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I think I've put this out there before, but how come this series hardly gets mentioned on this forum? I think it answers 90% of the theory and improv questions people on this forum are asking. Is there a better book(s) out there?
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10-05-2009 12:00 PM
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How about because there are a million books out there, and it is hard to stand out in a crowd unless you have a name (Conti, Bruno, etc) or a gimmick.
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I think the answer to the first question is simply that the late David Baker is not known all that well and the series is kind of old. it doesn't come with CDs or computer stuff, etc.. The answer to the second question, IMO, is that there may be one or two out there that compare, but it is definitely one of the absolute best. If you put it together with some of his other stuff on specific artists, it surpasses anything I have come across.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Anyway, I have made some good use of it and I will use it much more. It is a fantastic series.
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Originally Posted by derek
which highlights why guitar players need to be in the larger musical community, instead of cloistered among themselves. listen to other instruments. learn from musicians, rather than guitarists. read books about music...
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David Baker is very much alive. Originally Posted by franco6719
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Well, you know how it goes: Reports of his decease, like those of Mark Twain, have been greatly exaggerated, that's all.
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Seriously, I apologize if I caused any disturbance or confusion. Originally Posted by anarchristian
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Umm, I read Lenny Breau's biography and reread Efforless Mastery recently, does that count? Originally Posted by randalljazz
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i couldn't say...do you still think robert conti is a more significant musician than david baker?
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Originally Posted by randalljazz
i couldn't say...do you still think robert conti is a more significant musician than david baker?
Love the pic! I said name or gimmick, not significance as a muso. Conti has a name, whether earned or as a result of his guerrilla marketing team. Both he and Bruno have a gimmick, No Scales or Modes! I have never heard of David Baker before. However, I have only been a serious jazz guy for less than 10 years. He may be a jazz giant for all I know, but if some one who has jazz cds in the low 100's hasn't heard of him...?
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The latest dieting gimmick is to have your meals delivered to your door (for about a $1000 a month).
How about a Jazz course that delivered hot licks to your door? *Ding Dong* ... <open door> ... UPS guy puts trumpet to lips: ♫ ♫ ♭♪ ♮♪
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The Official Website of David N. Baker - World-Renowned Composer, Performer, & Pedagogue
as i said, guitar players need to get out more...
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I wouldn't disagree. Checked the guy's site, pretty accomplished. I will admit that I am fairly limited to what I listen to with other instruments. I tend to find someone I like and just buy their stuff. So Tatum, Peterson, Krall, Evans, and Tyner for keys, Coltrane, Parker, Getz for sax, etc. You get the idea. Originally Posted by randalljazz
The other side of this, is finding new stuff. No jazz stations here. So I go by either word of mouth, or youtube, etc. So Randall, do you know of or like his method mentioned by the OP?
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i have the three volume how to play bebop, which like all my books, i take a bite out of from time to time. they are slim volumes, but very densely packed. i highly recommend them.
also have his book on sonny rollins and his aebersold how to learn tunes. good stuff.
am not yet acquainted with his improvisation texts, but would like to (so many books, so little $).
sad that no jazz station in a town that is so much a part of the history of jazz. i am fortunate to have music choice (cable tv) jazz channel. also have learned an enormous amount from the other site. would be happy to recommend some artists i think you'd like if you wish...
(btw, no offense intended here, just good-natured ribbing...but you know that.)
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The Baker books seem to offer you the language- the vocab- of Bebop. Is it out of date? Probably is "out of date" as much of the music we listen to is, so that's ok with me. As for the Conti/Bruno "methods", this idea of learning Jazz without learning scales is suspect. Of course there are guys who play Jazz that didn't systematically learn scales, but anyone who teaches himself via just listening probably doesn't need any books, or any teacher. But let's not kid ourselves, how many of us want to do it that way? So if we decide to learn from teachers and books, it seems now we have a choice, learn from teachers who use traditional methods and those that use "self taught methods"- ie, "Pay me and I'll show you my self taught method- you don't need scales!".
Lousy sales pitch if you ask me, I mean, learning the fundamental scale forms should really only take days, 5 forms for major, 5 for melodic minor. The rest can wait, if they're ever required. All the modes required come from these forms, simply moving them around gives you all the keys. Simple enough, it's like learning 10 licks. Learning arps then becomes a little easier cos you can check if you have the right notes from your scale knowledge. Infact, scales become the back bone, the core, of all your learning, even if you never play a scale run!
I think the trick is to not master all scales and modes at lightning speed first, just start by knowing them well enough to play them slowly. That's then our alphabet. Then go on to learn the language.
That's where the David Baker books come in.....
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Don't forget that this guy is one of the fathers of jazz education too. He was injured in some kind of an accident and started emphasizing teaching. He studied all the great players solos and came to some amazing discoveries. There WERE some rules and regularities in the use of chromatics in bebop (bebop scales and patterns), the placement of chord-tones and non-chord-tones, the most common rhytmic patterns and so on. There are even some good ways to learn tunes, etc..
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No worries, that goes without saying. Originally Posted by randalljazz
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Is there any relation with Mickey Baker? (I have the jaz guitar method of Mickey Baker)
By the way, did you see his photo with wes Montgomery, on the site?
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Wait a minute. I have a major question about this though. Now that we all agree that this a great series with a lot of excellent vocabulary ideas, etc.., how exactly do you guys use this stuff. Here's what usually happens in my frustrating experience: I will work on some exercises from the first book or memorize some lines from the second book and then transpose to all twelve keys, etc.. But I still don't seem to hear this stuff come out in my general playing or only to a small extent.
In sum, how do you guys practice with it and the apply this stuff in the context of tunes?
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Personally, I try to plug new lines into everything I play. I try the line over every change it might possibly fit in. Some times it works and sometimes it doesn't but I learn from it. After doing this for a while it becomes second nature and I find my hand just reach for that line automatically and some times I play it over something that I wouldn't think would work but it does.
Repitition seems to be the key for me. I do that with everything I learn until it becomes engrained in me.
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Yep, that's it for me too. If I don't spend plenty of time plugging it in everywhere, I lose it within a couple of weeks. Originally Posted by Gramps
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ayup. it's not yours until you can play it without any conscious thought. may take 10,000 repetitions (suzuki). Originally Posted by Gramps
segovia would spend weeks (@ 5 hours a day) on a single passage. "burnish it until it sparkles."
worked out & memorized is really only the beginning.
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Precisely, that's why I am very choosy about which lines to "burnish", you can only do so many. Of course, this ultimately comprises your "style", so make sure you really love it before you start polishing.... Thankfully there's much to love! I find that I usually change stuff a little to make it lay on the guitar well. Also, a great line usually suggests another, so I find I just grab an idea to start me off and I find I start to "hear" where I want it to go, often I even hear several bars unfolding with the line starting to suggest the underlying harmony. I then find, or compose a piece to plug it in over and hope I don't forget it. Originally Posted by randalljazz
This week I resolved to start a "Licktionary" of recorded licks so I don't forget all my ideas. I'm gonna start another thread now and ask if anyone does this, and if it seems to help....
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Don't forget to learn that lick in 12 keys and starting off of each finger , on as many strings as you can Originally Posted by princeplanet
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This week I resolved to start a "Licktionary" of recorded licks so I don't forget all my ideas. I'm gonna start another thread now and ask if anyone does this, and if it seems to help....
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