Harris is very occupied with this. But I understood this before I started applying BH's stuff simply because I listened carefully to the music. Bird played a lot of scales!

In this paradigm we start everything with the dominant scale. We don't bother with major and minor until a little further down the line, because to start off with, they are just resolution points.

The two melodic minor mode thing - it's cool... if you are always doing that then it creates an accent in your playing... The Boston accent! Depends what you want.

The bottom line for me is that whatever scales you use, you can't just leave a musician with a bunch of CST relationships and expect them to come up with music. You have to learn to use scales in a musical way and be able to construct meaningful musical sentences. Otherwise it's just word salad in the Lydian Dominant.

[matt.guitarteacher]

word salad in the Lydian Dominant.

:-)

[christianm77]

So for instance, you are on Am7b5 D7 in bar 8 of a 12 bar. Run G harmonic minor straight down from any of its notes for a bar and resolve to a Gm7 chord tone on beat 1 of the next (start with the triad) using chromatic passing tones or enclosures if you need them.

Give it a try if you haven’t already.

[christianm77]

If you like the CST vibe try this

On Bm7b5 play A triad
On E7 play a C triad
On Am play an E triad

I came up with this today with one of my more accomplished students using some triad relationships we were mucking around with.

[rpjazzguitar]

So for instance, you are on Am7b5 D7 in bar 8 of a 12 bar. Run G harmonic minor straight down from any of its notes for a bar and resolve to a Gm7 chord tone on beat 1 of the next (start with the triad) using chromatic passing tones or enclosures if you need them.

Give it a try if you haven’t already.

G Gb Eb D C Bb A

I've used those notes a lot, not usually in order,
generally thinking about the chord tones.

Am7b5 A C G Eb.
D7b9 D Gb A C Eb

That gets them all except for Bb, which, to my way of thinking (not that I'd recommend it) is the b13 of the D7.

[christianm77]

G Gb Eb D C Bb A

I've used those notes a lot, not usually in order,
generally thinking about the chord tones.

Am7b5 A C G Eb.
D7b9 D Gb A C Eb

That gets them all except for Bb, which, to my way of thinking (not that I'd recommend it) is the b13 of the D7.

F#!!!!!!! F#!!!!!

(Goes and lies down in a dark room for 10 mins)

Anyway, yes, none of these are bad notes over those chords.... It works very well over the ii V.

Over the Im, different story.

[rpjazzguitar]

F#!!!!!!! F#!!!!!

(Goes and lies down in a dark room for 10 mins)

Anyway, yes, none of these are bad notes over those chords.... It works very well over the ii V.

Over the Im, different story.

I thought about that! Originally I had it as F#, but I figured, if it's a descending line, maybe I should spell it as Gb. Then, although I'm convinced there's no Gb in a D7 chord, I figured, why have enharmonic spellings in a short post which is fundamentally antagonistic to intellect?

[christianm77]

I thought about that! Originally I had it as F#, but I figured, if it's a descending line, maybe I should spell it as Gb. Then, although I'm convinced there's no Gb in a D7 chord, I figured, why have enharmonic spellings in a short post which is fundamentally antagonistic to intellect?

Because I am the enharmonazi

[joe2758]

Because I am the enharmonazi

“NO Fb FOR YOU!” hopefully someone gets this

[guido5]

Soup...